Brave vs Frozen II

[Farerb]

Since these two are perceived as the weakest "Princess" films in the last 10 years and even share similar scores (77-78). I was wondering which of the two is your least favorite?

[Sotiris]

Frozen 2. While both are flawed, Frozen 2 is more interesting. It also has better characters, visuals and music.

[UmbrellaFish]

For me, it is Frozen II. I actually really liked it— yes, it has problems but it has problems because it took risks which is more than can be said for most of Disney’s (and Pixar’s) output in the past 10 years. Brave, on the other hand, is a disappointing iteration of a tried and true formula.

[Disney's Divinity]

Frozen II, and it's not close. I prefer Frozen II to Tangled and Moana as well, tbh. Tangled is messy because of the Dreamworks-y accents at random moments throughout. Moana's big flaw is that it's often dull and a lot of it feels been-here-done-that. I'd rank Brave below Tangled and Moana though--below all of the Disney princess films (past or present), actually. The only part of the film I ever liked about that one was the Witch's scene. Oh, and Fergus and Elinor are really cute together. Otherwise, meh.

[DisneyFan09]

Since these two are perceived as the weakest "Princess" films in the last 10 years and even share similar scores (77-78). I was wondering which of the two is your least favorite?

Is Frozen II truly regarded as one of the weakest "Princess" films during the past decade? I know it had it`s naysayers, but I never thought that it was perceived as being the weakest.

I know that I`m the minority, but for me it`s Brave. Despite of it`s faults, it still was a captivating and compelling movie, nonetheless. With a great soundtrack, great visuals and managed to break the mold of having a Princess who rebels against arranged marriage and manages to stay single at the end. Frozen II is fine, though. I`ve given it more rewatches than I`ve ever did with it`s predecessor. Which says something.

[Farerb]

Is Frozen II truly regarded as one of the weakest "Princess" films during the past decade? I know it had it`s naysayers, but I never thought that it was perceived as being the weakest.

I know that I`m the minority, but for me it`s Brave. Despite of it`s faults, it still was a captivating and compelling movie, nonetheless. With a great soundtrack, great visuals and managed to break the mold of having a Princess who rebels against arranged marriage and manages to stay single at the end. Frozen II is fine, though. I`ve given it more rewatches than I`ve ever did with it`s predecessor. Which says something.

I've based it on the fact that It was the lowest ranked WDAS film since Meet the Robinsons and that it wasn't nominated in the Animation category in the Academy Awards. Everything else is pretty subjective, but IMO except for an initial hype, it didn't really have a cultural impact beyond whatever grace left from the original film, but maybe that's just me, like I said it's subjective.

So the reason I even asked this question is because I decided to watch both films today and quite frankly I felt like both were really disjointed and boring, but I think I might prefer Brave because for some reason it feels more "cinematic" and while Frozen II have great visuals, its story feels "made for TV", I mean can you imagine one if the Renaissance films waste their time on a game of charades? That's how much it feels like they really had no idea what they're doing, but the most jarring thing to me about Frozen II is how much the "Frozen" feeling from the original was lost, mainly because the original wrapped its identity around subversions which were really lacking here. Moreover the stakes weren't high enough, basically everything revolved around destroying a dam, unlike the "apocalypse" of the first film.
Regarding Brave, the more I watch it, the less interested I am. IDK maybe I just got tired of watching Disney or Pixar, but yeah the film doesn't hold my interest anymore. I do however think it feels more "complete" (at least in terms of characters arc) than Frozen II.

[DisneyFan09]

I've based it on the fact that It was the lowest ranked WDAS film since Meet the Robinsons and that it wasn't nominated in the Animation category in the Academy Awards. Everything else is pretty subjective, but IMO except for an initial hype, it didn't really have a cultural impact beyond whatever grace left from the original film, but maybe that's just me, like I said it's subjective.

So the reason I even asked this question is because I decided to watch both films today and quite frankly I felt like both were really disjointed and boring, but I think I might prefer Brave because for some reason it feels more "cinematic" and while Frozen II have great visuals, its story feels "made for TV", I mean can you imagine one if the Renaissance films waste their time on a game of charades? That's how much it feels like they really had no idea what they're doing, but the most jarring thing to me about Frozen II is how much the "Frozen" feeling from the original was lost, mainly because the original wrapped its identity around subversions which were really lacking here. Moreover the stakes weren't high enough, basically everything revolved around destroying a dam, unlike the "apocalypse" of the first film.
Regarding Brave, the more I watch it, the less interested I am. IDK maybe I just got tired of watching Disney or Pixar, but yeah the film doesn't hold my interest anymore. I do however think it feels more "complete" (at least in terms of characters arc) than Frozen II.

Alright, fair enough.

To be honest, I felt that Brave`s storyline was more disjointed, as the bear plotline changed the story into a completely different direction that the story didn`t needed. But to Brave`s defense, both Merida and Ellinor were genuinely developed after the change. So there was a genuine arc for both mother and daughter.

As for Frozen II, I agree that the plot was somewhat skimpy and thin. But as for the charades, it wasn`t a big part of the story, anyways. It was just a minor subplot that didn`t even was the catalyst for the events. So I don`t find it wasted.

[Redadoodles]

I would choose Brave over Frozen II any day. Even though the film is not amazing, it doesn't feel like propaganda nor a huge excuse for merchandizing. Frozen II was so awful to me that I started to question my passion for animation (and I am not exaggerating).

[Sotiris]

Frozen II was so awful to me that I started to question my passion for animation (and I am not exaggerating).

Wow. That's quite a reaction. I'm curious, what specifically about Frozen 2 made you feel that way?

[Redadoodles]

Frozen II was so awful to me that I started to question my passion for animation (and I am not exaggerating).

Wow. That's quite a reaction. I'm curious, what specifically about Frozen 2 made you feel that way?

That's exactly my issue. I didn't feel anything. I went to watch the first one seven times in theatre (in four different countries) so that shows that I was quite enthusiastic about a sequel and I didn't mind Frozen Fever nor Olaf's Christmas Adventure.
However, with this film I felt absolutely nothing to the point that I had to turn to my friend around 30 minutes in and ask "is it me or is this film terrible ?".
It might sound a bit dramatic but for someone who chose animation as a career and has worked in the industry for several years, I thought I had reached the point where I stopped being passionate about the craft when in reality it was just the film that was poorly conceived.
Mind you I absolutely NEVER EVER talk during a screening no matter how good or awful a film might be but in this case I was so confused as to why I didn't smile nor even felt engaged at any point that I had to ask.
On another note, the musical numbers were quite bland for the most part, the script was not only predictable but also badly structured. I really don't mind clichés but they were horribly handled and as for the characters, I literally couldn't stand most of them (especially Olaf and Anna).

Now, not everything is awful in the film of course. I mean, "Into the unknown" and "Show yourself" are lovely, the character design work is impeccable, the voice acting quite nice and visually it might be the most beautiful (Cgi) animated film I have ever seen but it isn't enough for me.
I tried to give it a third viewing and had it in the background while I was working a few weeks ago and while it was less horrible this time around, it was still quite underwhelming but anyway, this only my humble opinion.

[D82]

Brave is by far my favorite of the two. I have a similar opinion of Frozen 2 than you, Redadoodles. It didn't make me doubt of my love for animation, but it made me worried about the future of the studio. And it has now become my least favorite WDAS film. There are other films that are probably worse (like Chicken Little, for example), but I enjoy them a bit more. They may be simpler, less ambitious or more formulaic, but at least their story makes sense. Frozen 2 has some good elements (like visuals, songs...), some good characters and ideas, but several of the most important plot points don't have a logical explanation and there are too many characters and themes that aren't developed enough. I compare it to a house that is very well decorated, but its structure is weak. And the good qualities in it is precisely what makes it worse for me, because while I'm watching it I'm constantly getting the sense that it's a huge lost opportunity. Something similar happens to me with Mary Poppins Returns, though if I had to choose between the two, I'd choose that film over Frozen 2. Also, the first movie has a more traditional kind of magic and the transition to tribal magic from the sequel doesn't completely work for me. I mean, it's a too different kind of film. And come to think of it, it didn't produce many emotions on me either. I didn't even tear up during the saddest moments. I've seen it twice now. I gave it a second chance a couple of months ago, but my opinion of it hasn't changed. That said, I'm glad other people enjoy it and see things in it I personally don't. Though, of course, I'm also glad I'm not alone in thinking it's not a very good movie.

Brave is one of the weakest Pixar films, in my opinion, but I quite like the characters, especially Elinor, but also Merida and Fergus, and I like the fact that despite it borrows a lot from past Disney films, it feels Pixar, not Disney. And again, though the story's not too original (at least compared to other Pixar films), it's coherent.

By the way, I know you're not new to the forum, Redadoodles, but you hadn't commented before, right? So, welcome to the discussion! I've checked the link to your facebook account and your artwork is really nice. You're very talented!

I know that I`m the minority, but for me it`s Brave. Despite of it`s faults, it still was a captivating and compelling movie, nonetheless. With a great soundtrack, great visuals and managed to break the mold of having a princess who rebels against arranged marriage and manages to stay single at the end. Frozen II is fine, though. I`ve given it more rewatches than I`ve ever did with it`s predecessor. Which says something.

I had forgotten she was the first princess who didn't get married at the end. I always think the film didn't end up being very revolutionary, but at least they were the first in doing that. Another aspect that was also innovative in my opinion and is not mentioned very often is that she's not a typical beauty like previous princesses, but it looks more like a regular teenager. There's nothing wrong with beautiful female protagonists, but I think it was nice to have a different type of princess for a change.

[Redadoodles]

Brave is by far my favorite of the two. I have a similar opinion of Frozen 2 than you, Redadoodles. It didn't make me doubt of my love for animation, but it made me worried about the future of the studio. And it has now become my least favorite WDAS film. There are other films that are probably worse (like Chicken Little, for example), but I enjoy them a bit more. They may be simpler, less ambitious or more formulaic, but at least their story makes sense. Frozen 2 has some good elements (like visuals, songs...), some good characters and ideas, but several of the most important plot points don't have a logical explanation and there are too many characters and themes that aren't developed enough. I compare it to a house that is very well decorated, but its structure is weak. And the good qualities in it is precisely what makes it worse for me, because while I'm watching it I'm constantly getting the sense that it's a huge lost opportunity. Something similar happens to me with Mary Poppins Returns, though if I had to choose between the two, I'd choose that film over Frozen 2. Also, the first movie has a more traditional kind of magic and the transition to tribal magic from the sequel doesn't completely work for me. I mean, it's a too different kind of film. And come to think of it, it didn't produce many emotions on me either. I didn't even tear up during the saddest moments. I've seen it twice now. I gave it a second chance a couple of months ago, but my opinion of it hasn't changed. That said, I'm glad other people enjoy it and see things in it I personally don't. Though, of course, I'm also glad I'm not alone in thinking it's not a very good movie.

Brave is one of the weakest Pixar films, in my opinion, but I quite like the characters, especially Elinor, but also Merida and Fergus, and I like the fact that despite it borrows a lot from past Disney films, it feels Pixar, not Disney. And again, though the story's not too original (at least compared to other Pixar films), it's coherent.

By the way, I know you're not new to the forum, Redadoodles, but you hadn't commented before, right? So, welcome to the discussion! I've checked the link to your facebook account and your artwork is really nice. You're very talented!

I know that I`m the minority, but for me it`s Brave. Despite of it`s faults, it still was a captivating and compelling movie, nonetheless. With a great soundtrack, great visuals and managed to break the mold of having a princess who rebels against arranged marriage and manages to stay single at the end. Frozen II is fine, though. I`ve given it more rewatches than I`ve ever did with it`s predecessor. Which says something.

I had forgotten she was the first princess who didn't get married at the end. I always think the film didn't end up being very revolutionary, but at least they were the first in doing that. Another aspect that was also innovative in my opinion and is not mentioned very often is that she's not a typical beauty like previous princesses, but it looks more like a regular teenager. There's nothing wrong with beautiful female protagonists, but I think it was nice to have a different type of princess for a change.

Thank you for your kind words. I've decided to start posting on her randomly a few days ago.

-Belle didn't get married at the end of Beauty and the Beast. It was a celebration of a new era.
-Jasmine didn't get married at the end of Aladdin. I think they were celebrating her 16th birthday.
-Pocahontas didn't get married nor remained with her love interest.
-Mulan barely started dating Shang at the end of her film.
-Kida didn't get married either at the end of her film.
There was no wedding between The Little Mermaid (1989) until The Princess And The Frog (2009).

...So yeah, Merida is really NOT as groundbreaking as Brenda Chapman makes her out to be as her rebellious ways were already seen with Ariel, Belle and Jasmine who all defied expectations. Also, Merida is rescued by Elinor twice so she also has a damsel in distress side.

[Farerb]

As far as I know there was nothing to suggest that Aladdin and Jasmine didn't get married at the end.
Anyway Brenda Chapman's point was that the Princess didn't end up with a guy at the end, not just marriage.
Regardless, I don't subscribers to the mindset that "romance is bad" that has become a trend in recent years, I'm fine with the princess being with the prince at the end as long as she is defined by other aspects, other wants and other needs other than being with the guy and Disney were successful at that IMO, especially in the 90's.

[Disney's Divinity]

Thank you for your kind words. I've decided to start posting on her randomly a few days ago.

-Belle didn't get married at the end of Beauty and the Beast. It was a celebration of a new era.
-Jasmine didn't get married at the end of Aladdin. I think they were celebrating her 16th birthday.
-Pocahontas didn't get married nor remained with her love interest.
-Mulan barely started dating Shang at the end of her film.
-Kida didn't get married either at the end of her film.
There was no wedding between The Little Mermaid (1989) until The Princess And The Frog (2009).

...So yeah, Merida is really NOT as groundbreaking as Brenda Chapman makes her out to be as her rebellious ways were already seen with Ariel, Belle and Jasmine who all defied expectations. Also, Merida is rescued by Elinor twice so she also has a damsel in distress side.

Idk, I think that’s really stretching it. We technically don’t see Snow White or Aurora marry at the end of their films either, but it’s implied. I do like when films are more open in the sense that you can believe they courted for a while before marrying. Still, marriage and HEA is a given with most of those, imo. And they definitely marry at the end of Aladdin. The AWNW (reprise) follows the Sultan giving Jasmine permission to marry whoever she chooses.

There’s a lot I don’t like about Brave, but I do give Brenda Chapman props for what she was going for with Merida. I wonder if the film would’ve been more coherent if Lasseter and the other white guys at PIXAR hadn’t interfered and run her off.

[Redadoodles]

Thank you for your kind words. I've decided to start posting on her randomly a few days ago.

-Belle didn't get married at the end of Beauty and the Beast. It was a celebration of a new era.
-Jasmine didn't get married at the end of Aladdin. I think they were celebrating her 16th birthday.
-Pocahontas didn't get married nor remained with her love interest.
-Mulan barely started dating Shang at the end of her film.
-Kida didn't get married either at the end of her film.
There was no wedding between The Little Mermaid (1989) until The Princess And The Frog (2009).

...So yeah, Merida is really NOT as groundbreaking as Brenda Chapman makes her out to be as her rebellious ways were already seen with Ariel, Belle and Jasmine who all defied expectations. Also, Merida is rescued by Elinor twice so she also has a damsel in distress side.

Idk, I think that’s really stretching it. We technically don’t see Snow White or Aurora marry at the end of their films either, but it’s implied. I do like when films are more open in the sense that you can believe they courted for a while before marrying. Still, marriage and HEA is a given with most of those, imo. And they definitely marry at the end of Aladdin. The AWNW (reprise) follows the Sultan giving Jasmine permission to marry whoever she chooses.

There’s a lot I don’t like about Brave, but I do give Brenda Chapman props for what she was going for with Merida. I wonder if the film would’ve been more coherent if Lasseter and the other white guys at PIXAR hadn’t interfered and run her off.

Of course most of them do get married. That wasn't my point. I was only suggesting that those weddings did not take place in their respective films. They happen off-screen for most of them. The only weddings we get to see are the ones of Cinderella, Ariel and Tiana.
As for Jasmine, she did NOT get married at the end of Aladdin. She got married at the end of Aladdin's second sequel The King Of Thieves which takes place after both The Return of Jaffar and the Aladdin tv series.

[thedisneyspirit]

Careful, before long the cultists are gonna start saying Faline or Vixey are better characters than Merida bc "women with partners are better tan insecure single spinsters".

And like, we know Merida or Moana don't deserve recognition for being single or being more average in looks bc some white blonde skinny bimbo deserves it more bc "feminine white women can find love too"...As if we haven't heard that statement for the last 300 years.

[Redadoodles]

Careful, before long the cultists are gonna start saying Faline or Vixey are better characters than Merida bc "women with partners are better tan insecure single spinsters".

And like, we know Merida or Moana don't deserve recognition for being single or being more average in looks bc some white blonde skinny bimbo deserves it more bc "feminine white women can find love too"...As if we haven't heard that statement for the last 300 years.

Who are you talking to ? Did I say Merida was a bad character ? I said she wasn't groundbreaking.

[Disney's Divinity]

Careful, before long the cultists are gonna start saying Faline or Vixey are better characters than Merida bc "women with partners are better tan insecure single spinsters".

And like, we know Merida or Moana don't deserve recognition for being single or being more average in looks bc some white blonde skinny bimbo deserves it more bc "feminine white women can find love too"...As if we haven't heard that statement for the last 300 years.

I know you're exaggerating, but I honestly wouldn't be surprised to read that on this forum at this point. Incel rage at powerful women--even when they're fictional--is in vogue all over the Internet these days. Any accomplishment for a female character or female-driven film or woman in real life must be derided or invalidated in some way.

[Farerb]

I find some of the comments here from the so called "feminists" pretty ironic cause not long ago I remember they made comments dissing Rapunzel and Moana or saying that Belle or Jasmine needed "improvements".

As for my opinion - I think Cinderella has as much value as Mulan or Moana, a woman is valuable wearing a dress as much as holding a sword (quite frankly dissing women for wearing dresses just because it's feminine is nothing short of misogyny).

To quote Jennifer Lee:

[...] I talk about Cinderella being that for me when I was bullied. And I put it on everyday while I was doing homework or I'd have her voice in the background and she was such a good person and it would say "Don't believe the bullies. Don't -- You've got this"

[Redadoodles]

Careful, before long the cultists are gonna start saying Faline or Vixey are better characters than Merida bc "women with partners are better tan insecure single spinsters".

And like, we know Merida or Moana don't deserve recognition for being single or being more average in looks bc some white blonde skinny bimbo deserves it more bc "feminine white women can find love too"...As if we haven't heard that statement for the last 300 years.

I know you're exaggerating, but I honestly wouldn't be surprised to read that on this forum at this point. Incel rage at powerful women--even when they're fictional--is in vogue all over the Internet these days. Any accomplishment for a female character or female-driven film or woman in real life must be derided or invalidated in some way.

...And they would be right for most of them are horribly written.
You have Mulan as an avatar so I guess you're a fan of hers and I would hope that the treatment of her character in the live action remake didn't please you.