The Problem With Today's Disney Princesses

[Semaj]

This whole argument is ridiculous.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wETDqiKDUmo[/youtube]

First of all, active, assertive women is not the same as tomboyism, nor is it synonymous with feminism, which of course is the exact opposite of misogyny. "Payback" is an unrealistic and insufficient antidote for yesteryear's prejudices that prevented women from succeeding in a patriarchal society (or prevented blacks from succeeding in a predominantly white society). The purpose behind today's heroines is the continuing quest for human equality, where women are just as capable of living independently as they are in a relationship.

Second of all, I can say from observation that there IS a dark side to the spoils of masculinity that predates modern feminism. In fact, it has nothing to do with feminism at all, but is rather the shaming and castrating of those who fail to live up to everybody else's expectations. (This includes grown men who still watches Disney fairy tales, against the "cartoons are for kids" stereotype.) Many men today would prefer to combat social stigma by being confident with who they are as individuals, instead of constantly having to prove how MACHO they are to everyone.

Knowing and accepting individual strengths and weaknesses is essential to succeeding independently and succeeding in a relationship. If such an arrangement involves the lady being the breadwinner, or the man taking the woman's name upon marriage, so be it.

Given how filmmaking is still a male-dominant industry, I don't think it's even possible for Disney's films to profess the feminism they're often accused of.

[Disney Duster]

The only reason being submissive and demure are classic Disney Princess qualities is because those were the expectations of women in general when the early Disney movies were made. Thankfully society has moved on, and the art of our culture reflects that.

Or not. First of all I wouldn't say the first, classic Disney princesses were always submissive. They were at times, but then they tried to overcome that. But second of all, Disney's first, classic princesses weren't necessarily the way they were because of society, but because that was how they were written in the original fairy tales they came from.

[Lady Cluck]

Sorry but it's true. Disney never follows the original fairy tales exactly, and some don't even have an official original text, so that doesn't hold up as an excuse. The princesses of the 1930s, 40s, and 50s reflect the idealized standard of femininity of those eras.

[Disney Duster]

I disagree. It does hold up. They did have original sources. The Grimm's and Perrault's texts of the fairy tales are exactly where they got their versions of the princesses from. Disney may have departed some from their original sources in some ways, but they stuck very closely to the fairy tales. It's only the Renaissance and now today's Disney fairy tales they have strayed soooo heavily.

[Lady Cluck]

The fairy tales may provide a general story and moral, but Disney created the personalities and demeanors of the characters. Their style of dress/hair and the voice actresses picked were influenced by their respective eras so why wouldn't everything else? This is true in all media, not just Disney films. To deny it is willful ignorance. Everything is a product of its time. It's not necessarily bad, but some things aren't worth going back to.

[Angeldude98]

Wow! I love this! I knew it would ignite a firestorm, and for as much as I got personally attacked and called names, even after I said "let's discuss this amicably" (that's today's feminism for you), I see that several of the commenters got my point and agree with me on several things. And for the record, I'm a young white Western European man, not a troll, not an old guy, not amish, not muslim, and in the past I've dated plenty of girls that fit my expectations. No lack of good prospects in that department. The problem is that most western women, especially American women, feel a sense of entitlement. Most men will date and have fun with the modern assertive and feminist women any time. But when it comes to picking a spouse, most men will pick a more submissive, feminine, demure and princessy girl. That's just how it is. No real man wants a woman boss at home! We want a wife, a friend and companion who will trust us to make the right decisions and will respect us as the heads of our homes as it should be. The girl power these films keep pushing are way over the top. That's why I like classic Disney much better. So do my wife and kids who are perfectly happy with our values.

[Escapay]

Wow! I love this!

I love when misogynistic meninist comments get called out for being on the wrong side of history in 2015.

Someone drop me a PM when this thread eventually crosses the line and needs closing.

Albert

[Lady Cluck]

But when it comes to picking a spouse, most men will pick a more submissive, feminine, demure and princessy girl. That's just how it is. No real man wants a woman boss at home! We want a wife, a friend and companion who will trust us to make the right decisions and will respect us as the heads of our homes as it should be.

This has to be a troll

[Angeldude98]

Meninist??? Never heard the term. But cool, if they can be feminist, we can be meninist! Now it's guy power! Lol!

[Angeldude98]

But when it comes to picking a spouse, most men will pick a more submissive, feminine, demure and princessy girl. That's just how it is. No real man wants a woman boss at home! We want a wife, a friend and companion who will trust us to make the right decisions and will respect us as the heads of our homes as it should be.

This has to be a troll

Nope... just a man sticking up for my fellow men against feminism. If you have the right to be a feminist, we have the right to be "meninist" (I think I'm beginning to like that term)!

[Escapay]

I do not use the term "meninist" as a compliment.

Albert

[Angeldude98]

I do not use the term "meninist" as a compliment.

Albert

B

No problem! I still like it! I'm a proud "meninist" then!

[Wonderlicious]

I'd like to hear the opinions of the men who are not too chicken to say how they really feel about this issue.

Well, you asked for it. I'm a dude, I see women as my equal and believe feminism is a positive force in our society. I applaud Disney's progressive female heroines, and I hope they continue to move forward in their characterization of females. So there.

UmbrellaFish has said what I would also have said. Above all, gender equality is paramount.

Also, let's take a look at the genre where a lot of these stories are coming from - the fairy tale. The fairy tale is an eternal genre, and part of the reason for this is that it can be easily tweaked and indeed has been tweaked by different societies in different time periods and different countries to reflect current attitudes. Victorian retellings fitted their needs, as did immediate post-war picture books as do more current versions. Fairy tales are, ultimately, folktales, and it depends on how the current folk want to adapt them.

[Atlantica]

I hope this forced "female empowering" is not the new style of every (animated) Disney fairytale movie. When Tangled was released, Rapunzel was hailed by Disney's marketing as a "new kind of Disney princess". She was independent, did not need a man etc. And with "Brave", the same thing happened again with that oh so annoying, despicable and ugly Merida. Then Pixar went all "this is a new kind of princess totally unlike all the Disney princesses, blablabla" (typical Lasseter really, "Pixar" invented the wheel", as if Disney animation did not do anything right before Pixar came along). And with "Frozen", we was told the same yet again. "New kind of Disney princess: independent, feminist, don't need a man etc".

What about Ariel? Belle? Jasmine? Pocahontas? Megara? Mulan? Have not people in the media who wrote all those articles about the new feminist Disney princesses seen those movies? Even worse, have Disney themselves forgotten all about them? When "Moana" comes in a few years, will we yet again hear talk of a new kind of Disney princess, a "strong woman" who do not need a man and who do not care for romance?

I'm afraid that upcoming Disney fairytales will continue this new trend, where only female characters seems to get the main attention. Sort of: "The princesses sells the dresses and dolls at the Disney store, so why bother to give the male roles much screentime. Also, "feminist, new Disney princesses" that does not need men are what the media/internet wants.", and "Romance is so 1950s or so 1990s, let's make a movie about a "strong woman" instead." I hope upcoming Disney fairytales can move beyond that forced "look, Disney is modern and our leading women are strong women who don't need men", give the male roles more screentime, and don't shy away from adding a bit more of romance to the storytelling.

Gosh, yes I do agree with you there. It started from Tangled then intensified with each 'Princess' film; 'this Princess is waaaay better than all our other Princesses put together!' And I also didn't care for the kind of condescending way that Kristen Bell spoke of the other Princess characters as well; she couldn't relate growing up and Anna is so much more real etc etc blah blah blah. Each and every Disney character has their own purpose and fulfils what their character should be for that film and for that time. The only exception for me is that Aurora disappears half way through Sleeping Beauty which has been acknowledged by most as a big flaw in the film.

This isn't really related to the original (a little bit alarming) main post, but just wanted to put my thoughts in.

[disneyprincess11]

Wow! I love this! I knew it would ignite a firestorm, and for as much as I got personally attacked and called names, even after I said "let's discuss this amicably" (that's today's feminism for you), I see that several of the commenters got my point and agree with me on several things. And for the record, I'm a young white Western European man, not a troll, not an old guy, not amish, not muslim, and in the past I've dated plenty of girls that fit my expectations. No lack of good prospects in that department. The problem is that most western women, especially American women, feel a sense of entitlement. Most men will date and have fun with the modern assertive and feminist women any time. But when it comes to picking a spouse, most men will pick a more submissive, feminine, demure and princessy girl. That's just how it is. No real man wants a woman boss at home! We want a wife, a friend and companion who will trust us to make the right decisions and will respect us as the heads of our homes as it should be. The girl power these films keep pushing are way over the top. That's why I like classic Disney much better. So do my wife and kids who are perfectly happy with our values.

Meninist??? Never heard the term. But cool, if they can be feminist, we can be meninist! Now it's guy power! Lol!

Good luck to your wife and daughters (if you have any).

[Disney's Divinity]

Meninist??? Never heard the term. But cool, if they can be feminist, we can be meninist! Now it's guy power! Lol!

Men already have power, and have had power for ages. And nobody's been trying to take away your power, like men are still trying to do to women even now. Honestly, what you lack is empathy. You can't imagine what life is like for a woman in your idea of the "way it should be," so of course you have no complaints. Men are the only ones who benefit from that style of living.

You don't speak for all men, so don't pretend that you do.

[blackcauldron85]

Giselle, Rapunzel, and Anna remind me a lot of myself...I can relate to parts of the other princesses, too (I try to model myself with some of Snow White's gentleness, Cinderella's dreaming; I have a lot of Ariel's & Belle's curiousity; I do have Jasmine's "I want to marry for love" idea), but Giselle, Rapunzel, and Anna are, I guess, less sure of themselves, more awkward, like me.

I do adore Tiana for being a hard worker who learns how to dream. She is different from the other princesses in that regard (of course, Snow White and Cinderella are incredibly hard workers, but Tiana wanted a restaurant, not a man!).

The problem is that most of us men prefer submissive women that will lean and depend on us, rather than strong-willed women that'll fight us to no end to get their way! Personally, when looking for women to date I avoid the strong feminist type like the plague!!! I prefer feminine, demure and submissive damsels that I can protect and be chivalrous to. That's just my personal preference.

Not knocking you, because I respect people's personal preferences, but as a woman, especially as a woman who hasn't always been treated that great by some men, I need to be self-dependent, and I have relience issues. So, using Tiana again as an example because she is amazing, she knows that she needs to support herself, and she does, at first by working 2 jobs, and then by owning her own restaurant. She doesn't need a man in the sense that maybe Snow White and Cinderella did (not knocking them, because I do love them, but they would have been essentially slaves their whole lives [they were not allowed to date, certainly!] unless their princes rescued them from that lifestyle), and I admire that about her.

we are now the ones being relegated to being portrayed as weak buffoons that are not needed by today's strong women.

I can see where you are coming from, but I think that even the as-you-put-it "baffoonish" men have some great qualities. Naveen has some great qualities- he loves music, dancing, and happiness. His nagative quality is his lack of a work ethic. So, Tiana gave him a little of that, and Naveen opened her up to being able to relax a little and have a good time! People who are in good relationships should have that balance, where they teach each other new things.

Jasmine is a picky b.... that basically says "it's my way or the highway dude!"

It's not being picky to not want to marry pompous air-heads who just want you so they can rule your kingdom... Do you want your parents to arrange a marriage for you with a woman...well, with an independent, non-demure woman? No, so you can get where Jasmine is coming from, right?

Mulan is a tomboy that has no feminitiy at all (what does Shang possibly see in her?)

Not only is she beautiful, she saved *&^%$#@ China! She's so brave and smart! And she's quick-witted.

Kristoff, Naveen, and Shang are not disempowered and at the mercy of their society like Cinderella, Snow White, and Aurora (and even Ariel and Jasmine) were. They don't sing about "Someday When My Princess Will Come," need their mother's permission to marry or do what they want, or get put to sleep while waiting for the women to come save them. And you're misusing the word "femininity" to mean weakness and passivity.

Well, how are you any different? You wouldn't submit to a woman's authority, why should a woman want to submit to a man's?

Men already have power, and have had power for ages. And nobody's been trying to take away your power, like men are still trying to do to women even now. Honestly, what you lack is empathy. You can't imagine what life is like for a woman in your idea of the "way it should be," so of course you have no complaints. Men are the only ones who benefit from that style of living.

I have seen guys being berated to no end when they try to assert themselves to their feminist and "progressive" 2015 women who will not accept their authority... ever!

I respect a man's "role" (or how he sees he fits in the relationship/family), and I do like being the "housewife" who cooks and cleans and all (but while being able to work). But a man does not have authority over his wife. Women can think for themselves. There's of course teamwork when it comes to being in a relationship, but it's being a team.

[MeerkatKombat]

Ok, I realize I might be in the minority with this opinion, but here is something to discuss and debate:

Why, oh WHY is Disney making the modern princesses so feminist and untraditional??? Fairytales should be set in their time periods. I hate it how they still set the fairytales in medieval times, yet the personalities (and values) of the princesses and other characters reflect modern thoughts and perceptions! What was so wrong with a more romantic plot for Frozen??? Why does Rapunzel have to be a 2000's teenager that throws tantrums? Why did they have Giselle save the hero when it should be the other way around? Why all the craze to empower women lately??? What's so wrong with making them FEMININE and playing up their femininity? They keep portraying the modern princess (or any other girl in film for that matter) basically as tomboys! Once women complained that they were always being typecast as weak and as damsels in distress uncapable of taking care of themselves. Now they're doing the same thing to us men, and frankly, that's discriminating to us!!! The message nowadays is that women no longer need us (except to have babies if they want) and they can do anything we can. Modern films seem to suggest that traditional male and female roles are outdated and that male chivalry is dead and offensive to today's feminist women (Don't you dare open a door or pull a chair for a woman nowadays! It's offensive to them! Sheesh!!!!)! I for one think that men are and will always be the stronger sex, and while I support women's rights, I value traditional roles. The man is the leader and the head of the family, not the other way around, and I find it highly offensive that we are being relegated to being weaklings and unimportant in films. Take for instance, Tiana and Naveen in "The Princess and The Frog" she was made to be hard-working, strong and decisive, while Naveen was made to be a bufoon who didn't even know how to do anything for himself! That is so offensive to men!!!!! Yeah, they do get married and live happily ever after... after SHE teaches him how to be a man, and they live with HER restaurant business, rather than having HIM take her to be HIS princess in HIS kingdom. I think feminisim has really gotten out of control and I think that Dsiney princesses and film heroines should revert to being sweet FEMININE damsels that must be won over by the charms of the prince (yeah, I do agree that love shouldn't be portrayed at first sight and should come after the prince proves he's worthy... I did like how Hans turned out to be the villain in "Frozen". Good message there), and the princes and men in the films should be the heroes. What do you think?

You are kidding right?
I keep reading this and I just don't get it.

Must be my smaller brain.....

Sorry, shouldn't feed the Troll.

[blackcauldron85]

Just some thoughts I had about this topic (this is veering into Off-Topic territory...)

It's great if you are a woman who can stay at home and pop out kids, do housework and raise the kids, and you can trust that your husband will always be there to support you, to love you. If he doesn't cheat on you, what if he gets in an accident and you have no work experience, no $ to pay for childcare?

Or you just never find a man "to take care of you," and you must become independent.

IMO, girls and women should be taught that you need to be able to rely on yourself; that's not to say that you can't always rely on others, but at least you can trust yourself, and you can make a living for yourself. Maybe it's because I have trust issues, but this is how I feel on the topic...

[Angeldude98]

Ok, let me clarify something...

I do aknowledge and respect the rights of women to make choices, have goals, have careers, and being independent. My problem is when certain - not all - women who are very feminist start bossing their men around and putting men down in general. In short, some of these women act like bullies, and they forget that they are supposed to love, honor, respect and obey their husbands, while the husbands are supposed to love, honor, protect and provide for their wives. And that is not being regressive and oppressive. The problem is that those rabidly feminist women have a problem with any man being in authority over them. And when we express something that goes against their belief, they berate us and call us names. Note that I've been called several names in this thread already, just for expressing my point of view, and have been personally attacked, yet in this thread I have never directly responded to anyone and much less responded with a direct attack or insult. We started talking about the feminist agenda that seems to be used too much in recent Disney films, and started and all out, back and forth about feminism. Yes, I do have fun with controversial topics because its amusing to see how rabidly some people react to defend or attack a point. But let's not let it get out of hand, folks. I've seen words like "alarming" and "disturbing" being used, and frankly, you have nothing to worry about. I was just expressing a personal opinion on the subject, but I'm not out to lobby and make legislation to take away women's rights or anything of the sort. We can agree or not. We have that right. I'll live my life and raise my family the way I was raised and see fit, and you run your lives any way you please. My family and I love Disney and their films, but we all know it's fantasy and I will use the plotlines and characters to teach valuable life lessons, and point out both what they are doing right, and what they are doing wrong.