DVD releases of movies from the Xerox era

[Rumpelstiltskin]

I have noticed that Disney often put a frame or more from the movie on the DVD cover when they release a new DVD. But it is very rare that they do this with animated fatures made between 1960 and 1990. Instead, there is new artwork based on the characters.
Could it be that Disney think less people will be interested in buying them if the Xerox lines are visible on the cover? For me, the style represents nostalgia.

[rodis]

I don't recall a cover where the characters on it were taken directly from the cel or whatever they used with CAPS.
They're always redrawn for the cover.

And do you really think it's a problem for Disney to erase the Xerox lines if they wanted to use it on the cover?

[Rumpelstiltskin]

I'm not referring ot the front cover, but the back.

Disney could probably do something about the lines if they wanted to, but why risk being accused of cheating, like adding colors to frames taken from a movie in black and white, when it is much easier to just add something new to it?

[blackcauldron85]

(This is literally the only thread in Disney Discussion w/ "Xerox" in the title...)

Can anyone explain to me how the Animation Transfer Process (APT) is different than the Xerox technique? I just don't understand...I'm reading it but not comprehending...dyes being sandwiched...?

• https://d23.com/a-to-z/animation-photo- ... r-process/

• https://www.revolvy.com/page/Animation- ... er-process

• https://wikivisually.com/wiki/Animation ... er_process

• https://2danimations.blogspot.com/2007/ ... ocess.html

• https://books.google.com/books?id=s52EA ... +Transfer)

[Rumpelstiltskin]

Good luck with that. I have tried to find some more detailed info for a long time, but without succeeding. I have even sent a couple of emails to someone who should know (it's been a while ago, so I don't remember), but never got a reply.
People call this the information age, but often it is just as difficult to find what you're looking for as it would have been without the internet.

It was supposed to have been a breakthrough, but apparently the technique still had "child diseases" causing problems, so it was probably only used on The Black Cauldron, and only partially.

I read somewhere a while back, but can't seem to find it again, that the challenges with the Xerox process had never been 100% solved. One of the problems is that thin lines are very difficult.

The Xerox method has been described as " "a clean, fast, dry direct positive, electrostatic copying process". "The black lines of a xerox image are made up of thousands of tiny dust-like grains of pigment which have rushed onto the charged areas of an electrostatic field before being fixed by heat to the paper." Or course, other colors than just black would become available later.

The ATP method was a wet chemical process, with some similarities with traditional photography. But it is not particularly well explained. I'm having trouble visualizing the whole sandwich thing.

[blackcauldron85]

At least you gave me dry vs. wet, which is a start- thank you!!!
It's crazy that it's such a mystery- the process even won an Oscar!!

[Rumpelstiltskin]

Yeah, wish Disney could make a documentary or two about all the old techniques.

The APT-process is described a little more here:

https://patents.google.com/patent/US4569577

Glen Keane mentioned a conversation with Ub Iwerk's son, where they talked about new technology, but he doesn't og into details:

"The fact is that technology has crossed my path consistently throughout my career, from doing the first computer animation with John Lasseter (Where The Wild Things Are), and even before that on Fox and the Hound. After doing all this charcoal drawing, I wanted that to be up on the screen, I did not want it to be cleaned up and painted traditionally. I was hunting around for a way to do it, and ran in to the Head of Research Don Iwerks (son of Ub Iwerks).

He said “Well, you know I’m thinking about another process of photographic cels, where you can actually photograph the artwork and it’ll be on the cel and you just paint the back of that, and we can have your charcoal drawings up on the screen.”

“Woah! Yeah, let’s do it!” But we ran out of time.

Link: http://www.skwigly.co.uk/glen-keane-interview/

A few more years, and the problems with the new technology would probably have been solved, but then CAPS came and replaced everything:

The Black Cauldron used the traditional ink and paint process where the drawings were xeroxed onto cell and hand painted one by one. I remember that they experimented with a “new” xerox technique (I can’t remember the name) that prooved a failure as the line faded off the cell over time so they returned to the traditional xerox process. But production fell behind and everyone painted cells in the end.

https://web.archive.org/web/20080706132 ... -checking/

And regarding Xerox; there was once a fear that the copying machines could destroy the publishing industry:

A brief interlude into three years of xerography’s history, from 1966 to 1968, reveals just how many “networks of assumptions, habits, practices, and modes of representation” could coalesce in a single technology. In 1966, an estimated fourteen billion photocopies were made in the United States alone. That same year, Marshall McLuhan described Xerox’s rapid ascent as a “reign of terror” that threatened the wholesale destruction of the publishing industry and copyright laws: “Anyone can take any book apart, insert parts of other books and other materials of his own interest, and make his own book in a relatively fast time.”

https://www.luminosoa.org/site/chapters ... load/3197/

[blackcauldron85]

Whoa, lots of (little) information-- thank you! I'm going to leave open the Google patent page for when I have more energy to read all of those words!

So is Xerox not a "photograph"?

[blackcauldron85]

(I was typing as I came across info, so just scroll to the final (long) quote for the jackpot, the stuff we've been looking for!!! I guess we'll never fully understand *how* the APT process worked, but this has a LOT of information!!!)

(My 2nd link from March 22nd isn't showing up on the Interwebs anymore; weird.)

I don't know how much pertinent information is in the hidden portions, but this article, if we could access it (I tried with my old school email, but then they wanted $10, so nah), maybe would provide information, or maybe the unhidden portions are the only pertinent parts:
https://www.coursehero.com/file/p76mphc ... leased-in/

There's this, but again there's not that much info:
https://web.archive.org/web/20120330120 ... rocess.htm

Again, not much:
https://thejamreport.com/2020/05/01/the ... -cauldron/

Barely anything:
https://www.alternateending.com/2009/11 ... belin.html

Not much, but the ATP saved $:
https://www.mcall.com/news/mc-xpm-1984- ... story.html

Motion picture industry experts will be watching box office receipts for Disney's next animated feature, "The Black Cauldron," set for release next year. A new process called the Animation Photo Transfer process has shaved about $500,000 from the budget, according to a studio publicist.

https://books.google.com/books?id=ALmJC ... 22&f=false
[Film Cartoons: A Guide to 20th Century American Animated Features and Shorts
By Douglas L. McCall]

The first film to utilize Disney's revolutionary Animation Photo Transfer process, which transfers drawings to cells with greater speed and resolution than the usual Xeroxing method.

OMG ding ding ding ding ding ding!!!! Jackpot!!!
https://archive.org/details/DisneyNewsM ... q=transfer
Disney News Magazine, Volume 19, Issue 4, Fall 1984 (Publication Date: 1984-09)
p. 4-5, APT: Animation's New Future (by Jim Fanning)

Disneyland Park guests who visit the recently opened World Premiere Circle-Vision attraction, presented by PSA, are treated to a memorable eight-minute pre-show film entitled "All Because Man Wanted to Fly." Few are aware that the cartoon--a combination of live action and animation--showcases Disney's latest improvement in the art of animation.
A new system, conceived and developed by Disney Studio's Still Department Manager Dave Spencer, transfers animation drawings to clear sheets of celluloid (called "cels") by means of a photographic process. The innovative process is labeled "APT," or Animation Photo Transfer.
"All Because Man Wanted to Fly" was the first cartoon to be produced entirely with the APT procedure. The process was initially tested in the graveyard sequence in "Mickey's Christmas Carol" (1983) and will be used for scenes throughout the forthcoming feature, "The Black Cauldron," scheduled for release in 1985. Disney's next animated feature, "Basil of Baker Street," will be produced entirely with the APT system.
Inspired by the leadership of Walt Disney, the company he created has developed many of the basic tools and principles used throughout the animation industry. "Disney is still an innovator," says Dave Spencer," still trying to do something new and better." Disney himself was instrumental in the development of many of the steps which eventually led to the creation of the APT process.
...
[history of animation, cels, inking]
...After World War II, changing economics seemed to call for a faster, cheaper means of transferring the drawings to the cels.
The animatiors were also looking for a way to retain all the vitality of their drawings. For all the skills of the Disney inkers, something was still lost in the translation from drawing to traced cel.
Ub Iwers, master animator of the early Mickey Mouse days and developer of special processes in later years, came up with a system that was something of a compromise between the penciled animation drawing and the carefully inked cel. Iwerks had experimented with the Xerox photocoping system during the 1950s, and by 1959, he was using a modified Xerox machine to transfer animation drawings directly to cels.
The animators were pleased with the way this new system preserved the spontaneity of their drawings, but perhaps more importantly, the Xerox system cut costs...
The Xerox system made its debut with a 1960 short, "Goliath II," but the real testing ground was the feature-length "101 Dalmations" [sic] (1961). The careful, colored tracing of the inkers was replaced by a heavy black line. The new look (actually a throwback to the unrefined inking of the 1920s) was integrated by production designer Ken Anderson in to the film's backgrounds so the characters would not clash with their surroundings.
The box office success of "101 Dalmations" [sic] proved Disney's style of full character animation could still thrive with a less expensive approach. Audiences, however, missed the elegant look of the inked cartoons, and Walt Disney considered "Dalmations" [sic] to be one of his minor successes simply because he didn't like the film's ovrall look.
The Xerox "look" comes from the tiny ridges of electromagnetically charged powder that make up the Xerox line. These ridges easily crumble, making the cels untidy and hard to handle. The powder flakes must be continuously cleaned from the cel or they create dark spots in the finished film. The ridges of powder also cast shadows, giving the line a fuzzy, unfocused appearance.
Disney dveloped a soft grey Xerox line in the mid-'70s which restored some of the delicacy of the inked films to "The Rescuers" (1977).
The Xerox system had long since been adopted as the industry standard in spite of any drawbacks. These drawbacks led Dave Spencer, for one, to consider an alternative. "I'd been thinking about the APT concept off and on for about five years," he relates, "knowing the problems that exist with the Xerox process."
The APT process involved photographing the drawings onto a special lithographic film. It is then exposed to a material specially adapted from a substance currently in use in the graphics industry for color proofing. Unlike the Xerox line, the APT line cannot crumble or be chipped.
The APT line casts no shadow--resulting in the sharper on-screen image. "All Because Man Wanted to Fly" features new, APT-processed animation or Orville the albatross and footage culled from his debut in "The Rescuers." The difference in clarity of line between the Xerox and APT scenes is obvious.
Referring to "The Black Cauldron," Dave Spencer observes that "people looking at dailies are beginning to say they can see the difference. The animators love it because we're giving them a facsimile of the line they draw. When they tail off or broaden a line, they do it for a reason. Xerox, to some extent, destroys that simply because the Xerox line is supplied electrostatically and that's not as accurate as photographing the line."
Another plus: APT provides a wider range of available colors than the Xerox process. The possibility exists for APT lines of different color to appear on the same cel, but presently only two colors can be achieved by coating each side of the cel with a different colored dye.
Flexibility of size is another major advantage of the APT process. "The Black Cauldron" is the first Disney feature to be produced in a widescreen format since the '50s. As Spencer observes, if the Xerox system were used with widescreen animation, "they'd have to make at least six shots, maybe eight, to produce that one cel and try to hold it all in registration, and it just doesn't work." With APT there is no size limitation for a one-shot cel.
The full, carefully crafted cartooning which spells Disney animation grows more expensive with each new picture. "We've got to do something to turn that around," Spencer says. As Xerox was in the 1960s, the development of APT is a major step in limiting costs: the process is expected to save some $500,000 on "Cauldron." DIsney Vice President-animation administration and production Ed Hansen says he's very confident that within a short period of time everybody in the industry will be using APT simply because it's a moneysaver.
The new process is less expensive because it's at least twice as fast as Xerox. The photographing and processing steps are automated.
"We have only four people involved in the APT system," continues Spencer, "and they're doing about twice the work Xerox is doing with 12 people."
The efficiency of APT goes beyond that of speeding up the drawing-to-cel process. The replacement of a Xerox cel accidentally ruined during handling, painting or photographing is a complex, time-costly procedure, necessitating the location of the original animation drawing. Dave Spencer points out that with APT "we have a negative backing up every piece of paper, they're all filed by sequence, scene and drawing number; so if something happens in the Paint Department or wherever, we just make them another cel."
With a new staff of talented young animators, Disney has been interested in increasing its animation output, and APT will help achieve that goal. More starring vehicles are being planned for Mickey Mouse, including a featurette with Mickey starring as Christoper Columbus, and the APT process will clearly make it easier to bring Disney's biggest star to the screen.
Concludes Dave Spencer, summing up the APT process, "We're at the point now where it can only improve."

[Rumpelstiltskin]

Finally something new info, and a chance to get some wiser regarding the process. Where did you find the link?

It sounds like they had big plans for APT, but something must have happened. As mentioned there were rumors about fading images, but it also took a long time to improve Xerox. I can't imagine the problems were that severe. Whatever it was, it feels as if Disney want pull a Glago's Guest on the technique.

If only they had invented it in the late 60s or early 70s, then perhaps it could have done what was predicted; replace the Xerox process in the whole industry, at lest till digital inking took over. Even if Winnie the Pooh and Tigger Too should have been done the old Xerox way, so its animation style still looked like the featurettes that came before.

Also wish they would release the animation from "All Because Man Wanted to Fly."

(The fact that it was first tested in Mickey's Christmas Carol is interesting. That adds another trivia on the list. The last "real" Mickey Mouse cartoon was The Simple Things. After that no more theatrically shorts were made (perhaps some animation for TV was done later) before Mickey's Christmas Carol. It was the first Mickey cartoon (a featurette) that used the Xerox process, and the first that used the APT-process. Then there was The Prince and the Pauper, the last time Disney used animation cels, and the only featurette that combined cels with CGI. Runaway Brain was the only Mickey done with CAPS, and Get a Horse! the only Mickey short where some was done as 3D computer animation.)

[blackcauldron85]

Where did you find the link?

I *think* Google, but maybe Gale database via my library's website...I was searching all over!!

Also wish they would release the animation from "All Because Man Wanted to Fly."

I'm at the doctor's office so I can't play it now, but maybe this is it:
https://youtu.be/dsS3_jeXI6w

(The fact that it was first tested in Mickey's Christmas Carol is interesting...It was the first Mickey cartoon (a featurette) that used the Xerox process, and the first that used the APT-process.

I think that's neat, too, and I want to rewatch it knowing that APT was used on it...I think I'll have a new appreciation for it!

[Rumpelstiltskin]

It can't be Google, because when I use some of the content to search for it, nothing shows up.

Yes, that seems to be the video, even if it seems to be copied from an old VHS or something.

(Also, since this is also about the Xerox process, does anyone have any details about line overlay? In One Hundred and One Dalmatians the colors seems to spread outside the lines.)

[blackcauldron85]

It can't be Google, because when I use some of the content to search for it, nothing shows up.

Okay, looking at my Internet History right before I found the article:
Google: "animation photo transfer process" "disney" "cauldron"
webcache.googleusercontent.co: "DISNEY NEWS Fall 84 EPCOT Alice Ride NEW ANIMATION | #1...
Google: "jim fanning" "animation photo"
http://www.dix-project.net: DIX Project - Resources (x2)
http://www.dix-project.net: DIX Project - A Disney resource guide
http://www.dix-project.net: DIX Project - Resources
http://www.dix-project.net: Epic Animation in "The Black Cauldron"; Starlog Magazine, 198...
http://www.dix-project.net: DIX Project - Resources (x3)
Google: "disney news" "fall 1984"
archive.org: "Disney News Magazine Fall 1984: Walt Disney Productions: Fr... (x2) (https://www.dix-project.net/item/3096/s ... k-cauldron is the exact link)
archive.org: Disney News Magazine 1971-1991: Matt Fondacaro: Free Do...
archive.org: DisneyNewsMagazine directory listing
(Those last 2 I just had up to save the links; it was that Fall 1984 article that the info came from...)

(Also, since this is also about the Xerox process, does anyone have any details about line overlay? In One Hundred and One Dalmatians the colors seems to spread outside the lines.)

While researching Oliver & Co., I posted this about Xerox overlays, so it's not much since I wasn't going in-depth, but that was posted here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=26038&p=740645#p740645
I'll try and do some research on it & of course I'll post it here if/when I do!!!

[Rumpelstiltskin]

For some reason my Google searches never ever show me Internet Archive articles as a result.

I assumed line overlay was done like this; draw the whole background scene in black lines. Make a transparent Xerox copy of it in the same size. Add colors to the original artwork, and then lay the Xerox copy over it, and finally the animation cels and foregrounds.

But the way the colors are often flowing over the lines, especially in One Hundred and One Dalmatians, make it look more like they were just tracing the lines by hand.

By the way, I read an article some time ago how they made snow white, like the scene with the well in the beginning where she meet the prince for the first time. Some of the foreground objects, like the well itself I think, was made by doing the artwork on paper first and then cut them out with a scissor and laying them on top of the cels.

[blackcauldron85]

Um, I've been up for 3 hours doing research, and I hit pay dirt. I have things saved on a Notepad document right now. Hopefully at lunchtime I can post some stuff, but I need to get ready for work. I won't be able to post everything, since a lot of it comes from one book that I bought, but I will post what I can from the other sites/books, and try to summarize what this books says**. So please be patient, I'll have more later!

"Ink & Paint: The Women of Walt Disney's Animation" by Mindy Johnson. See if your library has it, or see if you can get a cheap copy used. It answers SO MUCH! Like I said, I'll try summarizing so we don't get in trouble for posting so much copyrighted content!!!

[blackcauldron85]

Okay, I'll post the stuff that I don't need to paraphrase, then if I don't have time during this lunch break, after work I will post the rest!!!

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=15491

So, in that thread that I just found this morning ^, you asked what in Sleeping Beauty used Xerox:
(via https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Hundr ... Dalmatians):
https://archive.org/details/hollywoodca ... up?q=thorn
Hollywood cartoons : American animation in its golden age
by Barrier, J. Michael
Publication date 1999
Publisher New York : Oxford University Press
p. 566:

Disney first used the Xerox process for a thorn forest in Sleeping Beauty; even then, a couple of small television-commercial studios had already made some use of it, as had UPA on its Boing Boing Show.

Ink & Paint: The Women of Walt Disney's Animation by Mindy Johnson, (c) 2017 Disney Enterprises, Inc., Disney Editions, Los Angeles
(There is a whole chapter called "Xerographic Beginnings.")
p. 273:

Once training was started, Walt decided to test the applicable usage of this technology with the current film in production. "It was right near the end of Sleeping Beauty where the scenes were shot," [Don] Iwerks remembered. [Eleanor] Dahlin recalled the scene. "It was the shot of the whole procession of the people across the bridge [walking] up into the castle that was xeroxed. It was a long shot, so it wasn't close enough so you could see the difference."
Iwerks concurred. "A large crowd scene, which had a lot of heads and people--that's an ideal one to work on because of the time it takes to draw every one of those complex cels."

Disney Animation: The Illusion of Life by Frank Thomas & Ollie Johnston, Popular Edition, Abbeville Press, New York, (c) 1984 by Walt Disney Productions.
Sorry, the picture is sideways...I just took it from the book... (p. 106)
https://i.ibb.co/4VR2Nzv/20200729-060339.jpg

Painter: Walt Peregoy - 101 Dalmatians
1. For the painting technique for 101 Dalmatians: flat areas of color to match the handling of the flat values on the characters, with all the details and drawing left in line on a covering cel. (On the left, the painting without the lines; on the right, the completed background.) This idea, pioneered by Ken Anderson, made a perfect wedding of characters and background.

p. 180

The model of Cruella's car was painted with black lines that made it look like a drawing when reproduced on the photostats. The image was cut out and pasted on a cel, then copied by the Xerox process like any drawing. Once it was painted in flat colors, as shown here, it looked just like the other cels in the picture.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_animation

A cel overlay is a cel with inanimate objects used to give the impression of a foreground when laid on top of a ready frame.[27] This creates the illusion of depth, but not as much as a multiplane camera would. A special version of cel overlay is called line overlay, made to complete the background instead of making the foreground, and was invented to deal with the sketchy appearance of xeroxed drawings. The background was first painted as shapes and figures in flat colors, containing rather few details. Next, a cel with detailed black lines was laid directly over it, each line is drawn to add more information to the underlying shape or figure and give the background the complexity it needed. In this way, the visual style of the background will match that of the xeroxed character cels. As the xerographic process evolved, line overlay was left behind.

The Art of Movies
By Nicolae Sfetcu

Cel Overlay
A cel with inanimate objects made to make the impression of a foreground when laid on top of a ready frame. This creates the illusion of depth, but not as much as a multiplane camera would. A special version of cel overlay is called line overlay, made to complete the background instead of making the foreground, and was invented to deal with the sketchy appearance of xeroxed drawings. Next a cel with detailed black lines was laid directly over it, each line drawn to add more information to the underlaying shape or figure, giving the background the complexity it needed. In this way the visual style of the background will match the visual style of the xeroxed parts of the animation. As the xerographic process evolved, line overlay was left behind.

Animation Art Glossary of Terms - Creative Moments Animation Art
https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/ ... clnk&gl=us

LINE OVERLAY: Starting with Walt Disney's film, One Hundred and One Dalmatians, a new painting technique for creating backgrounds was conceived by Disney artist, Ken Anderson. General shapes and shading painted in flat colors on the production background were defined by a detailed line drawing done directly onto an overlay celluloid. This overlay finished creating the final film image used as the background.

https://www.dix-project.net/item/4306/a ... techniques
Animated Film Techniques
Part 5 - In-Betweening
Author: Carl Fallberg, American Cinematographer, #39.11, 1958-12,pp. 694-695,714,716,EN

...Whenever there is some non-moving prop in the foreground – a tree, rock, stump, bush, etc. – behind which the action of the scene works at some time, it is placed on the top cel level and termed an “overlay.” The prop, portion of the terrain, or whatever it might be, is painted in the same fashion tones and colors as the background, either in cels directly on the cel, or on regular water-color paper – then cut out and cemented onto the cel. The purpose of an overlay is to increase the pictorial effectiveness of a scene by providing it with a feeling of depth and third dimension. It can also help “frame” a scene to enhance pictorial composition, This technique was lavishly used in such Disney productions as “Snow White and The Seven Dwarfs” and “Bambi,” and in the more recent full-length animation feature “Sleeping Beauty,” to be released by Walt Disney early in 1959.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0055254/trivia

Art director Ken Anderson came up with the idea of overlaying cels of line drawings over the painted backgrounds to match the Xeroxed cels of the characters. For the next twenty years, all Disney features - with the exception of The Jungle Book (1967) and the animated segments in Mary Poppins (1964) and Bedknobs and Broomsticks (1971) - would use this technique for their backgrounds. With The Fox and the Hound (1981), Disney returned to fully painted backgrounds, with a brief reprise of the cel overlay for Oliver & Company (1988).

http://www.nappaland.com/FamilyFans/Fea ... regoy.html
(Google Cached: https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/ ... clnk&gl=us)

Peregoy’s distinctive use of color is accentuated by the simplicity of line. “I would approach color freely – painting behind the Xerox overlay. This gives the work a free, almost watercolor quality.” A clear example of this can be found in the beginning sequences of the film at the park. “It’s all staging,” notes Peregoy. “The color styling serves the sequence and the animation. None of my backgrounds take away from the beauty of the animation.”

**specific examples (with pics)** (Some of these may not be quite what you were asking about or what we're discussing, but I found them @ 4am, so cut me some slack! )

Okay, so there is a LOT of info below, and again, some may not be what you are looking for. But it appears that line overlay was not only used on 101 Dalmatians, as there are a couple Robin Hood mentions, a Pooh (but I think it said it's from an educational filmstrip), and The Great Mouse Detective. So, bottom line, it seems that 101D + O&Co weren't the only films made using line overlay.



https://andreasdeja.blogspot.com/2016/0 ... n-art.html (w/ comments)
https://andreasdeja.blogspot.com/2016_0 ... chive.html (archived w/o comments)
(101 D)

I am not sure if this artwork is actual production, but the xerox line overlay sure doesn't register with the color painting. Beautiful color choices though.

This is actually really cool, because the overlay doesn't seem to be lined up, but it kind of gives the idea of what the line overlay was used for...like, we can see the outlines...

On the 'Pongo down the stairs to Perdita' set-up, no attempt has been made to register the three elements: character cel, BG overlay cel and colour BG, which had presumably had their pegholes trimmed off earlier. This appears to be some kind of test set-up, or perhaps an illustration of layout for an article - the background xerox is from the drawing used for the production BG, but the colour painting is not the one used in the film (the towel hanging on cupboard door is a different colour, for one thing). In this assemblage the colour BG is not only well out of registration but also rotated at a slight angle - the registration is closest bottom left and furthest top right. My guess is that the original taped set-up had come apart and someone just squared up the sheets as closely as possible, when in the original set-up (with the pegholes registered) the sheets' edges were irregular.

Okay, I just commented on that post...but didn't see the "Notify Me" button until I was hitting "Send." Maybe Mr. Deja receives email alerts of new comments, or maybe someone who already posted will get an email alert...? It was worth a shot...

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/ ... clnk&gl=us (scroll down to 101 D)

https://www.untitledartgallery.com/post ... tians-1961

https://auction.howardlowery.com/Biddin ... d1=2601517
(Google Cached: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/s ... clnk&gl=us)

This animation cel overlay sheet of detail for a jungle background was produced at the Disney Studio during the production of the animated feature based on the stories by Rudyard Kipling. Beginning with the making of 101 Dalmatians (1961), the backgrounds in Disney's animated features were created by marrying a somewhat indistinct watercolor painting to a matching cel overlay that provided detail and form to the areas of color in the painting. The detail in the overlay was achieved by transferring a drawing on paper to the cel sheet by the Xerox process then at use at the Studio. This is one of a number of such overlays for the scene that were made when the film was in production.

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/ ... clnk&gl=us

The Great Mouse Detective (1986)
original production animation cel paintings and background line overlay gouache on three (3) animation cel sheets, Xerography on one cel sheet; painted cel image size: 8.25" x 8.75"; 10.5" x 14" image size including background line overlay cel print...Each of the three (3) painted cels (one of Basil and two of flames) was laminated in the standard practice of that time. The fourth cel sheet is a Xerographic print of the line overlay that was photographed over the background painting in the scene to enhance definition.

(Pooh) https://auction.howardlowery.com/Biddin ... d1=2874805

(Robin Hood) http://disneyproductioncels.com/1973-ra ... round.html
(Google Cached: https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/ ... clnk&gl=us)

After "Sleeping Beauty, " 1959, there was no longer hand inking of the lines on the tops of the cel; rather this was done by a process called xerography. Such is the case for not only this full figure cel of Robin Hood, but also for this background. The background is an original hand painted watercolor background, but in addition there is the original production line overlay cel; which contains all the black outlines for the background's various features and objects.

The line overlay cel was created through xerography and allows for much more detail for example; the trees and grass now contain black line highlights for branches, leaves, and both clumps and individual blades of grass. The tent and Prince John's viewing platform are also highlighted with black lines to showcase fabrics as well as the wood planks making up the stage's floor. The resulting work of art is a very large and wonderful animation set-up showcasing the great animators attention to every detail.

https://comics.ha.com/itm/animation-art ... 16-62259.s
(Google Cached: https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/ ... clnk&gl=us)

...this is a great hand-painted production background of the basement where the dog bed is kept. Artwork is on 3-peghole background board measuring 16" x 12.5"; the painted area is 11.5" x 9". The Key Line test cel overlay is placed over the painted background. Two of the puppies are cut to the image and mounted to the line test cel. A clear overlay cel is placed over this.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Walt-Disney-s- ... 1107863057
(Google Cached: https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/ ... clnk&gl=us)
Walt Disney’s 101 Dalmatians Buena Vista Re-Release 4-color overlay Proof Sheet

...This is an unusual 1980s or 90s Walt Disney’s 101 Dalmatians Buena Vista re-release 4-color overlay proof sheet, complete. The color overlay measures approx. 10 x 14 inches and comes with four acetate sheets on top of a white back drop. The top overlay is printed in black, the 2nd is blue, 3rd is red and 4th s yellow. This may be the color proof to posters or advertisements published when Buena Vista re-released the movie, though we have yet to be able to find this exact image anywhere so any info or help on this piece would be greatly appreciated.

https://profilesinhistory.com/flipbooks ... ge207.html
(Google Cached: https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/ ... clnk&gl=us)

...753. Original prOductiOn cels and prOductiOn backgrOund with cel Overlay featuring “cruella de vil” frOm 101 daLmatianS. (Walt Disney, 1961) Untrimmed cels and production background measure 12 x 16 in.The image size is 7 in. In very fine condition. $5,500 - $6,500...

(enlarged pic: https://profilesinhistory.com/flipbooks ... html#p=207)

https://vegalleries.com/art/walt-disney ... tians18075
(Google Cached: https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/ ... clnk&gl=us)

This hand-painted background features an exterior environment of a petrol (gas) station on a snowy street, and was created at the studio and used during the production of the film. The background also has its xerographic line work cel overlay. 101 Dalmatians was the first feature length film to utilize xerox line work on the cels rather than hand-inked lines, and the xeroxed line overlays for the backgrounds really captured the style of the film developed by head background artist, Walt Peregoy.

https://vegalleries.com/art/walt-disney ... atians2434

https://www.untitledartgallery.com/101- ... box=i015t1

http://www.artnet.com/artists/walt-disn ... p_CmENo6Q2

(Robin Hood)

Original hand-painted production cel, on the original master hand-painted production background with original line overlay cel.

https://www.peterharringtongallery.co.u ... 06132.html
(Google Cached: https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/ ... clnk&gl=us)

A lot more on Xerox & APT to come!!!!

[Farerb]

Thank you for all that great information, blackcauldron85, you did a really good research.

I actually ordered "Disney Animation: The Illusion of Life" since I was informed that it's one of the most recommended Disney books, but I see there's a lot of good information in other books as well.

[blackcauldron85]

^ You are so welcome! Again, I can't recommend Ink & Paint: The Women of Walt Disney's Animation by Mindy Johnson, (c) 2017 Disney Enterprises, Inc., Disney Editions, Los Angeles enough- it is an amazing companion piece to Frank & Ollie's book! (Ink & Paint has literally been sitting on my bookshelf since I bought it- I just never got around to reading it- and it's one of the best books ever, but Frank & Ollie's book is amazing as well!)

Paraphrase time! I just really urge you to seek out this book, because it's chock full of info, and I can only post so much!
Ink & Paint: The Women of Walt Disney's Animation by Mindy Johnson, (c) 2017 Disney Enterprises, Inc., Disney Editions, Los Angeles
p. 276- Xerox only could produce one color, so Inkers would ink items as needed.

p. 288- (Goliath II)- cleanup drawings needed to be pretty much perfect for the Xerox process.

p. 290-
https://i.ibb.co/vqg53SQ/20200729-064856.jpg

Complete image elements from the Xerox process...(top right) Xerox background overlay...

p.291 (101 Dalmatians)-

...xeroxed cel overlays against painted backgrounds

p. 315 (The Rescuers)- grey Xerox line

p. 317 (Pete's Dragon)- Elliot was part Xerox, part hand-inked.

p. 326 (The Fox and the Hound)- brown Xerox

Okay, I'm working on paraphrasing the APT stuff (so much good stuff, please just seek out the book. I'm worried I already posted too much above!), but I'll do my best to put the best info here...

*edit 12:48pm*
I already had the thread open this morning and didn't refresh as I researched, so I am just now seeing that you wrote back!!!

I assumed line overlay was done like this; draw the whole background scene in black lines. Make a transparent Xerox copy of it in the same size. Add colors to the original artwork, and then lay the Xerox copy over it, and finally the animation cels and foregrounds.

Hopefully some of the info I just posted will shed some insight! I'll need to read it more to try and comprehend it more, you know? My head is spinning.

[blackcauldron85]

Now comes the APT stuff.

p. 331 (The Black Cauldron)-https://i.ibb.co/9Vnj5MC/20200729-072013.jpg

APT test cel of Gurgi...

p. 331

You have a sheet negative and you put the drawing up and you expose it like a giant sheet negative to the drawing, which creates a negative image and then a positive piece of clear sheeting coated with UV sensitive ink, and expose light through the negative to the sheeting where the ink cures. Wash away the residue and you would end up with a nice, thin line just exactly like ink.

APT was used in small bits of this scene of Mickey's Christmas Carol: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0085936/me ... 2347021569

p. 332-333
The APT and paint didn't get along well.

It needed a surfactant!...So we put dish detergent in the paint...

The lines faded. They tried using a different kind of cel, but they were hard to deal with. Joe Hale created a memo saying that certain characters will be created with APT, some with Xerox. The paint consistency was difficult to deal with (weather basically affected it).

This is the most TBC info out of ANY book that I've read. I can't believe I've been sitting on this the whole time. If you're interested in the production of that film, absolutely seek out the book!!!

(The Great Mouse Detective) p. 336- (Big Ben scene)

...computer printouts were transferred via Xerox onto large-format...cels, which were then hand-painted.

(The Little Mermaid) p. 351-

Separate green and white Xeroxed overlays set slightly askew created a realistic water effect...

[Rumpelstiltskin]

Thanks for the tips and all of the efforts. This is just a reminder that the name "information age" is strongly exaggerated. There are still tons of info that exist in books and magazines that's not available on the net. Or very hard to find, or behind paywalls. I have experienced it myself; I'm looking for information for who knows how long, and it either takes a lot of work, or it doesn't lead to anywhere. If I'm adding something to a Wikipedia article, it sometimes may just be a sentence or two, but it have taken a lot of time to find a reliable source.
In this case, there are probably still plenty of former Disney employees who knows details regarding the answers, but getting in contact with them (assuming they want to reply), is another question.
(Sounds like even Andreas Deja wants some answers (even if he is not always that good at replying himself). Considering the animation cels are laid directly on top of the backgrounds, the characters and background should be equally sharp or unclear. I guess making a blurry background could be possible if they were taken a color photo of the art without the correct focus, and then lay an the cels over a photo instead, but it sounds like a lot of work.)

Maybe Glen Keane knows if the APT-process was what he and Iwerks Jr. had on their mind during The Fox and the Hound production.

If I'm going to read any of the books, the only option is to buy it. My library definitely doesn't have it (a modest sized city in a country with a non-English language).
And speaking of books about a specific topic (animation, ghost stories, paleontology, fantasy and so on) , these are often extremely expensive, even as kindle. We're talking about academic books here. Don't know why it's so.

Don't worry about copyrighted content. I think you have to post pretty much before it becomes a problem (just look at Google books).

At last it's confirmed that line overlay was done with a Xerox copy of the original artwork, despite a bad match between the lines and colors in some of the scenes in Dalmatians. I wonder if it could be done in a more sophisticated manner today, creating a ligne claire look: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ligne_claire

So, Robin Hood used watercolor backgrounds? That contradicts the claim that Lilo & Stitch was the first Disney animated film since Dumbo to use watercolor painted backgrounds. Just like line overlay was used on more features than some articles claim. (And imdb still claim that Rescuers Down Under used the Xerox process as well, despite being made with CAPS.)