Audio Errors of Restoration..

[Disney Duster]

If the lines are missing from the entire DVD or Blu-ray of the movie, this must be corrected by Disney now, or in a future release.

BUT...are the original lines included on the original mono track, the un-mixed version or whatever? If it is, then it's not so much a crime and at least Pinocchio is presented correctly in one form.

But I don't understand how anyone can think deleting lines from a film, when it's not the original filmakers doing it, is okay...and can be left alone...? That's changing Walt Disney's classic, deleting something from it!

[drfsupercenter]

Well as far as that hissing thing, UGH, DEHT mixes. I can't stand those!

Now, is it just me, or does the "restored original soundtrack" suck? I mean, I know it's only mono, but it's not supposed to sound like a cassette tape! Why couldn't they put the care and precision they put into making phony surround mixes as they put in that?! Like, listen to Aladdin's DEHT, it literally makes the singing hard to hear on non-surround systems. Jeez.

And hm, didn't the VHS and old DVD have a 2.0 stereo mix? I'm curious if that sounds better than the restored mono one. I'm betting it does.

And yeah, Aladdin never had a dirty line. But of course, Disney doesn't try to explain their urban legends, they just "correct" them (like the SFX cloud in TLK, the kneecap in TLM, etc. etc.) Not to mention Arabian Nights, though that was more a total change than just a tweak as we're talking about.

[JDCB1986]

I want to mention another audio issue I noticed. I really don't wish to divert the attention off TPfan's discovery, but what I noticed is important too (and I think is related to what netty posted).

I received my Region B UK Blu-Ray / DVD combo of Pinocchio yesterday. Since I've yet to get a Blu-Ray player I tried out the the first few minutes of the film on the DVD to see what it looks like.

During the opening credits the sound was pristine. Then suddenly, when a chorus of voices (that was mixed to come out of the rear channels of the 5.1 setup) complemented the music and Jiminy Cricket's singing of the opening song (WYWUAS) an instant and deafening hiss kicked in. I was really annoyed. It felt like individual sound elements on the soundtrack (e.g. music, voice, choir) had been restored seperately (with varying degrees of success) and then put back together. So when the hissy choir started (on an otherwise non-hissy soundtrack), it startled me! And it sounded really bad.

I remember encountering a similar problem with the Platinum Edition of The Jungle Book. If I remember rightly, the soundtrack on that film always became suddenly (like Pinocchio) full of hiss everytime a musical number started! In fact, the fidelity of the sound during the musical numbers was always noticeably lesser than that during regular dialogue. What's up with that!? I don't understand, but I have a feeling netty's statement has everything to do with it.

EDIT: These audio issues are not merely annoying. Trying to listen to The Jungle Book in the midst of hiss and no hiss interchanging so fast that it feels someone is turning the hiss on and off with a switch, totally spoils the film experience and its music.

I really wish these problems might be the fault of my Sony 5.1 Surround System, rather than of the discs themselves, but I really doubt that.

Check the wiring of your cables... make sure every wire is going to its correct port.
The same thing happened with my sisters DVD player and when I checked the back of it... the audio wires weren't plugged in correctly... I fixed them and the hiss went away.

[2099net]

Firstly, the 7.1 remix is not "restoration" - its new. Converting a mono soundtrack to multi-part stereo cannot by anybody's imagination be called "restoration".

I also wouldn't be surprised if this remixing is done by Disney themselves, rather than the restoration company. After all Lowry is now called DTS Images. Don't assume the visual restoration is connected to the audio remix. (Although it probably is - Robert Harris did work on the controversial Vertigo soundtrack).

In short, you shouldn't expect a 7.1 soundtrack to be the same as the original soundtrack (like Jaws was on its DVD début, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the effects on the soundtrack are totally new foley recordings for example)

Secondly, at least in the US, Disney is including the mono soundtrack on the disc so you can listen to the un-remixed soundtrack. Sadly, this isn't the case in the UK or Europe, so I can't confirm if the missing sounds are on or off the mono track (I've read conflicting reports).

As for how do the mistakes happen, well, they happen. Many mistakes happened on the Disney Treasures line for example (or the infamous colour-swap on one of the Walt Disney Legacy collection releases) which were much more noticeable and should have been picked up on casual inspection.

Restoration or remixing is just as much of an art as a technical process, and my guess is the restorers are working to a deadline just as other people in other jobs are. The days of 2+ years restoration like on the previous Sleeping Beauty are, I suspect, long behind us as people demand more from their home video and the demand for HD transfers (for home video and HD TV) increases exponentially.

After all, I would suspect there would be hell to pay on this forum if Pinocchio was delayed from its March release for additional restoration work.

What I don't like is the sense of "entitlement" that creeps into these threads, or comments about "ruining" films.

Most people here are getting a copy of the film, be it on DVD or Blu-ray for a cost of under $30 (about half the cost of the laserdisc release) and for that price you're getting not only the film with a clarity not seen possibly since the 1940's, but also hours of supplements, a remixed soundtrack. And according to at least half the internet reports does also include the proper original mono soundtrack. Unlike a lot of discs from Disney these days, Disney cannot be assused of "crapping" this release out; time, money and effort was spent on almost every aspect of its release. Any yet people still find something to bitch and complain about, convinced Disney is purposely "destroying" it's own older films...

This isn't a jab at T/P Fan who asked a perfectly reasonable question, but really, the lack of gratitude exhibited can be nauseating.

[2099net]

And hm, didn't the VHS and old DVD have a 2.0 stereo mix? I'm curious if that sounds better than the restored mono one. I'm betting it does.

DD doesn't support mono - all mono soundtracks are DD 2.0 with equal weight to the left and right channels, which may explain the DD 2.0 listing on older releases.

[KubrickFan]

DD doesn't support mono - all mono soundtracks are DD 2.0 with equal weight to the left and right channels, which may explain the DD 2.0 listing on older releases.

Um, yes it does, actually. I have several Criterion titles that have DD mono tracks, coming out of the center speaker.
Someone on HTF checked the original mono track of Pinocchio, and the line was missing there as well, which is odd.

[2099net]

DD doesn't support mono - all mono soundtracks are DD 2.0 with equal weight to the left and right channels, which may explain the DD 2.0 listing on older releases.

Um, yes it does, actually. I have several Criterion titles that have DD mono tracks, coming out of the center speaker.
Someone on HTF checked the original mono track of Pinocchio, and the line was missing there as well, which is odd.

Sorry, I meant Dolby Surround doesn't support "mono" as such, which would be the encoding method on any VHS.

http://www.hometheaterfocus.com/surroun ... round.aspx

[Marky_198]

Someone on HTF checked the original mono track of Pinocchio, and the line was missing there as well, which is odd.

That's really odd.
Because on my previous Pinocchio dvd's the soundtracks sound amazing, and they still have all the lines. It's obvious they didn't use those.

Could it be possible that the "original" track isn't the original at all, but just the completely restored, messed up version, but made into a crappy sounding mono version, to play with the audience and to "amplify" the idea of how great and clear the new version sounds?

Because obviously it's another version.
And the original restored track doesn't have to be mono at all, like it wasn't on the previous dvd, and doesn't have missing lines either.

And, as we all know, it wouldn't be the first time that Disney presents something as "OTV" while it clearly isn't........
And this is how Disney works, because I remember all the images of picture restoration as well, where the "before" pictures and clips are deliberately altered and look worse, while the film actually never looked like that. And sometimes they even use the fully restored version for the "before pics" but just make the image dark and unclear.....

[2099net]

Because obviously it's another version.

Well, just to play devil's advocate, there is the smallest of chances the "Right" was never on the "original" version, but yes I agree its more than likely not the original.

My feeling is the sound "restoration" was totally different from the picture restoration, and most likely done in-house.

And the original restored track doesn't have to be mono at all, like it wasn't on the previous dvd, and doesn't have missing lines either.
And, as we all know, it wouldn't be the first time that Disney presents something as "OTV" while it clearly isn't........

Of course it has to be mono if you want the original restored soundtrack. The original wasn't stereo, so the restored soundtrack shouldn't be stereo.

When it comes to the remixed soundtrack, course lines shouldn't be dropped - but you know, most of these goofs could and should have been avoided on the original movie too: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0032910/goofs

By mixing a new multi-channel stereo soundtrack, the sound mixers are more or less doing the equivalent of a totally new sound mix for a film made today, and all that entails..

As for Disney advertising the "original" soundtrack, that's more of a Disney marketing issue. When you're dealing with a company that often misrepresents facts ("for the first time ever... on 2 disc DVD", restoration before and after clips etc) its pretty much par for the course.

[Marky_198]

2099net, what I'm saying is, that on my previous Pinocchio dvd version there is a wonderful sounding soundtrack which is not mono.
It's the original in terms of timing, instruments, etc, and all the lines are actually included. They didn't mess with anything, that's why I call it original, even though they made it stereo.
I mean, isn't that what everyone wants? The original track, but sounding richer and better in stereo?

In any case, this is much less worse than messing around with the soundtrack, forget lines, shift instruments, and then make a very crappy mono version out of that and present it as the "original mono soundtrack". (considering this one has the missing lines as well).

The "goofs" you're talking about is a different thing. Every movie has goofs like that. But it has nothing to do with tampering with a film 70 years later and actually remove things, change timings, etc.

[2099net]

2099net, what I'm saying is, that on my previous Pinocchio dvd version there is a wonderful sounding soundtrack which is not mono. It's the original in terms of timing, instruments, etc, and all the lines are actually included.

Well, you think it has all the correct sounds, but how do you know? Various Laserdiscs have had parts of sound removed by mistake, its just nobody picked up on the matter and have since grown used to it.

For example the LaserDisc and one VHS release of of Lady and the Tramp had similar errors - see
http://www.thecinemalaser.com/letters-to-the-editor.htm

To The Editor:

This is in regards to your review of LADY AND THE TRAMP.
Nice review - however, one very important aspect of the LADY AND THE TRAMP DVD has been almost uniformly overlooked in the press. The last VHS and Laserdisc pressings of LADY AND THE TRAMP were faulty, with whole lines of dialogue and song lyrics missing. Someone over at THX or Buena Vista goofed when porting lines of dialogue to either the left channel or the surround channels, and these lines never made it into the transfer! With the DVD of LADY AND THE TRAMP, Disney has *very* quietly fixed the problem (most notably in the scene where Aunt Sarah shoos Lady from the baby's room and begins singing "Rock-A-Bye-Baby", horribly...her singing is missing on VHS and Laser - Lady is reacting to thin air!)

And
http://www.tvsa.co.za/showinfo.asp?showid=895

- In the 1999 video release*, some scenes had pieces of dialogue missing that had been part of the original theatrical release. This was believed to be caused by the studio restoration process that incorporated both US and international formats of the film, which inadvertently created a hybrid version. Disney often produces different international and foreign versions of their films to make the foreign dialogue fit.

* I suspect they mean 1998 release - L&tT was released on LD and VHS in 1998, and DVD towards the end of 1999 (with an apparently "fixed" soundtrack).

Yet I'm sure, had you not known the problem, you could easily have held the LD or VHS soundtrack (should it be the one you were used to) to be correct and the "definitive classic sound".

Mistakes happen. End of story.

They didn't mess with anything, that's why I call it original, even though they made it stereo.
I mean, isn't that what everyone wants? The original track, but sounding richer and better in stereo?

In any case, this is much less worse than messing around with the soundtrack, forget lines, shift instruments, and then make a very crappy mono version out of that and present it as the "original mono soundtrack". (considering this one has the missing lines as well).

The "goofs" you're talking about is a different thing. Every movie has goofs like that. But it has nothing to do with tampering with a film 70 years later and actually remove things, change timings, etc.

They did mess with it. They had to, to make it stereo. They just messed with it better.

Look, on one hand, you're talking about tampering with the original, yet you also say everyone wants the original track, but sounding better and in stereo. Well, you can't have both. You have to tamper to get stereo, and I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the sound effects have to be re-recorded to do this.

Yes, Disney are deceptive with their labelling, but that's not really a restoration issue. As you know, its not even on the non-US releases, so Disney obviously don't see the original sound - be it "original" or not, as a priority.

[Marky_198]

Well, you think it has all the correct sounds, but how do you know? Various Laserdiscs have had parts of sound removed by mistake, its just nobody picked up on the matter and have since grown used to it.

On one hand, you're talking about tampering with the original, yet you also say everyone wants the original track, but sounding better and in stereo. Well, you can't have both. You have to tamper to get stereo, and I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the sound effects have to be re-recorded to do this.

I know this because the early dvd version had all the sounds that the new blu ray/dvd has too. Only it also includes lines that are missing in the Blu ray/dvd. It's impossible that the lines were accidentally put INto a film right? Or do you suggest that the lines that were there earlier could have been mistakes? And that missing lines or shifted chorus parts that make no sense musically anymore could actually be "correct"?

Of course it can go the other way around too, like happened with Lady&the Tramp, but if there are 2 versions available, it's easy to tell what a mistake/missing line, or in Sleeping beauty's case "shifted chorus, instrument", etc, is.

And like I said, I don't consider changing mono to stereo as tampering as this can be done (and is done a lot, without re-recording effects whatsoever) without tampering with the film at all. The sound is just divided instead of mono. Nothing else is changed. The whole track stays the same. Stereo clips on youtube are shown as mono as well, this has nothing to do with the clips itself.


"Mistakes happen. End of story."

Mistakes happen. BEGINNING of story.
Mistakes need to be fixed as soon as possible.
What's a film worth as the soundtrack, lines, instruments, chorus parts, are all changed and the image too?

This is NOT Disney's Pinocchio.
This is some 2009 employees, tampered sequel.
NOT the same film.

[Marky_198]

They did mess with it. They had to, to make it stereo. .

Not 1 person on earth would complain if they made the original track stereo and put it on dvd(like they did with the previous Pinocchio release, which was wonderful), and also made the original mono track available on that dvd.

Now, they have a very tampered version put together. And they present the same tampered version in mono-disguise as the original?
And the viewer has no choice of watching the original, not even the original mono?! Now that's rude of Disney.....

[2099net]

And like I said, I don't consider changing mono to stereo as tampering as this can be done (and is done a lot, without re-recording effects whatsoever) without tampering with the film at all. The sound is just divided instead of mono. Nothing else is changed. The whole track stays the same. Stereo clips on youtube are shown as mono as well, this has nothing to do with the clips itself.

But how do you divide overlapping sounds, if all you have is a single mono recording? Even with all the technology we have, we don't have a foolproof way to isolate a specific sound, recorded in mono, from other overlapping sounds on the same mono soundtrack. You can only make mono into stereo without much tampering IF you have clean dialogue, music and effects tracks.

Probably not something filmmakers were thinking about in 1940 when Pinocchio was made, before Walt's stereo experiments with Fantasia. But its more likely in Pinocchio's case being an animated film than a live action film of the time.

However, it could be possible if Disney recorded and kept these clean tracks separate for later overseas dubbing. But considering even in 1931, only 9 years before, Universal would rather go to the expense and trouble to film a totally different version of Dracula (the famous Spanish version) rather than dub the English version, it seems a little hopeful - I'm not sure what the process for dubbing was in 1940, nor if Walt ever thought he would need to remaster his animated films' soundtracks once they were complete.

And even if you did have the original clean soundtrack elements available, there's probably lots of takes of each sequence. You've seen how they record animation voice-overs today: "that's great, can we have another where you're a little more angry/sad/happy? etc." So what if you're faced with 10+ takes of the song's lyrics, but no documentation on which was used? Or what if the take that was used was somewhat corrupted or damaged?

When Jaws was first released on DVD, they did a 5.1 remix and rerecorded ALL of the sound effects, as for some reason the archived sound effects track wasn't kept in a condition good enough for the remix. This caused a huge controversy at the time - mainly because Universal didn't include the original mono soundtrack and also because the original soundtrack was an Oscar winner.

Ignoring the wrongness of the omission of the mono soundtrack (which was rectified on the next DVD release), there was really nothing else that could be done in Jaws' case - sound effects had to be re-recorded if they wanted a 5.1 remix, and presumably Steven Speilberg gave his the go-ahead - he's deeply involved in the home video release of all his films.

These days its unlikely most sounds you hear on a film soundtrack - even live action ones - are "live" as they happen sounds. After filming, its common for the actors to re-record their dialogue, for foley artists record all-new sound effects. This means the various elements (music, effects, dialogue) can be mixed and even replaced (thus a French language dub would have the music and effects, but newly recorded dialogue, or filming near a busy road can have the sound of the cars replaced and quieter so the re-recorded dialogue can be heard).

I very much doubt the entirety of Pinocchio's effects could have been extracted from the mono soundtrack, or had been specially recorded and kept by Disney in a usable form. So I think its likely some of the effects in the new soundtrack will be newly recorded Foley effects. If that's the case, more than missing lines are different about the new soundtrack.

You've got to understand, if "Mr. Sound Mixer" was asked to make a 7.1 remix, he and his colleagues had no option but to tamper. And that tampering could have resulted in literally hundreds of tiny sound clips, which had to be knitted back together. It's not tampering for tampering's sake, its tampering to satisfy a remit and sadly, just like with original films, mistakes happen. I'm sure "Mr. Sound Mixer" is horrified to discover he has inadvertently missed some sound out. My guess is it's very easy to do when the line is voiced by a character off-screen (as in the L&tT case as well). Maybe "Mr. Sound Mixer" had the CD soundtrack way before being assigned to the job, and was already familiar with the song - a version with also omits the line of dialogue?

As for Disney labelling the mono track "the original" when it isn't, well, I can't argue that with you. It's wrong.

But that's a totally different issue than you seemingly saying people are set on destroying Disney's films. I'm not saying everyone should shrug their shoulders, but there's no intent to remove anything, and its not exactly vandalism either.

[2099net]

They did mess with it. They had to, to make it stereo. .

Not 1 person on earth would complain if they made the original track stereo and put it on dvd(like they did with the previous Pinocchio release, which was wonderful), and also made the original mono track available on that dvd.

Actually if you read the reviews, some people did complain saying it wasn't aggressive enough (but that's more or less the same on the new remix too).

[2099net]

The Remix Controversy: An [almost] Insider speaks:

http://www.magicmusic.net/forums/index. ... st&p=29494

Unfortunately, I can be of little help to both questions.

First, I’m not involved with the Home Entertainment releases. I sometimes help in research, by finding and restoring the song demos and such. Recently, in the case of Sleeping Beauty, it was the elements I found to build the soundtrack album (in 1996) that prompted the studio to rebuild the audio for the new BluRay. If I’m involved at all, it’s usually in the historic element side of thing. I don’t know what was done on Pinocchio.

Second, the Pinocchio Soundtrack is the only Classic Soundtrack (aside from Fantasia) that I did not produce. I did assist in some research to help Michael Leon (the producer) find some elements and offer advice. But what I can tell you is similar to the situations in all of my own soundtrack restoration projects as well – most of the original separated elements no longer exist.

In the 1950’s there was a movement within the film industry to get rid of all the nitrate based film stock (it could spontaneously combust). When they began what I refer to as: ‘The Great Purge’, it was decided to only transfer “important” elements to the new Safety Film. In most cases, the separated elements – the vocals, the effects, the dialog, and the music elements were destroyed. They felt that the only elements necessary to save were the Composite (complete mix) for new prints over the years, and the M&E (the music and effects mix without vocal or dialog) for use in dubbing the films into other languages. They never thought that anyone would ever go back and remix a film – it was unheard of at the time, and why waste the funds.

Fortunately, they weren’t completely thorough. Some elements survived ¬- maybe bits and pieces, and sometimes complete songs. Every single soundtrack I’ve restored (except for Poppins and Jungle Book), were cobbled together from whatever elements I could find.

In the case of Pinocchio, I know that Michael and I found the Music Only elements. There were in mis-marked cans, and we assume that it was because of this that they survived The Great Purge. However, no vocals could be found. So we turned to the WDL record master that Tutti Camarata produced in the 1950s. It turns out that Tutti started producing the WDL soundtrack series just before the purge, so he had access to those long lost separated elements. Michael used that master as the source for the songs. It may have been when Tutti originally created those album tracks, when those lines went missing. That’s just a guess, but it seems likely.

Incredibly, as we were going through those mis-marked Pinocchio cans, we came across a treasure – in the very last can were several small reels of film. They turned out to be the separated music only, vocal, and chorus tracks for “When You Wish Upon a Star”. And if the fates conspired to only allow us to rebuild and restore one song in Pinocchio – I’m exceeding grateful that was the song!

I know, a lot of words just to say “I don’t know”, but there ya are.

Randy

[Matt]

So this affects the Platinum Edition DVD as well?
And that really stinks to be honest. I wish Disney could have fixed this before releasing the film again

Glad I have the Gold Classic Collection DVD

P.S. KEEP YOUR ORIGINAL DVDS!

[Jules]

Incredibly, as we were going through those mis-marked Pinocchio cans, we came across a treasure – in the very last can were several small reels of film. They turned out to be the separated music only, vocal, and chorus tracks for “When You Wish Upon a Star”. And if the fates conspired to only allow us to rebuild and restore one song in Pinocchio – I’m exceeding grateful that was the song!

Dammit! That must be it! The reason for the hiss!

Does anyone remember my post?

[Marky_198]

2099net, you have some great points.
Thanks for your post.

[2099net]

Good Lord, as Dottie pointed out in the Pinocchio Platinum Discussion thread, I can confirm both the "Right" and "Look out Pinoke!" are on the UK European Blu-ray 7.1 soundmix!

ETA: But they're not on the DVD