Coming To DVD In 2004

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Loomis
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Post by Loomis »

Phillip - I think I take your point as to how the perception of the film can be skewed by dodgy sequels or spinoffs. To a certain extent, I agree with you.

But I think in the end that comes down to personal perception.
Personally, my view of the originals hasn't been altered by crap sequels with uncharacteristic elements.

My view of Disney, on the other hand, and their blatant attempts to cash in on everything (like any other company) has changed to the more cynical. :wink:

Disney films (as much as we like to believe they are) are no more sacred than any other film, and a sequel to a successful film is inevitable.

Look, in the end, I think the whole sequel debate comes down to personal taste. You either like the film by itself as it stands, or you don't. And that is the same with everything, making the fact that they are sequels irrelevant. If you choose to let them colour your judgment, that is your choice. I for one don't see a conflict.
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Post by 2099net »

Phillip raises some intresting points regarding 'ongoing series' (which for this post I will consider filmed sequels part of an 'ongoing series').

In my last year of high-school one of our English Literature assignments was to write an essay on 'ongoing' series of books - even taking into account everything from short stories (such as Sherlock Holmes).

We were told to take into account the formula's of the stories, the depiction of the reoccuring characters and the style of the writing overall (if the stories were written by the same person). After we handed in our essays be had a class discussion for a couple of lessons.

Our conclusion was (and something that we were obviously guided towards by our teacher) that any long running series of stories becomes a self-parody (to a certain extent).

Let's take an example close to my heart. Sherlock Holmes.

The later Sherlock Holmes stories - while not being parody as such, I would argue - certainly use the familiarity of the characters to take shortcuts when describing their motivations, actions and experiences. And when you start using dramatic or descriptive shortcuts your are lessening the impact of the writing. You're also reducing the characters or stories to their most recognisable charactaristics and therefore you are writing charactatures.

The self-parody comes into the equation when you start comparing events or characters to other events or characters. It's a sort of 'nudge, nudge', 'knowing wink' to those in on the 'in-joke' references.

But the same rules don't just apply to literature, they apply to films and tv too. Look at the later Universal Horror Movies of the 1930's and 1940's. Frankenstein's Monster was reduced from the rich, sympathetic character of the original (and Bride of Frankenstein) to a lumbering, brainless monster with no characteristics of his own. (Incidently Bride of Frankenstein is head and shoulders above the - already excellent - original film. Proving that sequels can work). Hunchbacked assistants were included, just because it was expected and the plots became lame runarounds involving brain transplants and the like. Look at M*A*S*H. While the show always kept a high quality of writing and acting - no one can deny that the last few years played to a highly successful formula for most of their episodes.

But while we considered this process was unavoidable, it doesn't have to happen to the same extent. I think J K Rowling is avoiding the trap because she always introduces new concepts and idea's into her novels, and is letting the main characters grow up. I know Harry's new attitude in the latest book has not been popular with some reviewers, but had he stayed the same I think that their would be a chance that by the last book there would be hints of unwanted self-parody.

The X-Files TV series took another route - they explicity began to write parody episodes themselves. They were saying to the audience "we know this is getting a little stupid so let's have some fun". Which meant that when they did return to their conspiracy arc and played it seriously the self-parody elements were downplayed. (Of course they totally mishandled David Duchovny's exit from the series, creating the biggest unintentional parody of all! - but that's another issue)

So far I think the Disney sequels have avoided the self-parody issue sucessfully becuase when it is done, it's sort of what the audience wants anyway. Jungle Book II pushes this to the limits with it's continuous reprises of The Bear Necessities and characters returning for no other reason than "because they were in the original". Both are "short cuts" - cheap ways of involking the original in the audience' mind. Do too many and the audience will revolt.

The Disney sequel flip-flop I keep mentioning may result in sequels that are not that original, but it does provide new outlooks on familar concepts from the original film without including lots of storytelling "short-cuts".

Of course, up until now we've had no Disney sequel trilogy to assess[*] but the Lion King 1 1/2 is coming soon. It will be interesting to see if this manages to invoke it's own storytelling or resorts to using "short-cuts" to the two other films. The fact that it's set during the original Lion King makes me think it will include more "short cuts" than most other Disney sequels - and therefore could reduce everything and everyone to their basic, most recognisable concepts.

But none of this affects the originals. Nobody would suggest the early Sherlock Holmes stories are worse because of the gradual decline in writing of the last few. Nobody would suggest that the early M*A*S*H episodes were worse because the later years tended to stick to a winning formula. Nobody would suggest that the Original Planet of the Apes movie was not a classic of cinema because the series gradually creatively flushed itself down the toilet.

It's just the way of sequels - some manage to avoid most of the dangers because the creators are aware of them. (That's why in the Emperor's Newer Groove thread my idea's for a sequel state that it should not include any animal transformations.) Some don't. But if you don't like how the sequels are progressing then you just stop buying or paying to see them.

As for quality of animation - sure it's disappointing when the animation doesn't match up to the originals. But animation is only one of the reasons I like watching animated movies in the first place. I can enjoy something like "The Powerpuff Girls Movie" or "The Wild Thornberrys Movie" as much as certain Disney films because the quality of the animation is only one of the things that attracts me to these films and television shows in the first place.

[*] Note: I'm not including the Aladdin films or Beauty and the Beast: Belle's Magical World as 'proper' Disney sequels as the Aladdin sequels are clearly based more on the TV cartoon series than the film, and Belle's Magical World seems to be based on a (unreleased) TV series too.

[**] Ooops. I've just realised we've had 3 films from Winne the Pooh - Many Adventures, Tigger's and Piglet's. :oops:
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Post by Prince Adam »

don't forget "Pooh's Grand Adventure-the Search for Christopher Robin. And there was also a 4th B&tB movie called "Belle's Tales of Friendship". But it was only 3 segements (2 episodes of Sing Me a Story and a new animated sequence that was cut from Enchanted X'mas called Mrs. Potts' Party) tied together with loose, live-action narration done by Lindsey McLeod (star of Sing me a story).
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Post by Prince Adam »

[quote="Loomis"]
But can you honestly say that the sequel has RUINED the original for you?
Does the fact that there is another film out make the original not as good for some reason?
[quote]

I'm a little late replying to this Loomis, but oh well. I agree with Philip-at the end of say Little Mermaid, all you want is to know that Ariel and Eric are finally happily married. To have them grow up and have all this stuff happen to them is terrible-you don't want them to have any more troubles, you want them to live happily ever after. And you can't just ignore the sequel.
A sequel doesn't ruin the original, it just taints the view of Happily ever After. We live in a world where there rarely are happily ever afters, and fairy tales are a way of escaping that. We want them to be perfect, from beginning to end. In a way, in order for it to be perfect, it NEEDS TO END!
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Post by Prince Phillip »

Prince Adam, I believe you are the first person to get entirely what I'm trying to say, though your explaination was a bit breifer. :) :wink:

And as stated before, the original is NOT ruined, because you can watch it again, forget all the crap that made you doubt it's quality and fall inlove with it all over again, but I do think the film, becomes a bit "tainted".
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Post by Prince Phillip »

Oh, and Loomis and 2099net, I understand and accept your points of view too. :)
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Post by Prince Adam »

Where's the avatar Prince Phillip?
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Post by Uncle Remus »

I cant wait to see The Lion King 1&1/2 and The Three Musketeers
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Post by Porce »

Gnomeo and Juliet will suck, folks... Even Michael Eisner has expressed concern that it looks tacky. This is the guy who tries to make money out of anything.

Also G&J has been described as a "Romantic comedy." Uh, last time I checked, this was a tragedy. :roll:
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Post by Prince Phillip »

Yeah, personally, I always thought G&J sounded stupid, and wasn't something like this done before... ? I remember Gnome being used in some other title...

Oh, and I'm surprised they're not calling it "The Three Mouseketeers. :lol:

We'll Gnomeo and Juliet sounds like an "Oliver and Company" type movie... meaning it's a goofy animal adaptation to a classic. Well, hopefully the next "Little Mermaid" will follow, and hopefully it will be traditional (2-D) animation...
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Post by 2099net »

Dacp wrote:Also G&J has been described as a "Romantic comedy." Uh, last time I checked, this was a tragedy. :roll:
:o

Er... I don't see anybody comitting suicide in a Disney animated film. Can you?

That said, I can't really so Disney going for a Rom-Com either. If they critisised the makers of Treasure Planet for making a "boys" film, isn't a Romantic Comedy a "girl's film"?

Romeo and Juliet is a good place to start when making an Animated film. The story contains many concepts and idea's familiar to audiences all over the world. And when all is said and done, the original Little Mermaid was a tragedy too - until Disney got their hands on it.
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Post by Prince Phillip »

Yes but Disney improved a terrible story (although the ending would have been nice if she had just gotten her soul and moved onto better things, but to end up in pergatory!?! What horrible things were going on in Han's life that he would end it in such a depressing manner?) by changing the ending... In the case of this newer movie, they would only be ruining the story, IMO.
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Post by Leonia »

I can't believe Disney is making an already bad film (Mulan) even worse with an unnecessary sequel (Mulan II). :( :cry:

If Mulan was a real person (some historians believe she was real), she must be rolling over in her grave.
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Post by Prince Phillip »

Leonia wrote:I can't believe Disney is making an already bad film (Mulan) even worse with an unnecessary sequel (Mulan II). :( :cry:

If Mulan was a real person (some historians believe she was real), she must be rolling over in her grave.
I'm afraid it gets much worse my friend, there is going to be a Mulan III, which actually started production before Mulan II, the same thing was done to Pocahontas... :(
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Post by 2099net »

About The (Original) Little Mermaid :
Some Big Brained Professor, who really has too much time on his hands wrote:The purpose of the romance is to get the children involved in the fate of someone beside themselves. After the mermaid makes her selfless decision and receives the old choice of rewards for not being good , the last paragraph puts responsibility for her fate and others into the hands of the reader, teaching us that our most personal actions have an effect beyond us, and that whether we are good or bad is material not merely to the state of our own soul and happiness but to people we don’t even know and will never see.
Is it depressing? Yes. But the concept of self-sacrifice is a worthy one, and this story introduces the concept to children. The world was a harsher place when The Little Mermaid was first written - just as the original story is a product of it's time, the Disney version is a product of "our" time.

But it also encourages children to behave themselves, just as other fairy-tales do (think "The Boy who Cried Wolf" or "Hansel and Gretel"). Just like your parents may have threatened you with the "boogieman" when you were younger, the fairy-tales of old were used as a parenting tool to keep children "in-line". Often pain and suffering is inflicted only on the naughty, arrogant or vain.
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Post by Prince Phillip »

Tue, but she could have sacrificed herself, and still had a happy ending where she was granted a soul... Instead she is forced to serve a thousand or so years of servitude or something, where for every smiling child she sees, a day will be taken off her sentece but if she sees a frowning one, then a year will be added!?! OK, so Mr. Proff. somewhere says that is suppose to make children behave, well I never got that message from it. If a child is not smiling/frowning it may be because they are sad, or are having a nightmare (I believe the children have to be asleep) a child cannot help it, and why should she be punished when she has suffered so much already, and done nothing to deserve it. One might conclude that she will never get her soul, because there will always bew unhappy children... And while I have no problem with stories meant to teach children (I think the story of Icharos is a good example) I just think this ending was not handeled well...

*Note - Icharos was the son of the famous inventor Daedalus... In a much bigger story Daedalus constructs wings for himself and his son, to escape the island of Crete and the evil king Minos... Daedalus warns his son not to fly too close to the sun of the wax, holding his wings together would melt. Icharos disobeys his father and as a result falls to his death...

This is all part of a larger story involving Theseus, and the story of the Labrynth and Minotaur, which I think could make an awesome animated movie, as stated in "Your choice of next Disney Movie" thread... :)
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Post by 2099net »

I think the sad/frowning child only adds a day to the sentance. But it doesn't really matter. The fate at the end puts some responsibility onto the children - but the real issue (IMOHO) is that the Mermaid did wrong in the first place - all the decisions she made were wrong and at the end she ends up accepting this. Basically she makes her own fate.

Of course viewed from todays eyes the actual story is not too relevent - it's certainly dated - and one could even say that she makes the right choices throughout when looked at through modern eyes (after all, we're always being told that "love conquers all" in our books, movies, tv shows and songs).

But like I say times were different then. Children had to grow up faster. They went to work sooner, married and had families of their own sooner. The story serves as a warning to what might happen if you don't conform to society's expectations and also informs them that life sometimes isn't fair or pleasent. It probably also discourages them from wanting what is out-of-their-reach. (Of course these days, adverts constantly bombard children and make them want everything that is out-of-their-reach :))

Of course such a telling these days would probably be protested as being politically-incorrect.
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Post by Porce »

What's next... Disney's adaptation to "Oedipus the King"? (How will they make the hanging and stabbing eyes into a happy ending?)
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Post by Prince Phillip »

Dacp wrote:What's next... Disney's adaptation to "Oedipus the King"? (How will they make the hanging and stabbing eyes into a happy ending?)
You know it's funny because at one time, don't ask me why, I thought it would be cool if disney did that, but I don't think that would happen in a million years!!!! :lol:

...and unless they did it exactly as the story calls for I wouldn't want ot see it...

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Post by Captain Hook »

2099net wrote:Of course such a telling these days would probably be protested as being politically-incorrect.
On the Peter Pan DVD, one of the animators says that he knows that they couldn't have had the Indians in a movie made today - and he was right! In Return to Neverland, all you see is the totem poll, which made me sad, I really wanted to see Tiger Lilly again! And the chief!
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