Audio Errors of Restoration..

[Timon/Pumbaa fan]

Well, this is a question hopefully someone like Deathie or Netty could explain.

I was watching my Pinocchio Platinum Blu-Ray, and during the Give A Little Whistle, I noticed right off, after Jiminy's "and if your whistle's weak, yell!" Pinocchio asks, "Jiminy Cricket?" Then Jiminy says "Right". But on the Blu-Ray, it was cut right out. I figured at first, "I don't have surround-sound speakers, maybe this is why." A little disappointed, I put in my DVD, went to that scene, and yet again, it was cut out. I decided to put the DVD onto my laptop and the other television(not HD) and still, that line was cut out, so speakers weren't part of the equation.

I guess I shouldn't loose sleep over something silly as one line from a song, but what happened? Was it an error?

So immediately, two questions popped into my head
1. Have/will there be others audio losses on previous/upcoming releases(other than Aladdin's dirty line of course)
2. Why exactly does this happen? I guess never really thought of this before, but how exactly is audio remastered and cleaned up as opposed to visual. I know there's supposed controversy about Cinderella using different colors or something, but what about audio? I see no reason to edit that line out "artistically" so it must've been an error. Kinda makes me slightly worried that something isn't quite in it's original form(even if it's something like one word).

[2099net]

DVDTalk addresses this (as does Luke's review)

Reader Darryl Pickett says that he's found a minor audio flaw in the otherwise marvelous new disc of Pinocchio:

"Hello Glenn. I just purchased the lovely new version of Pinocchio on DVD. I've seen this film many many times, so imagine my surprise when, while watching it, I caught a missing line, just one word in fact, during the song "Give a Little Whistle". At 00:20:36, just after Jiminy has advised. "if your whistle's weak, yell!" Pinocchio pipes up with a hollered "Jiminy Cricket?" In every other version I've ever seen, Jiminy yells back "RIGHT!" before continuing to sing "take the straight and narrow path." That "Right!" response is gone - mixed out of existence. A quick check on an older version confirmed what I already knew. A very small piece of Jiminy's performance is gone. (For what it's worth, this "right!" never appeared on official soundtrack recordings either. It always caught my ear when I would watch the movie, precisely because I WASN'T used to hearing that little exclamation on record, cassette or CD.) It doesn't wreck an otherwise gorgeous presentation, but it is a weird little omission, and will always bother me when I cue this disc up."

Savant doesn't print this info in any spirit other than to say, "whattaya know?"; and I'm not suggesting that any action needs to be taken because of it. The last time I remember this happening was on the first old MGM DVD of 2001: A Space Odyssey, when a couple of words from the HAL-9000 computer were dropped. In that case, HAL's dialogue was so sparse that many viewers had memorized every syllable, and immediately noticed what was missing.

http://www.dvdtalk.com/dvdsavant/index.html

My Guess is that being as this never seems to have been on any of the soundtrack releases, when the 7.1 remix was created, sound from the soundtracks was used rather than the original soundtrack if it was available - probably because the sound would be available "clean" - i.e. not mixed with other effects or dialogue, and this easier to edit into a "three dimentional" soundscape for the 7.1 remix.

I'm not sure when stereo was created for vinyl recordings though - IIRC the early Beatles singles were mono, only the later ones were in simple stereo, seemingly dating it past 1963. However, I guess at some point in the 60s, 70s or 80's work was undertaken to release a stereo Pinocchio soundtrack album.

As for how it happened, I'm sure it's a mistake. Mistakes happen. All the time. Just like new films have mistakes. I'm not sure why it apparently isn't on the original mono recording either - especially as the European Blu-ray omits that track.

Hey, there's always the possibility the "right" was added on subsequent non-mono soundtrack releases though (but I doubt it).

I've never said any restored film is absolutely how it looked or sounded when it first came out - I've just argued that they most likely look and sound closer then people think, and I hate the suggestion that deeply dedicated professionals who obviously do care about film and film history are "mucking up" old films simply to make them look "like they were filmed yesterday", which is incredibly insulting.

[Disneykid]

Yeah, and another line of dialogue that was recorded separately from the soundtrack is also missing during that scene: Jiminy yelling, "Look out, Pinoke!" as Pinocchio runs into the paint cans. Someone on HomeTheaterForum posted video comparisons for both errors:

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htf/sd- ... ssing.html

This isn't the first time this has happened. In Lady and the Tramp, some of Aunt Sarah's off-screen dialogue is missing, and the second half of Bella Notte (the part with the chorus) is missing background instrumentals.

[ajmrowland]

Well, the scene's still as entertaining as ever. I swear Marky's gonna come in and start nit-picking the whole thing just because of two missing lines of dialogue. The original recordings were destroyed, so who knows how these got lost!? The nitpicking has already started on the page you just linked.

[Marky_198]

Well, the scene's still as entertaining as ever. I swear Marky's gonna come in and start nit-picking the whole thing just because of two missing lines of dialogue. The original recordings were destroyed, so who knows how these got lost!?

This is not about "nit-picking". This is about actual lines MISSING in a film, and this is quite an issue.

They take the whole film apart and try to "upgrade" the audio quality by separating all the lines, parts and instruments. After that they put it together again, but cleary this is done in a very untidy, sloppy way.
In Sleeping Beauty many lines are shifted, chorus parts, background music, in Lady and the Tramp, some of Aunt Sarah's off-screen dialogue is missing, and the second half of Bella Notte (the part with the chorus) is missing background instrumentals, etc, etc. And in now seems that they even forgot to put certain lines back in in Pinocchio.

It's really unacceptable, but if you tear everything apart and then try to put it together again it will never be the same. And especially with the soundtracks, it will NEVER be like the original and what the filmmakers intended.

So although you might think that the scene is still quite "entertaining", we can speak about a different film here. So I don't consider this as Disney's Pinocchio anymore. It may be a nice film, but it's a different film.

[ajmrowland]

Well, the scene's still as entertaining as ever. I swear Marky's gonna come in and start nit-picking the whole thing just because of two missing lines of dialogue. The original recordings were destroyed, so who knows how these got lost!?

This is not about "nit-picking". This is about actual lines MISSING in a film, and this is quite an issue.

They take the whole film apart and try to "upgrade" the audio quality by separating all the lines, parts and instruments. After that they put it together again, but cleary this is done in a very untidy, sloppy way.
In Sleeping Beauty many lines are shifted, chorus parts, background music, etc, etc. And in now seems that they even forgot to put certain lines back in in Pinocchio.

It's really unacceptable, but if you tear everything apart and then try to put it together again it will never be the same. And especially with the soundtracks, it will NEVER be like the original and what the filmmakers intended.

So although you might think that the scene is still quite "entertaining", we can speak about a different film here. So I don't consider this as Disney's Pinocchio anymore. It may be a nice film, but it's a different film.

Oh yeah, stop the presses! We got two minor nuances occuring in the restoration of a classic film! Oh, the horror! Forget Irag, we need to send the troops to Disney, Pronto!

[The_Iceflash]

I am curious what Disney has to say about it.

@ajmrowland: Exactly.

[Timon/Pumbaa fan]

Yeah, and another line of dialogue that was recorded separately from the soundtrack is also missing during that scene: Jiminy yelling, "Look out, Pinoke!" as Pinocchio runs into the paint cans. Someone on HomeTheaterForum posted video comparisons for both errors:

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htf/sd- ... ssing.html

This isn't the first time this has happened. In Lady and the Tramp, some of Aunt Sarah's off-screen dialogue is missing, and the second half of Bella Notte (the part with the chorus) is missing background instrumentals.

Oh yeah, I caught that the first time too.

Netty- I realize the effort put into this restoration, but considering just how many people are involved in restoring these, I really would think it would be easy to prevent errors as these. After all, aren't some of the people on the restoration team like us, who've grown up these classics an know some of them line by line? Or,(as would make logical sense) couldn't they watch the old prints AND the restored version now available just to make sure they didn't make any errors?

I know, as I said before, its just two lines from a song, there's still a lot to appreciate, but as someone who's become more conservative/a perfectionist over the past years, it really does irk whenever I watch this song(probably my favorite of the movie up there with WYWUAS). It especially irks me considering we've been waiting at least 4 years for this edition(or even a decade since we all know this movie was too good for that bare-bones edition) that we should expect near perfection of at least the presentation of this project.

[MattDean]

Not really Disney related but in the UK the most recent Special Edition of Annie (the 80's film), has a whole line of singing missing during It's a Hard Knock Life! Suppose it's to give us a chance to do a bit of Karaoke with the orphans!

Actually, I'd be interested in Disney's response to audio omissions. Pretty sure it wasn't deliberate. They go to so much time and trouble restoring these Platinums - it just seems a bit wrong for this to happen.

I'd never noticed the Lady & the Tramp omissions before, or heard anyone mention it, but many sites have noticed the missing words/lines in Pinocchio!

Come on Disney! Who's to blame? lol

Matt

[Marky_198]

Netty- I realize the effort put into this restoration, but considering just how many people are involved in restoring these, I really would think it would be easy to prevent errors as these.

I know, as I said before, its just two lines from a song, there's still a lot to appreciate, but as someone who's become more conservative/a perfectionist over the past years, it really does irk whenever I watch this song(probably my favorite of the movie up there with WYWUAS)..

Yes, I would think that too, but if you separate the film into 1000 pieces, and then put everything back again, it's almost impossible not to change the film. In Lady&the Tramp and Pinocchio they simply forgot to put in things back in, but even if they don't like in Sleeping Beauty, numerous of small things are still shifted. (lines are shifted, chorus parts, background music, instruments, etc).

And yes, it does irk very much, because you probably won't ever be able to watch the scene in a normal way again and it will take you out of the scene everytime. Because you just notice this mistakes/errors.

I'm really glad I still have the untampered versions of these films.
Which I consider to be different films.

[AliceinWonderland]

These are not the only 2 sound bits missing.. at least 3 in the first 25 minutes
I had to turn it off 30 minutes in and check the boards on why

"Look out pinoc" and "right" are the first 2, but when Ghepetto puts on the music boxes he doesn't say "music professor"

I noticed these clips were missing right away. My brother didn't believe me so we put in the older release of the movie and sure enough they were in there.

Checking out another board there was a color issue on Pinocio's shirt. changing form yellow, white, or yellow with splotches of white

I wonder if there will be a replacement like they did for the first Pirates on Blu

[Jules]

My Guess is that being as this never seems to have been on any of the soundtrack releases, when the 7.1 remix was created, sound from the soundtracks was used rather than the original soundtrack if it was available - probably because the sound would be available "clean" - i.e. not mixed with other effects or dialogue, and this easier to edit into a "three dimentional" soundscape for the 7.1 remix.

I want to mention another audio issue I noticed. I really don't wish to divert the attention off TPfan's discovery, but what I noticed is important too (and I think is related to what netty posted).

I received my Region B UK Blu-Ray / DVD combo of Pinocchio yesterday. Since I've yet to get a Blu-Ray player I tried out the the first few minutes of the film on the DVD to see what it looks like.

During the opening credits the sound was pristine. Then suddenly, when a chorus of voices (that was mixed to come out of the rear channels of the 5.1 setup) complemented the music and Jiminy Cricket's singing of the opening song (WYWUAS) an instant and deafening hiss kicked in. I was really annoyed. It felt like individual sound elements on the soundtrack (e.g. music, voice, choir) had been restored seperately (with varying degrees of success) and then put back together. So when the hissy choir started (on an otherwise non-hissy soundtrack), it startled me! And it sounded really bad.

I remember encountering a similar problem with the Platinum Edition of The Jungle Book. If I remember rightly, the soundtrack on that film always became suddenly (like Pinocchio) full of hiss everytime a musical number started! In fact, the fidelity of the sound during the musical numbers was always noticeably lesser than that during regular dialogue. What's up with that!? I don't understand, but I have a feeling netty's statement has everything to do with it.

EDIT: These audio issues are not merely annoying. Trying to listen to The Jungle Book in the midst of hiss and no hiss interchanging so fast that it feels someone is turning the hiss on and off with a switch, totally spoils the film experience and its music.

I really wish these problems might be the fault of my Sony 5.1 Surround System, rather than of the discs themselves, but I really doubt that.

[ajmrowland]

A hiss? I never heard a hiss on my copy. You got Sleeping Beauty?

[CampbellzSoup]

...I have no audio hiss during the scenes listed!

Also... I only watched Pinnochio for the first time the other day on Blu Ray High Def , and when he said 'Jiminy Cricket'! I felt something was missing as Jim didn't respond

[gregmasciola]

"Look out pinoc" and "right" are the first 2, but when Ghepetto puts on the music boxes he doesn't say "music professor"

I just checked my DVD & Blu-Ray, and he definitley does say "music professor".

[Marky_198]

I just checked my DVD & Blu-Ray, and he definitley does say "music professor".

So only 49 errors instead of 50?
That's a relief.....

[ajmrowland]

Yeah, I remember a "music professor" in that scene.

As for the hiss, you sure it's not just your sound system?

[gregmasciola]

So although you might think that the scene is still quite "entertaining", we can speak about a different film here. So I don't consider this as Disney's Pinocchio anymore. It may be a nice film, but it's a different film.

I am bothered a bit by these lines being deleted, but it doesn't make it a completely different movie.

[jotaabs]

1. Have/will there be others audio losses on previous/upcoming releases(other than Aladdin's dirty line of course)

As far as I know, in the brazilian Platinum of The Little Mermaid, Ursula's 'Keep Singing!' line was cut out.

[ajmrowland]

Aladdin's "dirty line" is actually proven to have not been dirty in the first place. It's "Good kitty, take off and go" He's talking to a cat for crying out loud! You just got caught up in a theory that's been made up by perverted parental-control freaks who look for flaws where there aren't any.