BATB Original version versus tarnished version

[Marky_198]

We all know about the changes and transformations this movie went through. From the changed colors, to the transformed backgrounds, the removed backgrounds in the castle, scenes that are completely re-animated, etc.

But today I noticed another weird thing.
Someone told me that many scenes are actually "mirrored/flipped".

Mrs. Potts is on the left in the left in the first clip, and on the right in the second clip?

Now I look at it, it seems that the whole last part of the song is re-animated too?

Belle and the Beast actually completely disappeared from the last segment of the song?

What is this?

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[Marky_198]

Let's post all the things that are actually changed in the film in this thread, so we can wrap our heads around it.

Because now everything is spread out over a 100 topics.

This is one of the other re-animated scenes:

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[Marky_198]

General color example:

<a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><img src="http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n71/ ... /comp4.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

[2099net]

Mrs. Potts is on the left in the left in the first clip, and on the right in the second clip?

The "mirrored" short is obviously a reverse angle - so the location of the characters would be wrong otherwise. (see below for the reason for introducing a reverse angle)

Now I look at it, it seems that the whole last part of the song is re-animated too?

Belle and the Beast actually completely disappeared from the last segment of the song?

It appears they are fixing a mistake. In the original, the enchanted staff would be closing the door and shutting themselves in with the Beast and Belle - Not exactly the fitting with the song or sequence is it?

The new version makes more sense narratively - and this the reverse angle short earlier is required.

What is this?

I don't know Marky, what is this? The best you can do? Does having the staff close the door without being locked in a room playing gooseberry ruin the film for you? Or does it indeed... make it better and enhance the sequence and story?

[Marky_198]

[Marky_198]

The "mirrored" short is obviously a reverse angle - so the location of the characters would be wrong otherwise. (see below for the reason for introducing a reverse angle)

Oh yes, because they changed one thing, they have to change others too, that's how it works.
So they might as well change the position of every character in the film, why not?

Now I look at it, it seems that the whole last part of the song is re-animated too?

Belle and the Beast actually completely disappeared from the last segment of the song?

It appears they are fixing a mistake. In the original, the enchanted staff would be closing the door and shutting themselves in with the Beast and Belle - Not exactly the fitting with the song or sequence is it?

Actually, there was no closing door sequence in the original version. As you clearly can see if you take a proper look at the clips.
They just came up with this scene for the new version.
Which is a shame, because the final image of Belle and the Beast sitting in front of the fire in the background, while you hear the last instrumental notes of the song was one of the most beautiful scenes in the film.

They are just gone now. And it's replaced by an empty hallway.

What is this?

I don't know Marky, what is this? The best you can do? Does having the staff close the door without being locked in a room playing gooseberry ruin the film for you? Or does it indeed... make it better and enhance the sequence and story?

Take a look at the clips again and we can talk further.

By the way, it also seems they changed many backgrounds that have nothing to do with the story, for example replacing a clean door for another clean door? Weird.

[rexcrk]

It'd be nice if, for the Blu-ray, they included the original un-edited version.

[Nandor]

Now I look at it, it seems that the whole last part of the song is re-animated too?

I know I'm talking to a brick wall, but my own walls have started ignoring me.
Yes, it's been changed. As Netty mentioned, it's a reverse angle, which explains why Mrs. Potts is on the other side and why Belle and Beast aren't there. For someone who professes to watch these movies closely, you don't seem to pay much attention...
This is part of the new scene, as you very well know. Does not count as a seperate piece of 'tampered' animation.

I won't even respond to the Cogsworth-clip, as you've been using that one almost as much as the Merryweather-screen from SB PE.

Does not count. You know why they were changed and the original backgrounds are still available.

[Marky_198]

The song "something there" has nothing to to with the new scene.
The scene closes/fades out and they could have done anything after that.

Removing Belle/Beast from this scene and replace it by an empty hallway and mirror/flip the characters is completely unnecessary.
What could possibly be an improvement if you first see the pair they are singing about in the background (which works perfectly), and change that to an empty hallway?

And about the backgrounds, they also changed backgrounds that had NOTHING to do with the story. So, just for the sake of it.

[2099net]

Oh yes, because they changed one thing, they have to change others too, that's how it works.

No, they don't have to change anything. But the film (not the disc) is called "Special Edition". They're not pretending otherwise. Every single film (not disc) with Special Edition in the title has been re-edited or altered in some form or other.

You know why the backgrounds are changed on the bath-shot above. It's so they could work-in the Human Again song. To complain about that in a film release where the main selling point is the introduction of said song is, to put it bluntly, pointless.

I sympathise with the fact the DVD claims to include the original film version as well as the Special Edition, but that's really not the issue. All the complaints you have are about an version of the film which openly acknowledges and admits changes have been made for a number of reasons (to insert the new sequence, fixing detail for IMAX sized viewing and as the Cosworth and Door Closing sequence show presumably for storytelling reasons too).

However, the non-Door closing sequence IS on the DVD if you select the original version.

Why was the proper Theatrical version left off the DVD - as far as I can see either because

[a] DVD technology was still in its relative infancy and Disney decided to use a crude branching technique after earlier releases with "true" seamless branching (such as Artisan's T2) caused problems on some players

The fact that Disney was using the angle function for the WiP version probably meant "true" seamless branching was not-available (I would imagine including multiple angles and branching info in a single stream may be taxing either players or the DVD spec itself)

[c] Or perhaps Disney just couldn't be bothered to create two different masters (but the fact the damaged and undamaged backgrounds exist on the Platinum DVD with the same colours indicates otherwise to a certain extent).

Much as you seem to hate Blu-ray Marky, the fact is nobody here knows how the Diamond edition of BatB will be presented on Blu-ray. Technology wise Blu-ray is more than capable of supporting proper branching and the WiP as either a picture-in-picture feature or a totally separate encoding. It has the bandwidth, it has the disc space and it has advanced audio and visual codecs. A two disc Blu-ray release could have 100GB available for three versions of the movie (Theatrical, Special and WiP) and hours of HD supplements. Considering Snow White took up roughly 20GB (source) that leaves plenty of room for three distinct encodes and still approx 3-4 hours worth of hi-quality HD supplements on a 2 BD50 release even in the worst case scenario when it comes to disc usage - but I doubt the WiP would require as much as 20GB freeing up more space for supplements even then).

Granted, I personally think its unlikely we will see the "True" Theatrical version - its certainly easier for Disney not to, but we could see it.

Note that I don't include the colours as being an issue with the Theatrical though - because as you image above shows with the non-destroyed background to the bathroom sequence and the fact the door closing sequence and non-door closing sequence is on the DVD - with colours that match the rest of the film. I personally doubt Disney would have paid for those sequences to be re-coloured simply to allow "two" versions to be put on the DVD release - they could have easily just released the Special Edition, sold just as many, and saved money if that was the case.

Until then, you'll just have to accept the DVD you own has the Special Edition included, as well as a non-definitive "reconstruction" of the Theatrical release. The DVD is a pretty good "reconstruction", although things are different (such as the rose sparkles). Again, I'm ignoring the colour.

[2099net]

The song "something there" has nothing to to with the new scene.
The scene closes/fades out and they could have done anything after that.

Removing Belle/Beast from this scene and replace it by an empty hallway and mirror/flip the characters is completely unnecessary.
What could possibly be an improvement if you first see the pair they are singing about in the background (which works perfectly), and change that to an empty hallway?

Because it's a more romantic ending? So the enhanted staff don't come off as creepy peeping toms at the end of the sequence? You may not like it, but to me it makes more sense and gives the whole sequence "closure".

[CampbellzSoup]

After we were so impressed with your last successful Snow White comparison at least you have your Beauty and the Beast crutch to rely on.

[Marky_198]

After we were so impressed with your last successful Snow White comparison at least you have your Beauty and the Beast crutch to rely on.

And do you also have anything to say about the content?

What is the maximum they can change in a film before you start to care?

Because it seems like they can change every scene, character and background completely and people still think it's the same film?
Staggering.

[2099net]

Because it seems like they can change every scene, character and background completely and people still think it's the same film?
Staggering.

No. People think its THE SPECIAL EDITION!

[Marky_198]

Because it's a more romantic ending? So the enhanted staff don't come off as creepy peeping toms at the end of the sequence? You may not like it, but to me it makes more sense and gives the whole sequence "closure".

You do know this answer doesn't make ANY sense don't you?

The original ending is 10 times more romantic.
It's one of my favourite images in the film.

A pair sitting in front of the fire versus an empty hallway.

Besides, it's not about what we "like".
A film is a compilation of scenes and with completely different scenes it's a completely different film.

But you seem to have the urge to talk everything right, even if you make a mistake: "It appears they are fixing a mistake. In the original, the enchanted staff would be closing the door and shutting themselves in with the Beast and Belle - Not exactly the fitting with the song or sequence is it?" While there actually wasn't a closing door scene in the original version.
And then you find out that you were wrong, you suddenly say "Oh well, I just like the new version anyway, it's much more romantic".
You see what you want to see, but you can't deny facts.

[Marky_198]

No. People think its THE SPECIAL EDITION!

No. People think it's the film they know.

[2099net]

Because it's a more romantic ending? So the enhanted staff don't come off as creepy peeping toms at the end of the sequence? You may not like it, but to me it makes more sense and gives the whole sequence "closure".

You do know this answer doesn't make ANY sense don't you?

The original ending is 10 times more romantic.
It's one of my favourite images in the film.

A pair sitting in front of the fire versus an empty hallway.

Its not versus an empty hallway. That's such a literal, unimaginative reading of the scene I find it franky beneath you (being as you profess to appreciate the "beauty" of the Disney films so much). It's about the Beast's and Belle's fledgling romance being played out in public - almost as gossip in fact - verses the fact the staff are backing away and leaving the two main characters some privacy and respect. I know which I prefer and which I find more romantic.

Besides, it's not about what we "like".
A film is a compilation of scenes and with completely different scenes it's a completely different film.

Yes, the clue's in the title: "Special Edition". "Your" original ending to the song is still on the DVD under the "Original" version.

Are you aware of this Marky? From IMDB on Fantasia:

The original 124-minute version of Fantasia has never had a wide theatrical release. The only times the original "Fantasound" version of the film played were in roadshow engagements from November 1940 until January 1941. Walt Disney himself had to personally supervise this release, which only played in 12 venues (only 16 "Fantasound" equipped prints were ever made).

The original roadshow version, apart from its fifteen-minute intermission, runs 124 minutes (just over two hours). Compared to the more familiar versions of Fantasia, it featured:

much lengthier (and always on-camera) interstitials from Deems Taylor, especially for the then-revolutionary "Rite of Spring" sequence.

Footage of the musicians exiting and re-entering the bandstands immediately before and after the intermission. The sequence after the intermission features an impromptu jam session by the on-screen musicians.

No on-screen credits, save one title card which displayed the film's name, the copyright notice, "Color by Technicolor," the MPPDA approval certificate, and the RCA Sound System logo. The production credits were featured in a specially prepared collectible program booklet available for purchase by roadshow performance attendees. Since the first editing of the film after its initial roadshow release, none of this extra material (except part of the intermission used for the 50th Anniversary's end credits sequence) has been seen publicly until the 60th Anniversary release.

Plus of course, Walt wanted to periodically swap out sequences and replace them with new ones. Imagine if he did? How would you ever see a "definitive" Fantasia then?

It's not as if Disney's done anything new. They adjusted the film for a re-release on a new format, and in the process as well as the required adjustments (for detail for IMAX sized projection or for insertion of the new sequence) they redid a few other sequences or effects. It's hardly a hanging offence!

[my chicken is infected]

Oh for the love of God, hasn't this topic already been trampled to death, decapitated, dragged for six miles, and trampled some more?

[ajmrowland]

Well, Marky definitely has the characteristics of a brick wall: same boring responses that make the conversation one-sided by default. What's worse is that the replies of a brick make much more sense than his do.

[SpringHeelJack]

Wait... are you saying they changed "Beauty and the Beast" for the DVD release? Why didn't someone mention this back in 2002?!?!?!