Tangled! (The Artist Formerly Known As Rapunzel)

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Marky_198
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Post by Marky_198 »

nomad2010 wrote:
Poody wrote:Is it sad I find the fan art more appealing than the "official" concept art? :P
:lol: It is.. I mean really, that design is very appealing, she is young, quirky and seems full of life. I just hope that they make her look more 2D, I mean why not traditionally animate her and use CG to add texture and some more shadows. I mean really? Why in the world would the studio want it be CG in the first place is what I'm wondering. Disney is the only company who ever truly pulled off hand drawn animation, and it's the only company really that has ever had REAL successful fairy tales, not fantasy, fairy tales. Why not make Walt's 50TH FILM hand drawn.. a tribute to him.. it is the 50th.. and it's Rapunzel.. the one story Walt could never get just right...
Exactly!

And it makes me think; What happened to the method of scanning 2d animation drawings of a ballerina to the computer and make a 3d looking character out of that?

I thought that was a groundbreaking idea.
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Kyle
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Post by Kyle »

You mean using hand drawn reference while making 3d characters? they still do that. its hard to make 3d characters look right when you dont. I should know. the only time they dont really is for background characters.
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Post by Elladorine »

Prince Kido wrote:Wow! I am surprised but flattered to see my drawing on this link, even if i'm not happy at all that they were picked up without my permission.
Wow, I absolutely adore your work and am truly humbled by it! I really hope that it was ok I used your art as a reference for my own work. I'd like to link back to your blog from my dA page to give you credit for the reference, hope that's ok with you? :)
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Cordy_Biddle
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Post by Cordy_Biddle »

enigmawing wrote:
Prince Kido wrote:Wow! I am surprised but flattered to see my drawing on this link, even if i'm not happy at all that they were picked up without my permission.
Wow, I absolutely adore your work and am truly humbled by it! I really hope that it was ok I used your art as a reference for my own work. I'd like to link back to your blog from my dA page to give you credit for the reference, hope that's ok with you? :)
I've had Amazon reviews that have been used for DVD cover blurbs without my permission. Cool, but then again I'd love the credit for actually writing them. Essentially someone got paid for surfing the net and cut/pasting my work.
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Elladorine
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Post by Elladorine »

Cordy_Biddle wrote:I've had Amazon reviews that have been used for DVD cover blurbs without my permission. Cool, but then again I'd love the credit for actually writing them. Essentially someone got paid for surfing the net and cut/pasting my work.
Unfortunately, the internet makes it so easy to cut, paste, and otherwise swipe someone else's work. I mean, I love it when someone references or even colors my artwork, but it's an odd feeling when someone manipulates or outright steals something I've done. In turn, I do my best to give credit whenever possible and appropriate.
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blackcauldron85
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Post by blackcauldron85 »

goofystitch wrote: At the D23 Expo, I was surprised how many fans didn't know it was going to be CG. I talked to a lot of people after John Lasseter revealed the voice cast and showed the test footage and the general reaction was "I don't get why it is in CG." I kept trying to explain that story is the most important thing and that it will still be a great film. I'm actually excited for Disney's first CG traditional fairy tale (I don't count Chicken Little, lol).
Really? That shocks me, since it has been known for years that it'd be in CG! Were the people disappointed that it will be in CG, or just shocked?

And Prince Kido- sorry, I didn't know that your work was your work...it sure looked professional to me! I guess whoever posted it on the forum I linked to would be the one to ask how he got it! Amazing work, though!
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Post by goofystitch »

blackcauldron85 wrote:
goofystitch wrote: At the D23 Expo, I was surprised how many fans didn't know it was going to be CG. I talked to a lot of people after John Lasseter revealed the voice cast and showed the test footage and the general reaction was "I don't get why it is in CG." I kept trying to explain that story is the most important thing and that it will still be a great film. I'm actually excited for Disney's first CG traditional fairy tale (I don't count Chicken Little, lol).
Really? That shocks me, since it has been known for years that it'd be in CG! Were the people disappointed that it will be in CG, or just shocked?
I was surprised by their reaction as well. They were disappointed that it wouldn't be hand drawn, but I kept trying to tell them that they are trying to be innovative and elevate the medium and that Winnie the Pooh would be the next hand drawn film, which was announced at the Expo. I know it was up in the air on here, but Lasseter confirmed it.
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Jules
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Post by Jules »

Didn't know Rapunzel will be in CG and they call themselves Disney fans? :P Shame on them, lol.
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Poody
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Post by Poody »

I'm guessing most of those people didn't know Disney was making Rapunzel at all!
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Kyle
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Post by Kyle »

blackcauldron85 wrote: Really? That shocks me, since it has been known for years that it'd be in CG! Were the people disappointed that it will be in CG, or just shocked?!
Ive seen people on this very board who are just now learing its CG. so many people are clueless it seems. I guess most people just have a hard time seeing the words CG, and Disney princess in the same sentence. and usually the reaction from what Ive seen is negative.
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Post by ajmrowland »

Also, this board and all of us are stil in a minority. This goes just as much in conjunction with the rest of the Disney fandom as it does with the general public.
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Kyle
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Post by Kyle »

Well I don't think we can blame the general public, there hasnt been a single teaser yet for people to see and know about yet. only the fans should really know about it at this point. but the fact that there are people who know of its existence and don't know what demension its in just odd to me.
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Post by Disney Duster »

Kyle wrote:You mean using hand drawn reference while making 3d characters? they still do that. its hard to make 3d characters look right when you dont. I should know. the only time they dont really is for background characters.
No, I heard Glen Keane wanted someone to replicate the ballerina's movements exactly, as smooth as the pencil, the exact animation and design, just in 3-dimensions. And that's what he got.
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Kyle
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Post by Kyle »

Ahh, was this in fantasia 2000 by any chance? I never saw it, but I remember seeing one in trailers.

but they do this as well to a certain extent. on the incredibles brad would often draw directly onto the screens to show what chances to make.

But often times its just redundant. the main thing you need is just to have hand drawn sensibilties, since the same rules apply. the character should have a clean silhouettes, smooth arcs, etc.

and doing it the ballerina way means your doing it basically frame by frame, which kinda defeats the purpose. in CGI you pose the key frames, and allow the computer to fill in the gaps. its a huge time saver.
then again, Im not positive how the ballerina thing was done, maybe they only drew the key frames there as well?

If that is the case, then once again they kinda do that to an extent as well. Many animators will draw thumnnails while acting out the scene to base the final poses on.

but I'll have to look up the technique to see how they really did it. I heard this discussed in a podcast with Glen, but I cant remember too clearly, and it was just audio.
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Post by blackcauldron85 »

Kyle wrote:Ahh, was this in fantasia 2000 by any chance? I never saw it, but I remember seeing one in trailers.
I think he was referring to the ballerina test Glen Keane did for Rapunzel Unbraided.


http://jimhillmedia.com/blogs/jim_hill/ ... 9/656.aspx
Glen was understandably reluctant to make his directorial debut on a CG film. An animation format that -- in spite of his many years of experience of dealing with CG elements in Disney pictures -- Keane still didn't think that he knew enough about. But then CG Supervisor Kevin Geiger sat down with the veteran animator and laid the challenge out in terms that Glen could grasp and appreciate.

"Kevin said 'If you can do all the things that you do while drawing without using a pencil, are you in?'," Keane explained. "And I said 'Yes.'"

So -- with that goal in mind -- Glen decided to create a test for Disney Feature Animation's CG team. He would first traditionally draw a female ballerina going through a brief dance routine. Then Keane would work with WDFA computer animation technicians to see if it was possible to replicate that figure's movements in CG.

"I was looking to see if they could copy the fluid movement of a human ballerina. And they actually did that," Glen said. "Once I saw that test, I knew that producing 'Rapunzel' the way that I originally envisioned the picture was now possible in CG."
It was shown during a segment of the "CBS Sunday Morning" show a few years back, but I'm having trouble finding images. If I find anything else on it, I'll post it.

*edit*

http://www.awn.com/articles/ichicken-li ... ion/page/6
“So I took the challenge, but said that thing are going to have to be a little different, though. One of the first steps was posing a challenge. I animated by hand something difficult for the computer to do— a ballerina doing little twirls and arabesques. I modeled the figure to see if you could match all of the exaggeration, the subtle twists and turns and graphic shapes in the computer.

“There were a whole lot of things that I discovered about my vocabulary of shapes when I draw, so when I started to break it down, I found that I’m just flexing them all the time. And if we could actually design those shapes and flex them and push them and twist them — make them graphically pleasing—we could come up with something that’s really very different from a traditional CG character. Drawing means that you’ve got to have a lot of flexibility and choices in how you want those shapes to be. As I drew that ballerina by hand, I stretched and broke bones and twisted ankles and made muscles straight when they could’ve been curved or curved when they could’ve been straight.

And then when we put our CG figure in there, she remained consistent all the way through with no aesthetic. She lacked the beauty and the rhythms that I put in the drawing. So we had to write new software code for Maya and other traditional CG tools, which would allow us to stretch and push shapes and design so that we were bringing design back into those forms. And the test came out promisingly. Then when Disney was doing Mickey’s Philharmagic [for Disney World], I reworked the Ariel segment and tried to apply the principles taught by The Nine Old Men: build everything around pleasing golden poses. I concentrated on 20 poses and that worked as well.”

So with Rapunzel Keane is trying to bring drawing into CG by applying basic design principles. He admits that it’s a big leap forward for both character performance and environment. For inspiration, Keane and his animators are referencing a painting by French Rococo artist Jean-Honore Fragonard, The Swing, applying a certain richness that they have never attained in animation before.
*edit*

http://www.siggraph.org/programs/archiv ... -animation
When Keane was first introduced to CG he was skeptical. He didn’t believe that CG could capture the same organic fluidity that he coveted in his hand drawn animations. He decided to conduct a test. He animated by hand 5 seconds of a ballerina gracefully spinning across the dance floor. He played this clip for the audience.

He said he took his ballerina to the CG people and asked what they could do. In the next clip he played a 3D version that wowed the audience. But once you create something in 3D there is nothing keeping you from changing your camera’s viewpoint on the animation and the third clip of the ballerina is what took the audience’s breath away. The same ballerina with the same fluid motion danced across the floor as the camera spun around her ending above as she tilted her face skyward for the finale. We were all ready to drop pencils forever and embrace the wonders of computer graphics.

For Keane, the computer kept entering the equation. It was the obvious direction for where his art should be going. Computer graphics forced him to draw better with more dimension and a better sense of space, and although new and frightening, he like it.
Finally, I found it! I wasn't going to rest until I found an image to show you!
http://animationarchive.net/Future%20Pr ... rt/bal.jpg

*edit*
Here's another picture from that CBS Sunday Morning segment:
http://animationarchive.net/Future%20Pr ... t/unk1.jpg
Last edited by blackcauldron85 on Sun Sep 20, 2009 11:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Kyle
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Post by Kyle »

Your second to last image link is broken.
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blackcauldron85
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Post by blackcauldron85 »

Thanks for letting me know- the website that I got the last image at also had the same image as I had posted, so I just pasted that link right now...so it's fixed! :)
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Post by Disney Duster »

Yes Amy, that was what I was talking about. Once again, you are AMAZING. Look at everything you found...! I remember seeing that pic of the ballerina, too...
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blackcauldron85
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Post by blackcauldron85 »

:oops: Well, shucks. I'm not amazing- I just have a lot of free time. :p
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Post by Disney Duster »

Well maybe you are amazing with your free time.

I much prefer out of all the design of Rapunzel found here:
I think the best Rapunzel design

And she looks painterly there, of course, probably more because it's concept art...but Rapunzel is conncected to gold, golden locks, so I like her brown eyes and the gold in her costume. I don't like the purpleish pink, unless purple is the witch's favorite color, so she dresses Rapunzel like that, but it should be a deeper purple...

We need to tell Disney, make it like a painting, make it like hand-drawn, make the character design like the previous ones we all like better...ahhhhhhhh...
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