Positive or Negative Portrayal of Women in Animated Films?

[snowbot]

What's up everyone! Snowbot here. I just joined the board this morning and this is the second topic I've started, but I wanted to get everyone's opinion on something. I have a paper due next week for my Film Studies class, and I was thinking about tackling the issue of gender in Disney animated classics; specifically the portrayal of women in the ones from the 1990s. The thing is, I can easily see both sides: some may argue that the way they are depicted is harmful to modern thinking about gender (women need men for self-worth and identity, etc); whereas others may argue that women like Ariel, Belle, Pocahontas, and Mulan are good role models because they pursue their own dreams and desires despite resistance from family and society. I personally lean towards the latter view. What do you guys think? And what are some examples? Are there other ways of looking at this that I'm not thinking about?

[Mr. Toad]

Hmmm. It would definately seem to be the latter to me.

These are very strong women. Especially Mulan. She won the man, not the other way around. The whole moral of the story is to break down pre conceived notions that women are weaker than men.

In the case of Beauty and the Beast the man needed the woman more than the other way around. Of course the forced confinement thingy may not have been good.

The only argument for a poor roll model may be the Little Mermaid where a girl was willing to give up her entire world, her family and her friends for a man she had never met based on physical attraction alone.

And I realize you are writing this for some ulta politically correct professor but what on earth is wrong with a woman needing a man, or the other way around for that matter. My life is certainly better with a good woman in it than being alone.

[goofystitch]

I think that the way they are drawn (gorgeous eyes, slim waist, big boobs) may cause girls self esteem problems, but the actual characters are very strong, aiding girls in that "I can do anything" attitude that is popular today. A good example of this is Esmerelda from "The Hunchback of Notre Dame." She was independant and strong, and even though she ends up the damsel in distress, it dosen't make her seem week.

[2099net]

I think it's unfair to say that the all have big boobs. Only Esmerelda did really, and that was sort of required for the story. Of course, you could have a valid concern about Jasmine's and Ariel's costumes perhaps.

[snowbot]

And I realize you are writing this for some ulta politically correct professor but what on earth is wrong with a woman needing a man, or the other way around for that matter. My life is certainly better with a good woman in it than being alone.

Well, the professor won't care about political correctness or anything, what's important is that I make an argument either way and then back up my claim with good evidence. Personally, I also feel there's nothing wrong with men and women needing each other, of course, but the question is whether these films portray women as weaker than the men, as being "nobodies" without them, etc. But again, that's just one argument that could be made. I think I'll probably argue the opposite: that these are strong, positive women. Thanks for the insight so far, though. You guys are helping me get the wheels turning. What I need are really good examples to back up this claim. For example, Belle educates herself by reading, and loves someone who is rejected by society because of being different than everyone else.

[Mr. Toad]

I dont think Belle loved the Beast because he was different. I think the point was she was intelligent enough to see not only past the Beast's appearance but also his anger management issues to see his inner beauty.

By the same token she could see past Gaston's good looks to see an ugly human being.

[snowbot]

I dont think Belle loved the Beast because he was different. I think the point was she was intelligent enough to see not only past the Beast's appearance but also his anger management issues to see his inner beauty.

By the same token she could see past Gaston's good looks to see an ugly human being.

Right, that's what I was saying. She loves someone (who happens to be rejected by society for being different), despite his appearance.

However, like you said, I think Ariel would be a poor example. She does give everything up for a guy based on physical attraction, and hates being different than the norm. Her reward in the end is becoming a perfect, ideal princess.
OR you could argue that the movie speaks about true love, and how it transends differences between cultures. But I doubt it, considering that Ariel has to change in order to be accepted.

[snowbot]

I think that the way they are drawn (gorgeous eyes, slim waist, big boobs) may cause girls self esteem problems, but the actual characters are very strong, aiding girls in that "I can do anything" attitude that is popular today. A good example of this is Esmerelda from "The Hunchback of Notre Dame." She was independant and strong, and even though she ends up the damsel in distress, it dosen't make her seem week.

I hadn't considered Esmerelda. She certainly has more depth than some of the others. Esmerelda is a gypsy, but knows she has self-worth despite the society which rejects her people. Also, she doesn't run after the guys, it's the guys that fight over her.

As far as the way the characters are drawn, that's a pretty good point. Do you guys think that Disney films seem to say that "pretty and skinny = good", and "fat and ugly = bad"?

[Prince Adam]

However, like you said, I think Ariel would be a poor example. She does give everything up for a guy based on physical attraction, and hates being different than the norm. Her reward in the end is becoming a perfect, ideal princess.
OR you could argue that the movie speaks about true love, and how it transends differences between cultures. But I doubt it, considering that Ariel has to change in order to be accepted.

I'm sorry, but I must fully disagree.

Ariel wanted to be human, and was fascinated by the human world, long before she first saw Eric. Falling in love with him was just an "added bonus" of sorts.
And she didn't need to change in order to be accepted-she wanted the change. She could've been accepted, she just couldn't accept herself. She had a desire, like we all do, and was willing to go to the lengths she did to fullfill them.

And you could argue that she was vain and wasn't happy with her appearance: however, she viewed her tail as a "disability" of sorts. And none of us has ever been a mermaid so we don't know what that feels like.
You should probably stick to writing about humans.

PS Just read that and seemed a little rude. Sorry for introducing myself like this-I haven't read any of your posts before, so welcome to the forum!

[Mr. Toad]

You have a couple of options here.

If your paper is limited to the 90s as your opening post states you could ignore the Little Mermaid as it came out in 1989.

Alternatively, you can keep the same thesis that Disney portrayal of women was generally strong, but the Little Mermaid's Ariel was the exception. Unless you are debating it is really not necessarily to take one strong black and white stance(of course unless that is the assignment)>

[snowbot]

No, that wasn't rude, Prince Adam! I appreciate different viewpoints. That's what discussion boards are for, right? Anyway, I haven't seen some of these films in a while, so I might feel differently when I re-watch them over the next few days. However, I probably will stick to everything 1990 and after.

Okay, assuming that I argue in favor of the Disney characters (which I would like to do being the Disney aficianado that I am), who would you say are the 3 or 4 most positive female characters from the 90s films? Obviously Belle. What about Pocahontas and Mulan?

[Yuki]

At least Mulan, for sure. She is clumsy, and is considered to never bring honour to her family. Despite this, she is able to go out and do something that no other woman has done before, on her own free will.

[karlsen]

I never liked Mulan just for that reason.
I guess I found it just to "political correct" to make a movie like that.

[Mr. Toad]

Karlsen - I consider Mulan to be the opposite of political correctness.

To me political correctness is labeling something different for no reason than to make it sound less like what it is.

Mulan was about letting your actions and words do your talking and changing yourself and your situation without just whining about it.

I thought Mulan was an excellent movie. Great combination of humour, action and music. Huge improvement over Hunchback and Hercules.

[Jack]

I'd say positive all the way. Of course, some women are villians, but all villians are negatively portrayed. People can pick apart the movies and get an underlying message if they want to, as with practically every movie in existance. But looking at the Disney films both individually, and as a whole, I'd say women are portrayed in a very positive light. Usually, they are strong, thinkers, and beautiful.

[jambo*rafiki]

Welcome, and good idea for a paper! I think Belle and Mulan are certainly good examples, and for others, I'd have to say Pocahontas. I'm surprised no one has mentioned her yet! She stood up for her culture, saved at least one life, and somehow changed peoples' minds when they thought of different people as 'savages'. She's most definately a good role model. And she obviously didn't 'need' a man, because even though she loved John Smith, she didn't go back to England with him, she stayed where her home was. At least, she did until the sequel . . .

[snowbot]

Thanks! You're right, Pocahontas seems to be a good role model.
Also, just for the record, I think I've changed my mind a bit about Ariel. If you think about it, it was her family and friends that were afraid of people different than themselves, and Ariel took great risk to see what else was out there, resulting in bringing the two worlds together.

[iamthejo]

One of my friends did a paper on a similar topic actually. I remember some of her research. Here, http://www.newint.org/issue308/dolls.html this ought to help you with the basic arguments as to why Disney heroines are weak portrayals of women. Personally, I disagree with all of it.

The author also argues that Belle isn't a good role model. To paraphrase, Belle's sticking around after the Beast has proven to have violent tendencies teaches women to stay with abusive men under the belief that if you are kind enough you can change their ways. Which obviously is untrue. All Belle fans out there, please don't kill me for this. I'm just repeating what the author said.

I admit that it's interesting logic, albeit extremely flawed. Oh, and welcome to the board Snowbot

[mvealf]

I think it's unfair to say that the all have big boobs. Only Esmerelda did really, and that was sort of required for the story. Of course, you could have a valid concern about Jasmine's and Ariel's costumes perhaps.

What about Pocahontas? They portray her as a runway model, when in reality she was a short fat eskimo woman.

Definately the later movies made it a point to portray women as strong, to a ridiculous degree. Like Jasmine making the statement, "I'm not a prize to be won". Actually during that time in history, she would have been. Then there's Snow White with her attitude of, "maybe if I clean the house, they'll let me stay". There was a definate change in Disney women over the years.

Then there are the great women villians. I almost took up smoking, just so I could put out my cigarettes in cupcakes, like Cruella De Vil.

[Prince Adam]

The author also argues that Belle isn't a good role model. To paraphrase, Belle's sticking around after the Beast has proven to have violent tendencies teaches women to stay with abusive men under the belief that if you are kind enough you can change their ways. Which obviously is untrue. All Belle fans out there, please don't kill me for this. I'm just repeating what the author said.

I admit that it's interesting logic, albeit extremely flawed. Oh, and welcome to the board Snowbot

That is the stupidest thing I've ever heard! The Beast was not her companion in any way before the wolf chase, and after that, he wasn't abusive in any way.
Remember-he was her captor, not her lover. That didn't come until later.

I'm not going against you iamthejo-I know you were just quoting it. But I think it's so stupid...