pledge of "allegiance"

[tanyahead]

you guys know how in many schools we pledge to the flag? well, does anyone really know what it really means? in my opinion, also my sister's, we think they are trying to somehow control us, and make us do things for them... like give them our money. notice how we start memorizing those words from when we are in kindergarten? or even preschool? what if some of us aren't even "religious"? i don't really care that they have the word "god" in there(myself not being religious), but the fact that its against the law to practice religion in most schools bothers me! no offense to anyone, this is just what i think. i know a lot of people who don't worship god or anything, and they still say the pledge. i, myself, do not anymore since this has been brought up to me. Also, i shouldnt even be forced to say it.. duh! im not even full american! i have two nationalities, and still they tell me to say it...

i dont know.. you guys help me out... what do you think?

[MickeyMouseboy]

I voted no! Because pledging allengience to the flag is a form of worship. like the name says you're pledging your allengance to it.

"The flag, like the cross, is sacred. . . . The rules and regulations relative to human attitude toward national standards use strong, expressive words, as, 'Service to the Flag,' . . . 'Reverence for the Flag,' 'Devotion to the Flag.'"-The Encyclopedia Americana (1942), Volume 11, page 316.

Historical evidence indicates that the first Christians did not involve themselves in political affairs. As Jesus said of them: "They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world." (John 17:16) Rather, they shared a common allegiance to a heavenly government, God's Kingdom.

New York educators Eugene A. Colligan and Maxwell F. Littwin said regarding them in the book From the Old World to the New: "They preferred the Kingdom of God to any kingdom that they might serve on earth."

"Early Christianity was little understood and was regarded with little favor by those who ruled the pagan world. . . . Christians refused to share certain duties of Roman citizens. . . . They would not hold political office."-On the Road to Civilization, A World History (1937), by Albert K. Heckel and James G. Sigman, pages 237, 238.

"The Roman government called the Christians enemies of the state. They would not serve in the Roman army. They refused to salute the emperor's statue, which meant the same to Roman society that a nation's flag does to citizens today. They were loyal only to their religion."-Man-His World and Cultures (1974), by Edith McCall, Evalyn Rapparlie and Jack Spatafora, pages 67, 68.

I hope I don't get people mad with my religious talk This is just the reason why MMBoy and other Christians don't salute the flag.

To Tany: You don't have to salute the flag if you don't want to. This is a free country not a dictatorship! you can show respect to everyone else in the room by standing up. but that's all

[STASHONE]

...

"Wave those flags with pride, especially the white part."

[RobJohansen]

I don't think anyone could explain it better to you than Red Skelton. Do a Google search for Red Skelton Pledge of Allegiance, and you will get thousands of results, many with recordings you can hear.

Here is one site:
http://www.mindspring.com/~polysne/red.html

and here is the text:

I - - Me; an individual; a committee of one.
Pledge - - Dedicate all of my worldly goods to give without self-pity.

Allegiance - - My love and my devotion.

To the Flag - - Our standard; Old Glory ; a symbol of Freedom; wherever she waves there is respect, because your loyalty has given her a dignity that shouts, Freedom is everybody's job.

United - - That means that we have all come together.

States - - Individual communities that have united into forty-eight great states. Forty-eight individual communities with pride and dignity and purpose. All divided with imaginary boundaries, yet united to a common purpose, and that is love for country.

And to the Republic - - Republic--a state in which sovereign power is invested in representatives chosen by the people to govern. And government is the people; and it's from the people to the leaders, not from the leaders to the people.

For which it stands

One Nation - - One Nation--meaning, so blessed by God.

Indivisible - - Incapable of being divided.

With Liberty - - Which is Freedom; the right of power to live one's own life, without threats, fear, or some sort of retaliation.

And Justice - - The principle, or qualities, of dealing fairly with others.

For All - - For All--which means, boys and girls, it's as much your country as it is mine.

And now, boys and girls, let me hear you recite the Pledge of Allegiance:

I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic, for which it stands; one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

Since I was a small boy, two states have been added to our country, and two words have been added to the Pledge of Allegiance: Under God. Wouldn't it be a pity if someone said that is a prayer, and that would be eliminated from schools, too?

Red Skelton

[MickeyMousePal]

Yes, the pledge of allegiance should be said in school.
I did the pledge of allegiance all my life since I went to school.
If someone doesn't want to do the pledge of allegiance it's him or her choice.

[Loomis]

As a non-American, i wonder if I am allowed to comment on this?

I kind of agree with tanyahead's comments, in the sense that the repeitition of any matra every day without looking to the meaning of it is a pure waste of time. And it is a form of control.

I find the use of the word "God" in there a little disturbing too. As I have pointed out in the "Passion of the Christ" thread many times, which god? It is all well and good to say the majority of Americans are christian, but what of the large number who are not? America IS meant to pride itself on multiculturalism and tolerance to others. I question whether asking children to pledge to a god they do not necessarily believe in is a good thing to do.

I believe that in any culture, the freedom of speech should be tantamount. I believe this not only includes allowing everybody to express their opinion, but also not making certain types of speech institutionalised (such as the pledge, or a daily prayer for example). I think this inhibits free speech just as much as not allowing someone to say what is on their minds. In other words, the forced repeition of a phrase or pledge inhibits free thinking, which in turn inhibits free speech. I have been arguing with people over religious issues, and they will constantly turn to the bible for their argument. That's their belief, fine. But to me it demonstrates that the constant repetition of bible teachings has stopped those people from thinking "outside the box" as it were.

As for the flag, I would like to quote the late great Bill Hicks:
"Hey, buddy! My daddy died for that flag! Really? I bought mine. They sell 'em in K-Mart..."

I think in the end if people feel strongly patriotic, then that is enough. When it comes to the crunch, that will be seen. However, a constant reaffirmation of that so-called patriotism does not make one any more "American" than if you did not make the pledge at all.

So in the end, I would say no - it should certainly not be in public schools, any more than a prayer, mantra or sacrificial druid ceremony should.

[Ludwig Von Drake]

the flag represents America even though when I say "under god" I may not be refering to the same god as when someone else says it the pledge is still universal. It brings everyone together in support of America. I think that it should be said in schools.

If "under god" is taken out, what next... Will our money be changed, will the national anthem be changed, even though there is a seperation of church and state this country was founded on religous ideals.

[wwwjim]

I think it should be said in schools, with students voluntarily deciding whether to participate.

I think it is important to have pride in your country, no matter what country that is. To me the pledge is simply a reminder to the students that they are Americans.

I am certainly not a fan of the current presidential administration, but I do not believe the pledge is insisting we pledge unconditional allegiance to whichever person or party is in power. It instead suggests that we all should be committed to making the country a better place. If you don't like the direction in which the country is headed, use your vote to change it or your time to improve it. If your country is in need, do what you can to help it.

Many people these days do not feel a sense of connection to their past or to their country. That's a shame. Our forefathers in each and every country on this planet made sacrifices for today's generations. The pledge reminds us that we will have to make our own sacrifces for future generations.

Comments are welcome.

[karlsen]

Nothing is more "American" to me then listening to John Wayne making the pledge on his record.

[Loomis]

If "under god" is taken out, what next... Will our money be changed, will the national anthem be changed, even though there is a seperation of church and state this country was founded on religous ideals.

Yeah! And small babies will be raped by pit-bulls in the street!

I think that is a little harsh and extreme - and exactly the kind of atitude that scares me.

As I said - which "god" are we under? There are 7000 of them created by humans, and America is meant to be the land that accepts ALL cultures (unless of course you look a little shifty post 9/11 and wear some middle eastern headwear, then they won't even let you near the airport). Some people don't believe in god (shock! horror!), and for some that non-belief in god is a basis for their own cultural beliefs. Does the pledge take account of them as well?

As I said before, the constant repetition of something puts a freeze on independent thought. Your comment here proves that to me. You have automatically assumed that one little change in your pledge will start a cascade effect destroying your entire way of life. Hmm....doesn't sound like the "land of the free" to me. We have had the same debate here - if you change the anthem, you are changing the country for the worse. How? What is currency but a bit of paper? What is patriotism but a pride for the fact you live in the country where your parents shagged and gave birth to you?

Don't you see that a country founded on religious ideals is a little dangerous? You have just been through a war in which "religious ideals" were bandied around quite freely. Did that not make you stop and think "Gee, maybe we DO need to be a little accepting of other cultures? Even if they aren't democracies". I think god needs to be taken out of the equation, especially if he is leading you all to war.

The church and the state must be separate, otherwise you can't truly call yourselves a multicultural nation. These references to god in various US institutions - like your 2nd Amendment right to bear arms - are a hangover from a different time and place. What makes you think that you - the current generation of Americans - can agree to chnage that without destroying your way of life? The Patriot Act proved that the First Amendment was just being paid lip service anyways...

Anyhoo, live long and prosper.

[Son of the Morning]

I'm a student of history. I'm an American, and I'm proud of that as an ideal, but humiliated about it on the international scale due to the way the country is being run.

I also believe in abstract divinity.

I am 100% against the saying of the pledge of allegiance in school, and if possible, even more against the phrase "Under God."

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT., Jan. 1, 1802

[wwwjim]

I'm a student of history. I'm an American, and I'm proud of that as an ideal, but humiliated about it on the international scale due to the way the country is being run.

I also believe in abstract divinity.

I agree with your dislike of the current administration, but that is exactly why I believe we as Americans need to rededicate ourselves to the country. The country needs you more than ever precisely because we are so divded internally and in such disrepute internationally. The pledge doesn't mean you support the administration but the nation.

You know, I was just thinking after the post I made just above this one...

Would it change your vote if the poll read:

"Should the pledge be said in school:

Yes, as it is
Yes, without 'under God'
No
Don't Care"

Is your concern with the divinity aspect of the pledge or the principle of vowing allegiance to the country that bothers you?

[Son of the Morning]

I agree with your dislike of the current administration, but that is exactly why I believe we as Americans need to rededicate ourselves to the country. The country needs you more than ever precisely because we are so divded internally and in such disrepute internationally. The pledge doesn't mean you support the administration but the nation.

If someone supports the nation, they do so on their own, and I guarantee that the pledge does not influence their standpoint at all, especially since we're dealing with children.

I take issue with the very terminology of the pledge and how it can be interpreted, as well. By pledging allegiance to the flag, you are vowing to stand by the nation irregardless of where it goes. This, I cannot do. I vehemently support the ideals that this country was founded upon, and I adore the idealistic notions of free-enterprise and self-worth that lifted this country to its feet, but I'm horrified currently to see such apathy in the public. What people fail to realize is that in the system of checks and balances, the public is a fourth, very powerful check to the government's power, but people DON'T call them on it... in fact, in many cases, they WANT the government to get involved in order to censor unpopular speech or to shield them from it. Attribute it to tyranny of the majority.

I'm greatly saddened by the current state of affairs in America, and I think the country needs an inside-kick in the ass. The last things we need are future generations of people raised on the ideas of supporting the country whereever it goes, ONLY because of the generally accepted interpretation of supporting the government as the supposed pilots of all this... which, again, is a huge misinterpretation and we as a people seem content to watch the power shift.

For the record, I'm a senior in high school, and I haven't said the pledge of allegiance since I was in seventh grade. I was only called on it once, and I was very firm, and very clear about my objection. The teacher continued to protest, until I showed her the LEGAL precedent in my favor.

[Son of the Morning]

You know, I was just thinking after the post I made just above this one...

Would it change your vote if the poll read:

"Should the pledge be said in school:

Yes, as it is
Yes, without 'under God'
No
Don't Care"

Is your concern with the divinity aspect of the pledge or the principle of vowing allegiance to the country that bothers you?

From a purely objective standpoint, it is only the phrase of "Under God" that bothers me. I think that if the Supreme Court upholds the pledge as is, it sets a very dangerous precedent for the right-wing Americans that have sought to crash the border between church and state for ages. Attribute it to tyranny of the majority.

[buffalobill]

Under God disturbs me as it does others but even if it was changed to the original pledge I would be opposed to it being said in schools. I'm also disturbed by the current administration with their "if you don't agree with us you are an evil traiterous person" attitude. I think the Patriot Act should be scrapped or changed immensely when it expires. Free Speech Zones are an evil joke by a White House which seems to be more paranoid than the Nixon one (which I was around for). I'll be working as a volunteer (as I was 4 years ago) to get out the vote for Democratic candidates that will return the freedoms that we've lost the last 4 years & hopefully appoint judges who will begin to separate church and state again. Hopefully Florida will go in the Blue column this year (with all votes counted & Nader ignored). END OF RANT.

[Loomis]

I'm also disturbed by the current administration with their "if you don't agree with us you are an evil traiterous person" attitude. I think the Patriot Act should be scrapped or changed immensely when it expires.

Thank you BB. You pretty much summed up what it took me about 3 posts to say

I'm finding a lot of it stems from 9/11 too. The civil servants who lost their lives became heroes (and I'm not denying their sacrifice). But for a long time afterwards you couldn't say a bad word against any police in the US, or else you were defiling the memory of the dead (I have a number of family friends in New York who are either retired NYPD or current NYFD, and they expressed this feeling to me, so I'm not just pulling this out of my arse ). That then became extended to any government autrhority - you couldn't question it or you were seen as "un-American".

And this isn't isolated to America either, I don't want to seem overly biased against you guys (some of you are OK, I guess... ). Our PM called some war protesters "un-Australian and ugly" a few years ago, but his conservative politics are not too far off Bush's in many respects (he pledged our troops to the Gulf as well).

From my understanding of the Patriot Act, I have to agree. This is a dangerous piece of legislation...

[Churafairy]

well i relli don't care if we say the pledge in the school...

The pledge is like for bein an american citizn but every1 is been botherd by the god part mostly cause of their rlegion but i think dat it should'nt relli matter because almost every religion belives in a god, so i don't relli see the problem i mean maybe i just don't understand how strongly some people belive in there rligion but if your think about it for a while you might understand wut i mean i'm confusing sumtimes lol but if we stop saying the pledge or keep saying it i don't see the diffrence maybe i'm just stupid hehe : but i'm not dat religous so da god part dose'nt bother me n i belive in god hehe

[tanyahead]

wow feedback. i kinda thought no one would reply. well thanks you guys. i did some research... kinda, and found that the supreme court or something says you dont have to stand for the pledge. to me the "one nation under god" part doesnt bother me just by itself. well it does bother me since i dont really know what god is. i know it is a bit patriotic to pledge to our country's flag, but i feel like the government is trying to control us somehow... We should have a choice! and at my school, they even SAID they cant practice any religion... man im just confusing myself.

[wwwjim]

I'm greatly saddened by the current state of affairs in America, and I think the country needs an inside-kick in the ass.

Here I totally agree with you. I just don't see banning the pledge as contributing to that kick. I guess what bothers me most is that banning the pledge is going too far in the other direction.

Forcing someone to say the pledge violates an individual's right to free speech.

Forcing someone NOT to say the pledge ALSO violates an individual's right to free speech.

[Loomis]

Interesting related article:

God has day in US court
http://www.news.com.au/common/story_pag ... 62,00.html

"PROTESTERS prayed outside the US Supreme Court yesterday as an atheist doctor argued inside the court that his daughter should not be exposed to the words "under God" during her school's daily Pledge of Allegiance to the US flag."