Some Black Cauldron questions

[DisneyJedi]

Yes, I love the original R1 VHS cover art (as seen below). I only wish they would add a few fairfolk flying around the title logo.

IMO most of the VHS covers look amazing, I still like to keep them for that reason, no DVD cover stands a chance against any of the older VHS covers, search for the disney masterpiece VHS collection, and you'll know what I mean.

Now that I think about it, Taran looks a little older on the VHS cover art.

[Neal]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Mr. McLean's answer was a thinly veiled disguise for 'we'll have info. for you soon'. Perhaps there will be an ad on Oliver & Company.

[DisneyJedi]

I just hope the Special Edition isn't a crappy letdown, like MOST Special Edition DVDs that I know of. >_<

[Rudy Matt]

I know John has too much class to do it -- but it would be glorious to see a special edition of The Black Cauldron with a documentary detailing how Jeffrey Katzenberg came into the editing booth and asked for the coverage on animated scenes he wanted to cut around....there IS NO COVERAGE in animation. Then he could play that with a running loop of Katzenberg admitting he wanted to fire Eddie Murphy from 48 Hrs. because he "wasn't funny" and then conclude with his admission he wanted to cut "Part of Your World" from The Little Mermaid.

Ah, Katzenberg -- what a genius you are. Glad Roy forced you to return those paintings you lifted from the ARL.

"I'm the new Walt Disney!"
-- Jeffrey Katzenberg

[KubrickFan]

Well, it wasn't the first time something fully animated was cut out of a film (Snow White, anyone?) and not the last time either. And he already admitted he was wrong on the Little Mermaid discussion. It's on that dvd, in the making of.

[blackcauldron85]

Well, it wasn't the first time something fully animated was cut out of a film (Snow White, anyone?) and not the last time either.

At least people know that the Snow White deleted footage exists...I'm still hopeful about TBC's footage. People will still be mad at Katzenberg even if the footage is found in the Archives somewhere, but I think that people will be a little less mad if we know that the footage has not been thrown away...

[KubrickFan]

Does the Snow White footage exists in it's original form? I'd swear they got it from a "Disneyland" episode. Anyway, Disney has a huge archive, so it should be there somewhere (hopefully).

[Rudy Matt]

I've often wondered about that -- the sequence from "The Plausible Impossible" is unusual in that every shot is finished. Some of the shots don't appear to be animation of the period, i.e. some of the Dwarf scrambling shots, while others are clearly vintage. If I had to guess, the unfinished shots from the sequence were completed in clean-up in the mid-50's working from the original rough animation.

[DisneyJedi]

Why would they cut footage from Snow White, though?

But seriously. If the cut footage from TBC was actually thrown away, never to ever see the light of day, I am gonna be so mad that I will track down Jeffrey Katzenberg and give him a good kick in the shin!

[Flanger-Hanger]

Why would they cut footage from Snow White, though?

"Walt was a ruthless editor" John Canemaker.

It's all about finding the right pacing for a film, getting rid of what isn't necessary etc, you know, film making.

[akhenaten]

I am gonna be so mad that I will track down John Katzenberger and give him a good kick in the shin!

u combined two different people..one is john ratzenberger and the other one is jeffrey katzenberg.

[Elladorine]

Well, it wasn't the first time something fully animated was cut out of a film (Snow White, anyone?) and not the last time either.

Nope, but the whole point was that with the way animated films are crafted, it is felt that any editing should typically done before the *finished* animation. It is more typical to see finished animation deleted these days, but back then it was considered blasphemy, lol. The animation deleted from Snow White was still in the pencil stages, as was the animation for Pinocchio, etc . . .

I don't know, maybe Katzenburg was right to delete the scenes; we'll never really get an idea unless we get to see them for ourselves. As we all know his previous experience was with live-action films and perhaps he could see the overall film more objectively than those that had been floundering with it for so long. Then again, maybe he removed some moments that the story needed just because he felt an animated film shouldn't be so dark? And not being able to see what's been cut has left us all rather curious.

So yeah, Walt Disney himself realized that scenes had to be cut and wasn't afraid to do so, but it sounds to be that he typically figured it out before the films reached the final stages. I'd say it's probably more for financial reasons than anything else, yet people have somehow turned this into something personal.

[blackcauldron85]

Then again, maybe he removed some moments that the story needed just because he felt an animated film shouldn't be so dark? And not being able to see what's been cut has left us all rather curious.

Some of the footage is of the deathless warriors, and some is of one of the Gwythaints digging its talons into presumably Taran (what I read said a boy) and flying away with him.

*edit* Here's what "DisneyWar" by James B. Stewart says:

The Black Cauldron was completed, and Roy had already seen it. He'd been disturbed by the graphic violence in the opening sequence, in which a flying dragon swoops down on a young boy, sinks his talons into him, and flies off. Roy insisted that a few particularly bloody frames be cut, but he didn't know what else to do. Apart from the violence, "I just don't understand the story," he told the writer and producer, Joe Hale.
When Katzenberg saw it, he was even more dismayed, and blunter about saying so. The dark and forbidding story was unsuitable for small children. Katzenberg didn't see how it could garner a G, or general audience, rating, which had always been affixed to the Disney animated films. It would be a disaster for the Disney brand.
"This has to be edited," he proclaimed as soon as the film ended.
Hale objected. "Animated films can't be edited," he insisted. There was no "excess" footage in an animated film, all of which was painstakingly hand-drawn and colored. You couldn't just cut scenes and add new ones, not with the release just weeks away.
"That's rediculous," Katzenberg retorted. "You can edit anything."
"No, you can't," Hale persisted. "It's seamless."
"Yes you can, and I'll show you how," Katzenberg said, as tension mounted. "Let's go into the editing room."

Stewart, James B. Disney War. New York: Simon & Schuster, Incorporated, 2005, P. 68-69.

It then goes on to talk about how Katzenberg went on to edit it and Eisner didn't do anything to stop him. I definitely recommend reading the book.

This TBC trailer, on the 1985 VHS of Pinocchio, has some of the cut footage in it, of the Cauldron Born:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fw76QgoNc3o

And the cut scenes are discussed here:
http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:ZFc ... cd=1&gl=us
(The user "Gurgi", wrote some false information, but the picture shown is the reason I posted the link, since it is from one of the cut scenes (which is also earlier in either this thread or in another TBC thread).

And this site mentions the cut scenes:

http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:6On ... cd=2&gl=us

Actually According to IMDB (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0088814/alternateversions), they state the following about what scenes are deleted and fully animated.. and here is what is said:

The version of the film released to theaters omits numerous fully-animated scenes, including:

Shots of graphic violence as Taran fights his way out of the castle, and
Shots of Eilonwy sporting ripped garments as she's hanging for her life with Taran and Fflewddur.
The most well-known deleted scene, due to a clumsy jump it left in the film's soundtrack and a cel of the infamous scene appearing online, is that of a man being mauled by one of the Cauldron born.Now I did talk to a friend of mine and in fact what you are describing is totally new and completely different that what either of us know about. So if this is true, then it's news to me and my friend. but the above data is known.

Edited Note: I did some further talking to my friend and he even says that on the DVD that has been released recently, that now in the final version, the one he has, he states that, "There is some blood that is shown 'spurting' from a wound inflected by Taran swiping the sword,but thats the most graphic thing as far as blood goes."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fi ... _by_studio
The Black Cauldron (1985) - Two minutes of finished animation were cut from the film by then-animation-chairman of Disney Jeffrey Katzenberg to tone down the violence. The film had already been scored, and the edits made created a disruption in the musical score.

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htf/mov ... ies-2.html

Anyway, Katzenberg eventually trimmed (reportedly) two minutes of animation, including some shots of skeletal violence in the last reel. Because the cuts came so late in the production, the score for the film had already been completed, and thus, Katzenberg's edits in the climactic scenes can be "heard", since they interrupt music cues and cymbal crashes.

http://dic.academic.ru/dic.nsf/enwiki/412354

Shortly before the film's release to theaters, newly appointed Disney chairman Jeffrey Katzenberg ordered several scenes from "The Black Cauldron" be cut, due to the fear that the graphic nature of them would alienate children and family audiences. The bulk of the cut scenes involved the undead "Cauldron Born", who are used as the Horned King's army in the final act of the film. While most of the scenes were seamlessly removed from the film, one particular cut involving a Cauldron Born killing a person by slicing his neck and torso created a rather recognizable lapse due to the fact that the removal of the scene creates a jump in the film's soundtrack. Additionally, a scene involving Taran taking the magic sword and slaying his foes while he escapes the Horned King's castle for the first time was removed, as well as another scene with Princess Eilonwy partially nude as fabric was ripped off of her dress as she is hanging by her hands with Taran and Fflewddur Fflam. Another scene cut featured a man being dissolved by mist. [ [http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/3622 ... enevu0.jpg] - Graphic image. An animation cel which was auctioned on eBay, from [http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Set/2677/ Sarah's Black Cauldron Page] ] The removal of these scenes was to prevent the film from receiving either a PG-13 or R rating. The final version of the film was the first animated film from Disney to get a PG rating from the MPAA.

As of now, the original cut of the film with the removed scenes restored has never been released on video or DVD. A version of the film with more cuts has appeared on the Disney Channel and the Toon Disney channel.

In January 2008, a video [ [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fw76QgoN ... re=related] - trailer in Pinocchio VHS. Scene that was cut from the film appears from 1:22 to 1:25] showing one of the cut scenes appeared on YouTube, showing the trailer for "The Black Cauldron" on the "Pinocchio" VHS that was released in 1985. In this trailer, three Cauldron-Born skeletons jump up, as opposed to the film, where only one jumps up - this is also the scene where the soundtrack jumped in the film, but in the trailer it is intact.

http://micechat.com/forums/23268-post2.html

The skeletons begin to rise and stagger around, killing a few of the Horned King's soldiers. This sequence shows heavy signs of editorial tinkering, with last-minute edits so jarring, they interrupt music cues (as the film cuts from one shot to another, you can hear the tail end of a symbal crash fading into the distance. If you have the Black Cauldron soundtrack by Elmer Bernstein, you can "hear" the original sequence in its true form. It is well-known that Jeffrey Katzenberg - new to the company - took the scissors to The Black Cauldron in an effort to improve the film weeks before its release (or possibly, cut out certain shots to try to avoid a then-controversial PG rating). Nowhere is Katzenberg's tinkering more apparent than in these climactic scenes, though the rumour goes some lifts were also made during Taran's 1st act trip through the forest looking for Hen Wen before he meets Gurgi, as well as the removal of a character named Moose, who was one of the Horned King's less-intelligent soldiers. According to Disney insiders, the cut footage is nothing to write home about, and amounts to around two minutes, total.

Still, the cuts to this final sequence are readily apparent, and because these cuts were made to lessen the terror and violence of the Cauldron-Born, they therefore somewhat lessen the importance of stopping them. It would be nice to one day see a completely-uncut Cauldron, but it is doubtful two minutes of footage could solve the film's myriad problems.

[KubrickFan]

Wow, that screenshot is really disturbing. No wonder that was cut out. One thing, though. How come they only noticed the violent bits in the film when it was as good as finished? Someone must've seen it earlier and objected to it, surely?

[blackcauldron85]

How come they only noticed the violent bits in the film when it was as good as finished? Someone must've seen it earlier and objected to it, surely?

Well, the film was supposed to be a departure, to be more mature, aimed at the same audience as Star Wars, essentially. Of course the violent bits were storyboarded and known about, but I guess it was only after seeing the animation that Roy Disney & Jeffrey Katzenberg got concerned...they didn't know how it would look finished, I guess.

This is an interesting article, and it talks about Katzenberg and his lack of knowledge of the animation industry:

http://www.majorspoilers.com/archives/411.htm/

Tad Stones: I started with Disney in Features, with a training program as an In-Betweener, got to Assistant Animator, and eventually moved into Story. I worked at what is now Imagineering on EPCOT, and I got to share a room for about nine months with Ward Kimball, which was fantastic.

I then came back to the Animation Department just a little before Michael [Eisner] and Jeffery [Katzenberg] showed up – the world changed.

SS: This was all before Black Cauldron.

Stones: They came in during Black Cauldron. There was this thing with Jeffery that people kind of laughed about; that I thought was really to his credit. They were showing dailies from Black Cauldron, and Jeffery said, “Do you have this shot from a different angle?”

It was quiet, and they said, “We can draw it from a different angle.” It got a chuckle, as if “this guy is inexperienced,” but what I thought was great about it was, here is a guy that is treating it like a real movie. Up until that time people were trying to pretend that animation was some unique animal that didn’t require you to tell stories the same way. This kind of thinking kept animation from being what it could be. There were years of stunted growth because of that mindset.

SS: Wasn’t he one of the first ones to suggest editing the animated film down?

Stones: I wasn’t involved in that project, but it wasn’t soon after that editors were brought in at the early stage of the project, so an editor could say things like “do you have this from another angle”, or “This doesn’t seem to flow quite right”.

It was an added expense, but it was worth it because the thought then became, “Let’s treat these things as more of a movie”.

It's interesting how, depending on what you read, people will say that anywhere from 2 minutes to half an hour to an hour's worth of footage was edited. From what I've read over the years, though, two minutes of edited footage is about right.

Another quote about Katzenberg's lack of knowledge of animation (from one of my favorite websites, but the quote is a positive one, kind of praising DreamWorks...):

http://animationguildblog.blogspot.com/ ... ptism.html


One of the refreshing things about Jeffrey Katzenberg is he's honest about his beginnings in 'toon land:

"I knew nothing about animation. Nothing whatsoever," Katzenberg told The Associated Press at the Cannes Film Festival ...

Katzenberg said his indoctrination into animation came on his first day at Disney, which he joined in 1984 as head of the film division after his boss at Paramount Pictures, Michael Eisner, became Disney chief executive. In preparation for a meeting with Eisner, Katzenberg made a list of 10 critical things he needed to do at their new outfit.

"Nowhere on that list was there any mention of animation," Katzenberg said. "When the meeting was about to come to an end, Michael stopped and he said, 'Oh, by the way, do you see that building over there?' And he pointed out the window of his office ... 'That's where they make animated films.'"

"I went, 'Oh, really?' He said, 'Yes, and it's your problem.'

Happily, Jeffrey turned his 1984 "problem" into a very lucrative franchise and living, and the world's the richer for it.

But he's right, he was kind of ignorant about animation in the beginning. Back then, he went through the whole department, looking at projects, deciding what stayed on track and what would be jettisoned.

And he quickly realized that The Black Cauldron, then 80% complete, had ... ah ... issues. Jeffrey, naturally enough, looked around for ways to improve those issues. Coming from a live-action background, he asked to look at "all the outtakes."

He was told: "We don't have any. There aren't any outtakes in animation."

This was one of Mr. Katzenberg's early lessons in cartoon making. But Mr. Katzenberg was a quick study, and didn't have to be taught twice. Which is why he's running a successful animation studio today.


I'm kind of sorry for the super-long posts, but I'm kind of geeking out right now, reading various websites' info on TBC.

A quote from Andreas Deja about his work on the film:
http://www.pizarro.net/didier/_private/ ... dreas.html

I started with a movie that nobody has ever seen called The Black Cauldron. It had a pig-keeper in it who I helped design. I animated quite a lot of the boy Taran and the Princess called Eilonwy and later on a mentor named Dallben. And also some of the Smurf type little characters underground (Andreas chuckles). I think you've seen this movie, something tells me! This was my first job and my first movie ever.

[KubrickFan]

Not knowing everything about the making of animated films is one thing, but thinking 2D animation has outtakes, or different angles is just stupid. Especially when you're in the movie business.

Too bad we'll probably never going to see the film uncut. Hopefully a decent SE will make up for it.

[DisneyJedi]

Not knowing everything about the making of animated films is one thing, but thinking 2D animation has outtakes, or different angles is just stupid. Especially when you're in the movie business.

Too bad we'll probably never going to see the film uncut. Hopefully a decent SE will make up for it.

Well, that's honestly what I'm hoping will be on the Special Edition. I'm not saying I'm holding my breath on it, but- maybe, JUST maybe- this Special Edition will include the uncut version of the film. I'm totally DYING to see it uncut.

[Goliath]

I'm kind of sorry for the super-long posts, but I'm kind of geeking out right now, reading various websites' info on TBC.

No need to say sorry at all! I enjoy all this information very much, and I also think one of the purposes of this forum is to share information, right?

A quote from Andreas Deja about his work on the film:

I started with a movie that nobody has ever seen called The Black Cauldron.

Funny! I like Deja a lot. I don't know why. He just seems so sympathetic to me. What I don't understand, though, is the hostility toward Katzenberg. I think he did some very good editing jobs on Aladdin. Do you know how Clements and Musker originally wanted to do the film? With a much younger Aladdin, a stiff British Iago and Aladdin's mother? I'm glad Katzenberg turned down that version and made them start over virtually from scratch again. The end result is way better because of him.

[DisneyJedi]

So the chances of The Black Cauldron being released uncut are slim? Rats!

Still, I am NOT holding my breath on it, but I am hoping to see it uncut. But the only way to do that for the time being, you'd have to be an employee at Disney. Right?

I just hope they're listening to us when we say we want to see it uncut.

If you'd like to raise awareness of wanting the movie uncut, follow these links: http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/825513661
http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/ ... i?2288756x

[Jack Skellington]

So the chances of The Black Cauldron being released uncut are slim? Rats!

Still, I am NOT holding my breath on it, but I am hoping to see it uncut. But the only way to do that for the time being, you'd have to be an employee at Disney. Right?

I just hope they're listening to us when we say we want to see it uncut.

If you'd like to raise awareness of wanting the movie uncut, follow these links: http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/825513661
http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/ ... i?2288756x

Thanks for that link, I just voted.