Mother Gothel...loved Rapunzel? Discussion.

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Re: Mother Gothel...loved Rapunzel? Discussion.

Post by Sotiris »

I agree with everything enigmawing said. Great post and right on the money! :thumb:
Disney's Divinity wrote:I wish she did love Rapunzel though. She'd have been a more interesting character that way.
Yeah, me too. It would have been much more interesting and original if they showed that she had actually developed some genuine feelings for Rapunzel despite her initial selfish motives. They could have shown the internal struggle between her lust for eternal life and youth and her slowly-growing maternal feelings for Rapunzel. They lost a great opportunity in crafting a much more complex villain.
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Re: Mother Gothel...loved Rapunzel? Discussion.

Post by DC Fan »

What about the interpretation the actress that portrayed her says?
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Re: Mother Gothel...loved Rapunzel? Discussion.

Post by Semaj »

Sotiris wrote:Yeah, me too. It would have been much more interesting and original if they showed that she had actually developed some genuine feelings for Rapunzel despite her initial selfish motives. They could have shown the internal struggle between her lust for eternal life and youth and her slowly-growing maternal feelings for Rapunzel. They lost a great opportunity in crafting a much more complex villain.
Pretty much. Though it would've undermined Flynn's role in the film, it would've given this princess story an interesting, new dynamic.
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Re: Mother Gothel...loved Rapunzel? Discussion.

Post by 271286 »

DC Fan wrote:What about the interpretation the actress that portrayed her says?
Her interpretation is no more valid than ours, she didn't write the character. I guess any actor will try to identify with their role, so I guess she want's Gothel to be human on some level...
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Re: Mother Gothel...loved Rapunzel? Discussion.

Post by russds »

That's one thing I really enjoy in this movie, is the relationship between Gothel and Rapunzel. A mother and daughter relationship is very complex even in a 'normal' one. :) Whether or not Gothel loved Rapunzel is complicated I think, there's multiple definitions of love, it's pretty complex. On one hand Gothel is totally selfish and ultimately just wants to stay young...on the other hand she did raise Rapunzel, diapers, bottles, hyper hormone teenage years and all, so she's got to at least have some level of love and friendship with Rapunzel.

But one thing that is interesting I think, is at the end of the movie where Gothel has chained and bounded Rapunzel. She definitely shows that her love of Rapunzel's hair and the youth it brings her, is far above anything she might feel for Rapunzel the person. She was ready and willing to reduce Rapunzel to a slave basically - definitely not much love there.

I think she was a great villain because of her manipulation, and multiple layered relationship with Rapunzel.
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Re: Mother Gothel...loved Rapunzel? Discussion.

Post by Disney Duster »

Here's the question: what would we have seen if she did love Rapunzel, I ask those who say she didn't.
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Re: Mother Gothel...loved Rapunzel? Discussion.

Post by UmbrellaFish »

Disney Duster wrote:Here's the question: what would we have seen if she did love Rapunzel, I ask those who say she didn't.
I haven't commented on this yet, but I am of the "she didn't really love her" camp, so I think I'll put my two cents in.

Firstly, though, more importantly, I want to point out the things Gothel wouldn't have done-- she wouldn't have chained her up, she wouldn't have murdered her love interest in cold blood, she wouldn't have gaslighted on the "stars/floating lights," and she wouldn't have kidnapped her in the first place (or she would have at least returned her, ala the Beast). Among other things. But then, if it had been so, she wouldn't have been a Disney villain. And there wouldn't really have been movie, either.

As for what would she have done-- let's use another character as an example. Off the top of my head, I think King Triton is a pretty close parallel to Gothel-- they both want to "protect" their daughters, but I think in TLM, the human world is justified as a more hostile world (for fish, anyway) than the world Rapunzel is kept from. Regarding their motives, Gothel's was always a selfish one-- remember that the tower was not merely built to protect Rapunzel but to keep her to Gothel, so Gothel alone can use her power, and also, perhaps more menacingly, so Rapunzel's parents can't find her. Triton, on the other hand, had good reason to fear for his daughter-- some of us really are spineless, savage, harpooning fish-eaters-- whereas the only men I know with pointy teeth are featured on Ripley's Believe it or Not.

Now let's skip to the end-- when both Ariel and Rapunzel have been exposed to the... Er... Human world, I guess, and have both proven that they can survive in it, and have fallen in love with someone from it. Triton sees his daughter watching Prince Eric. Knowing how much he will miss her, because he loves her, he releases her to Eric-- because he loves her. This is an important parallel because he too holds the keys to his daughter's chains as Gothel did. But what does Gothel do? We'll get to that in a second-- let's start at the beginning of the end.

At this point, Gothel has watched Rapunzel interact in the "human world"-- she can survive out there, there's no question about it now, so Gothel isn't protecting her from anything any more. But Gothel really never cared about that-- it was always a ploy to terrify Rapunzel from leaving her, and because, once again Gothel's motive is selfish-- it isn't love.

Now let's talk about Flynn Rider-- Gothel tries to kill him not once but twice. The first time, she sends him off to the palace for the royal guards to do her dirty work-- but of course, he escapes. When Rider comes to the rescue Rapunzel, Gothel stabs him in cold blood, right in front of Rapunzel. And once again, she doesn't do this to protect Rapunzel. She does this because Rider risks taking away her fountain of youth-- she murders him like one would shoot a thief in the night who broke into one's house to steal one's possessions. Perhaps, if she truly loved Rapunzel and saw her as a person, she would have allowed Rapunzel and him to be together-- because that's what Rapunzel wanted.

Ultimately, love boils down to a lack of selfishness-- not wholly, not complete selflessness, but moments where you do things for those you love, despite yourself. Even given that opportunity, not once do we see Gothel put Rapunzel first-- like Triton did. Making someone their favorite dish, or getting them a nice present isn't love-- but it does offer a wonderful guise of love-- which I think both Rapunzel and Gothel might have been deluded by. But it wasn't the real stuff.
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Re: Mother Gothel...loved Rapunzel? Discussion.

Post by jazzflower92 »

In other words Mother Gothel disguises her domestic emotional abuse as love in order to keep Rapunzel under her wing.
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Re: Mother Gothel...loved Rapunzel? Discussion.

Post by Disney Duster »

You're basically saying she couldn't have even kidnapped Rapunzel and love her because technically she should know Rapunzel would be happier being raised by her real parents and put that happiness first.

And also, so you're saying you can't love someone underneath your own selfish desires that you put first? Sorry but I don't agree. I think Mother Gothel loves Rapunzel, just, as lots of people already said, in her own twisted way. It wasn't as much love as Triton had, but it was an amount of love.

Haven't there been plenty of parents who love their children but don't let them be with the ones they love or get the things that will make them happy? I believe so.
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Re: Mother Gothel...loved Rapunzel? Discussion.

Post by UmbrellaFish »

Disney Duster wrote:Haven't there been plenty of parents who love their children but don't let them be with the ones they love or get the things that will make them happy? I believe so.
You are very right. Where does that motivation come from? I believe it comes from a parent's desire to protect their child, and that sprouts from a foundation of love-- whether or not their decisions are misguided or even prejudiced.

But Gothel's motive to lock Rapunzel up is that if Gothel loses control over her "daughter" she will no longer be able to use her. And because the very root of their relationship is corrupted by Gothel's selfishness-- it is not love.

I will grant you that Gothel may like to think that she loves Rapunzel, in her own twisted way. But because it is so twisted and perverted it loses any meaning of what real love is. It's paradoxical in that way-- because it's demented, it cannot be actual love.
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Re: Mother Gothel...loved Rapunzel? Discussion.

Post by Disney's Divinity »

I do agree with UmbrellaFish that holding someone tight and preventing them from leaving or being happy is not love (and, yes, that includes parents, whether or not they happened to copulate once upon a time and create you). Otherwise every crazy person that kept someone prisoner could claim to be doing so "out of love." That's the only way Beast and Belle can work as a couple, is for him to let her go. This is also why Triton is a good character in the end, because he lets go of his racist/xenophobic restrictions over Ariel.

But, to me, it isn't just that Gothel doesn't let her be happy at the end (like Triton), but that she doesn't seem like she cares about or likes her at all. It's nothing but a front with her. None of her interactions with Rapunzel feel genuine on her side at all, she's just going through the motions. There is no internal conflict at the end, as Sotiris mentioned; she has no interest in Rapunzel as a person or a daughter.
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Re: Mother Gothel...loved Rapunzel? Discussion.

Post by Atlantica »

She loved her hair. That's as far as the love stretched. Gothel is selfish and wicked, emotionally abusing Rapunzel when she displays any sort of sign of disobeying.

It is too hard to distinguish between Rapunzel and her hair; as someone said, the loving comments were directed at the hair over the girl herself. If the hair list it's power, what would Gothel have done? Just say if she had enough of the magic left in her that she didn't poof to dust and age right away, would she like to spend her last few days with Rapunzel? I highly doubt it ....

She murdered Flynn and chained her 'daughter' up, for possibly the rest of her life. Love? Unless seeing the journey Rapunzel went on twisted her in some way further, I just don't get the love vibes for Rapunzel herself. Hair, yes...the daughter aspect? No.
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Re: Mother Gothel...loved Rapunzel? Discussion.

Post by Elladorine »

I see some great replies here. :thumb:

Perhaps Gothel loved using Rapunzel in the same sense that I love wearing my favorite boots, but that's about as far as I'd go with the definition. And I imagine Gothel even believed she played the part of a good mother that loved her daughter since she comes off as delusional in that respect. But as I was trying to state in my previous post, it's obvious that a character like her has absolutely no empathy; she only fulfilled Rapunzel's wants and needs in order to manipulate her for her own gain. She probably even felt a sense of accomplishment whenever she made the favorite soup or the three-day's journey for the paint; take note that she expected attention and praise from Rapunzel for those acts of being such a "giving" mother, which strips away any actual kindness one might interpret from them. I think she enjoyed toying with her feelings, gaining attention from her, and having someone to play off of so she could feed her own ego and feel like the beautiful, clever, superior one. She also sought sympathy from Rapunzel, relished in giving her guilt trips, and smugly belittled her in order to keep her in her place. Those with NPD don't tend to have meaningful, long-lasting relationships since they're pretty much incapable of considering anyone else's feelings; the sole reason Gothel and Rapunzel have any twisted sort of relationship to begin with is due to the kidnapping and manipulation. I don't see Gothel valuing any form of life outside of her own, let alone show any signs of being capable of even understanding what real love is. No wonder she had no issue with killing Flynn right in front of her; his life had no value, he was simply an object that got in the way of what she wanted.

UmbrellaFish mentioned gaslighting, which is a cruel, often unrecognized act of manipulation specifically carried out in order to cast self-doubt and utterly destroy the victim's perceptions and sense of reality. Gothel continually invalidated Rapunzel's presence, completely ignored her wishes to have anything even resembling a normal life, made her a prisoner both emotionally and physically, and all the while basked in the glow of supposedly being a loving, caring mother. I'm sure many of you are familiar with the recent, very real story of the Cleveland trio that escaped their ten-year captor; in addition to the three young women he kidnapped and tortured, the kidnapper kept his own eventual daughter secret and captive, lied to her about her situation, and showered her with gifts while occasionally allowing her in the outside world through carefully-guarded circumstances under the guise of being his "girlfriend's daughter." Perhaps that's a little heavy for this thread, but it only highlights the idea that stealing away someone's entire existence and manipulating them into acting upon their own desires is no act of love, no matter what the captor might claim and no matter how many "nice" things they do for them. It shows absolutely no respect for the life of another human being, let alone any sign of genuine love.

One could argue that Gothel simply would have chained Rapunzel up from the very beginning had no love been involved, but not necessarily. As I was previously trying to say, Gothel appeared to enjoy playing the part of Mother, of having another life under her control to manipulate and play off of. Would she have had been able to enjoy the same sense of clever satisfaction with "taking care of" Rapunzel had she kept her behind bars from the beginning? Playing the mother fed her ego and made her feel important, while giving her a much-wanted, "lesser" being to feel superior over. Keeping her chained up and behind bars from the very beginning wouldn't have allowed her as much leverage over Rapunzel's life.

As for a normal parent that loves their child but prevents them from doing things that may make the them happy (like following a particular dream or being with someone they love), it's not that simple. If the intervention is attempted out of actual love, it's done as an attempt to protect the child from becoming deluded and hurt by the real world. Gothel uses the same reasoning as an excuse, but the reality is that she simply doesn't want Flynn or anyone else to take her magic flower away from her. Rapunzel was nothing more to her than an object that needed to be kept under tight control so she could remain forever young and beautiful. Had Gothel managed to figure out a way to make Rapunzel's hair continue to work its magic once it was cut, I believe she wouldn't have even thought twice about killing her for it.
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Re: Mother Gothel...loved Rapunzel? Discussion.

Post by Disney Duster »

Well, you all made some great posts, but even after all of that, I still think Mother Gothel had some form or small, underneath amount of love for Rapunzel. Even the voice actress thought so, so that's how the character in the movie is played.
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Re: Mother Gothel...loved Rapunzel? Discussion.

Post by UmbrellaFish »

Disney Duster wrote:Well, you all made some great posts, but even after all of that, I still think Mother Gothel had some form or small, underneath amount of love for Rapunzel. Even the voice actress thought so, so that's how the character in the movie is played.
I remember a quote I once read on this forum attributed to either Tony Jay or George Sanders, men who in their careers played many villains, including Disney ones: "I don't play villains." In fact, many actors who portray villains say the same-- my google search named Alan Rickman and Christopher Lee, as well.

Actors do that kind of thing because it makes the character more relatable and human for themselves and keeps their performance from being one note. After all, in real life, people never see themselves as the bad guy. But I don't think you'd say either Shere Khan or Frollo were not villains.

The first rule of acting is to not judge your character, but how does an actor not judge a murderous kidnapper? By inventing a sympathetic backstory or motive as Murphy did for the sake of her performance, which ended up working for her. But it doesn't mean what she says or thinks as the character-about the character is especially valid as truth.
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Re: Mother Gothel...loved Rapunzel? Discussion.

Post by Dragonlion »

Glen Keane had this to say about the matter.
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Re: Mother Gothel...loved Rapunzel? Discussion.

Post by Disney Duster »

Huh, nice to hear what Glen Keane said.

Anyway saying you're not the villain and saying you love a character are two different things. If we are to compare the two, that means that if Mother Gothel wouldn't see herself as the villain, she would think she loved Rapunzel. And if she thinks she loves Rapunzel, then that's something. I still think its some form of attachment, some kinda love.
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