OAR for Disney films?

[disneyfella]

I had thought that 101 Dalmations was animated in the Academy Ratio, and matted at 1.75:1 for theatrical exhibition. If I remember correctly from another thread, in that thread it showed a scene from the Platinum DVD of 101D, with a shot of that scene superimposed over it showing more picture on the side of what was shown on the DVD. Which I assumed meant that either the DVD didn't even show the full animated ratio, and/or that 101D was supposed to have been matted.

101 Dalmatians was matted in at least 1 theatrical re-issue to a ratio of 1.75:1, however upon its initial release theatres were instructed to exhibit the film no wider than 1.33:1 or picture would be lost. One would hope that the Platinum Edition line would include effort to retain the original theatrical aspect ratio at least, however the platinum editions of some of the CAPS films are presented in an open matte on Platinum. While that would be an inappropriate ratio for them, 101 Dalmatians was framed and intended for full frame upon its theatrical debut. As long as the Platinum Edition DVD is an open matte 1.33:1 and not a crop from a matted print, then it is correctly framed (which got a serious sigh of relief from me...lol)

Also, in regards to Winnie-the-Pooh, were the original shorts displayed in theatres at the academy ratio, or matted for exhibition? If the former, I'm waiting for a proper release on DVD of TMA of WTP with the shorts in their proper academy ratio exhibition, and the movie itself in the proper matted exhibition of 1.75.1, as the animation linking the shorts, I think, having been matted along with the shorts for the release in 1977.

TMAOWTP is one of those films that is still questionable as far as I'm concerned. I have found no evidence to suggest it was or was not matted...and therefore any comment on that part would be complete speculation from myself (which I try to obstain from at this point with all the work/money I've been putting in to researching and verifying aspect ratios of the Disney library).


Thanks for the support, too, OAR

[AlwaysOAR]

I had thought that 101 Dalmations was animated in the Academy Ratio, and matted at 1.75:1 for theatrical exhibition. If I remember correctly from another thread, in that thread it showed a scene from the Platinum DVD of 101D, with a shot of that scene superimposed over it showing more picture on the side of what was shown on the DVD. Which I assumed meant that either the DVD didn't even show the full animated ratio, and/or that 101D was supposed to have been matted.

101 Dalmatians was matted in at least 1 theatrical re-issue to a ratio of 1.75:1, however upon its initial release theatres were instructed to exhibit the film no wider than 1.33:1 or picture would be lost. One would hope that the Platinum Edition line would include effort to retain the original theatrical aspect ratio at least, however the platinum editions of some of the CAPS films are presented in an open matte on Platinum. While that would be an inappropriate ratio for them, 101 Dalmatians was framed and intended for full frame upon its theatrical debut. As long as the Platinum Edition DVD is an open matte 1.33:1 and not a crop from a matted print, then it is correctly framed (which got a serious sigh of relief from me...lol)

From another thread....

OK, regarding 101 Dalmations, did anyone notice the Scope trailer on the disc?

Thanks to DeathieMouse and Paka, I have these images:




Yes, the widescreen trailer contains MORE information. So what if this was extended to 1.75 (as was according to IMDB The Sword in the Stone). You'd get something like this




Or taking the full width and making it 1.37: 1?



which if matted to 1.75 from the above full frame would be:



hardly unpleasing to the eye.

I'll let Deathie himself explain his conclusion:
Deathiemouse wrote:
As you can see the missing vertical area of the 4:3 DVD probably falls in between those two extremes as would be normal for an image that someone is transfering from a open matte frame. We can't be certain exactly where till we saw a pic with the whole vertical area, but looking at those I'd think the vertical framing center would be something close to this


I made a few tries shifting them a couple of pixels up or down and that's probably the one that looked best lookig up towards a big screen at 2 picture heights seating, which looks different to seeing it smaller at a farther distance. That thing probably can withstand being cropped to 1.85 too, which would make the 1.75 true (As I'm sure they knew it wouldn't be shown at full 1.75 everywhere in the US, same as they knew it would be shown at 1.66 in Europa) (That's why Diney Ratio is "1.75")

I think we have a case Watson. Any more Scope wider captures?

There might be even some area cropped on the left of the 4:3 DVD which would lead to a 1.75 image with even more vertical area showing.


So are you sure that [a] 101 Dalmations Academy is showing all of the picture and it was never intended to be matted?

My question is the same basically in that is the PE of 101D showing the complete academy ratio?, which it doesn't seem to be, and also was it supposed to be matted. I guess I find it hard to believe that in 1961 they would have gone back to showing the academy ratio upon it's theatrical release when pretty much every other film during that time was some sort of widescreen. I don't know, it's somewhat confusing.

[disneyfella]

All we can do is speculate on the 'why', but upon its inital release in 1961 I have verified through Walt Disney exhibition instructions that it was framed and meant to be seen in 1.33:1.

Several reasons may have caused this.

1) this was the first time that Disney used the xerox process and something about that process indicated the use of the full frame

2) this was the first animated film that Disney made without a scope camera lense since 1953, and therefore those same practices may have gone back into effect after Sleeping Beauty (<- I lean towards this theory, no one had ever matted an animated film before and so the thought never occured to anyone to do so).

3) the director thought it would be a nice throw-back to old Hollywood if they used the Academy Ratio, and had the intent of the framing to help tell a 'classic' story

4) there had never been any matted animated films released at that time, so the notion of simply matting an animated film for a widescreen effect hadn't been thought through properly at this time....(i.e. "do we still draw the entire frame if we're going to matte it for the screen?")


The theories or ideas behind why 101 Dalmatians was 1.33:1 could go on and on. Unfortunately, without getting into the archives and having a look at the notes and talking with the people who made the film.....we may never know for sure why this was done.

Like I said earlier, though, so long as the Platinum Edition's 1.33:1 frame is the full frame, then it is properly exhibited on DVD.

Since 101 Dalmatians was never actually released in Scope, perhaps that trailer was made seperately from the film (i.e. the trailer had more artwork to show because a 1.33:1 movie shown through a scope lense would literally cut off all of the heads!). I'm not sure.

I'm also not sure about several of the other Animate Features framing at this point in time....but I'm still researching and digging up all kinds of stuff Here's hoping ultimatedisney will have the first fully verified listing of the animated Disney library and their aspect ratios....lol!

[KubrickFan]

4) there had never been any matted animated films released at that time, so the notion of simply matting an animated film for a widescreen effect hadn't been thought through properly at this time....(i.e. "do we still draw the entire frame if we're going to matte it for the screen?")

That's not true, there were several shorts released in theaters that were matted. You don't see everything in the 1.33:1 frame either, so the method was hardly new.
And I still don't understand why every major studio had converted to widescreen even in the 50s, and yet this movie somehow wasn't.

[AlwaysOAR]

All we can do is speculate on the 'why', but upon its inital release in 1961 I have verified through Walt Disney exhibition instructions that it was framed and meant to be seen in 1.33:1.

Several reasons may have caused this.

1) this was the first time that Disney used the xerox process and something about that process indicated the use of the full frame

2) this was the first animated film that Disney made without a scope camera lense since 1953, and therefore those same practices may have gone back into effect after Sleeping Beauty (<- I lean towards this theory, no one had ever matted an animated film before and so the thought never occured to anyone to do so).

3) the director thought it would be a nice throw-back to old Hollywood if they used the Academy Ratio, and had the intent of the framing to help tell a 'classic' story

4) there had never been any matted animated films released at that time, so the notion of simply matting an animated film for a widescreen effect hadn't been thought through properly at this time....(i.e. "do we still draw the entire frame if we're going to matte it for the screen?")!

Yeah, I have gone back in some of the other threads and found the work you've done on getting some of the aspect ratios verified. Thanks for your efforts on those, btw. Again, I've been away from these boards for awhile and was unaware of your recent efforts.
I guess it would be a combination of your first two theories on the why for the academy ratio, though I'm not 100% convinced still, 95% percent maybe , but with your efforts on all of the other DAC aspect ratio issues, I guess, for now, I'll have to assume this is the case with Dalmations.

Like I said earlier, though, so long as the Platinum Edition's 1.33:1 frame is the full frame, then it is properly exhibited on DVD.

Since 101 Dalmatians was never actually released in Scope, perhaps that trailer was made seperately from the film (i.e. the trailer had more artwork to show because a 1.33:1 movie shown through a scope lense would literally cut off all of the heads!). I'm not sure.

I'm also not sure about several of the other Animate Features framing at this point in time....but I'm still researching and digging up all kinds of stuff Here's hoping ultimatedisney will have the first fully verified listing of the animated Disney library and their aspect ratios....lol!

But where did the extra artwork come from? I don't know, something tells me we don't have the full academy ratio on the PE of 101D. I'll have to hold off on buying the PE until things are cleared up on this, that, and becoming 100% convinced on the academy ratio . Has anyone compared the LI DVD with the PE? I assume they're the same frames.
Again though, thanks for your efforts in finding out about some of the other Disney films and their ratios, it is appreciated.

[ICspotsM]

Follow the link and stop the film at 6:13.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmYtRL2_1lM

I don’t know what kind of aspect ratio One hundred and one dalmatians was recorded in but if we take under consideration preview metioned before and this picture it’s clear that the movie was animated to be widescreen.

Whether the picture on the sides was filmed or not, I think that widescreen aspect ratio with matted picture is not intended one.

[KubrickFan]

Follow the link and stop the film at 6:13.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmYtRL2_1lM

I don’t know what kind of aspect ratio One hundred and one dalmatians was recorded in but if we take under consideration preview metioned before and this picture it’s clear that the movie was animated to be widescreen.

Whether the picture on the sides was filmed or not, I think that widescreen aspect ratio with matted picture is not intended one.

It could also be a stretched picture. The featurette is made in widescreen, and cutting off the top and bottom of the picture wouldn't get keep the intended information of the photo. So they stretch it.

[ICspotsM]

Follow the link and stop the film at 6:13.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmYtRL2_1lM

I don’t know what kind of aspect ratio One hundred and one dalmatians was recorded in but if we take under consideration preview metioned before and this picture it’s clear that the movie was animated to be widescreen.

Whether the picture on the sides was filmed or not, I think that widescreen aspect ratio with matted picture is not intended one.

It could also be a stretched picture. The featurette is made in widescreen, and cutting off the top and bottom of the picture wouldn't get keep the intended information of the photo. So they stretch it.

You might be right. I've watched this scene once again and I noticed it misses picture on the top and the bottom as well.
So it might be the case of my bd player overscanning...

[AlwaysOAR]

I just wanted to let those who are interested know that I will be receiving the following pressbooks/presskits:

The Jungle Book (1967 premiere original pressbook)

The Horse In the Gray Flannel Suit/ Winnie the Pooh and the Blustery Day (1968 premiere original pressbook)

Oliver & Company (1988 premiere original presskit)

I should be receiving them within the next couple of weeks, though I won't be back to the states till the second week of December, so look for some info from me around the week of Dec. 6.

I'm most interested to know whether or not the Winnie-the-Pooh short was shown theatrically in the academy ratio, or matted at, I assume, 1.75 to 1. The Blustery Day debuted as the short before The Horse..., the reason it is with THITGFS on the pressbook. I think that probably all three shorts that made up the Many Adventures of WTP were shown matted upon their theatrical debuts, which would mean of course that the 1977 movie would have been shown in the same ratio, along with the animation tying the three shorts together.

The pressbooks/presskit should give us the theatrical aspect ratio these films would have been shown in, and hence the way they should be presented first and foremost on DVD/ Blu-ray releases.

Anyway, for those who care....I'll have info in about a month.