Wish

[Thumper_93]

This is a disaster
https://x.com/luiz_fernando_j/status/1 ... 57845?s=46

[PatrickvD]

If Wish doesn’t lead to leadership change at WDAS I don’t know what will.

Excluding Encanto, a sleeper hit, they haven’t had a true success since Moana. Frozen 2 was a financial success but who really talks about that movie?

They’re super disconnected from what audiences want at this point.

[Patricier21]

Um… I think a quick cursory glance of this man’s Twitter feed reveals he is not exactly an unbiased source lol

Also… I just have to push back against this idea that conservative audiences have always trusted Disney until this moment in time. That’s patently not true. In the 90’s there was a lot of evangelical pushback against Disney.

I’m sure I travel in much different circles than this dude, but when people ask me about my experience with Wish, they ask “is it worth the money?” And I can’t really in good conscience recommend they see it in theaters since A) despite my personal enjoyment as a huge Disney fan, it’s a mid-tier movie, and B) it will be out on Disney+ in a few months.

Well maybe if you changed your attitude about it, not seen it as a mid tier movie (which it’s not, even if not the very best),Considering why I and others actually love it, and maybe why you may be over thinking it,And reminding people that it will in fact not be on Disney+ in a few months per the recent change in strategy and giving movies a little bit more than that to play on the big screen, then maybe just maybe he might be able to help convince others to go and check it out

[UmbrellaFish]

The Mouse hasn’t signed my paychecks in 5 years, I won’t do his work for free!

[Patricier21]

The Mouse hasn’t signed my paychecks in 5 years, I won’t do his work for free!

Did you actually work for Disney? But either way, if you are truly a fan, and don’t want things to potentially get any worse and or not in your favor, you should at least consider some of what I’ve said. Maybe at least check it out a second time if you haven’t already because that might overall change your opinion, eh?

[UmbrellaFish]

Yes, I worked in the parks as part of the Disney College Program for a year. No involvement with the movie side of things, in case my joke made it sound like I was saying that.

You know, I’ve written in this thread that I actually did enjoy the film despite its issues. I cannot personally justify spending the money to see it in theaters again (actually, in all my life I don’t think I’ve ever seen any movie more than once in the movie theater). I am eagerly awaiting its release on Disney+ and 4K disc to rewatch it.

[Patricier21]

Yes, I worked in the parks as part of the Disney College Program for a year. No involvement with the movie side of things, in case my joke made it sound like I was saying that.

You know, I’ve written in this thread that I actually did enjoy the film despite its issues. I cannot personally justify spending the money to see it in theaters again (actually, in all my life I don’t think I’ve ever seen any movie more than once in the movie theater). I am eagerly awaiting its release on Disney+ and 4K disc to rewatch it.

But like I said, you could try to change your tactic towards others, again if you actually want to help things be better and not only for the movie but for Disney overall, Especially if like you said you actually enjoy the movie, And truly believe that it doesn’t deserve to fail like this

[UmbrellaFish]

Patricier21, it’s not up to the fans to fix Disney’s problems. Even if I was so inclined, there is no fixing Wish’s problems at the box office now… word of mouth was not positive enough to turn the tide and that’s not going to change.

Maybe you need to change your perspective. Sometimes failure is healthy for a studio… it will encourage them to reevaluate their practices. Maybe Wish’s failure at the box office will encourage them to spend more time working on the story of the next Disney film and it will be much better!

[DisneyJedi]

Maybe Wish’s failure at the box office will encourage them to spend more time working on the story of the next Disney film and it will be much better!

Or maybe they’ll misinterpret it as people not being interested in more stylized looking animated films or films that aren’t sequels and pump out standard CGI looking sequels forever. Part of the reason why they’ve been doing live action remakes or sequels is because anytime they’ve done risky live action projects, it’s blown up in their faces.

[Mooky]

This is giving cult behavior. No studio (or company, or organization) should be exempt from valid criticism. Regardless of how much you enjoyed Wish, the point stands that it's objectively a badly written and assembled movie (and I enjoyed it, but I also enjoyed Catwoman. That doesn't stop me from recognizing it as a bad movie.) People don't own studios anything and they're not "letting the movie flop on purpose". I mean, what? They just rather spend their money elsewhere. And speaking as someone who has spent thousands on Disney products, whether movie tickets, home media, merchandise, and subscriptions, I (and everyone else) deserve better entertainment from the company. Don't settle for mediocrity.

[PatchofBlue]

Yeah, watching Disney fail is like seeing your grown-up child making poor life decisions. You may want to rescue them, but in the end the best thing you can do is just let them learn from their mistakes.

I've said before, Disney needs to internalize that whatever the memes dictate, the public doesn't respond to Disney because of a specific assemblage of tropes or images. They respond to sincere storytelling, and the moment they start delivering that, I'll be the first to celebrate.

In the meantime, I think the best autopsy we can give for Wish is one of nuance and discernment. There have been a lot of amateur commentators overreacting in trying to paint this as the "DISNEY'S WOOORST MOVIE EVERERER!!!!!" which it definitely isn't. There are things about the movie that work, and it's worth discussing both what those are and how they could have landed better in a more even product. I think a better outlet for people who are discouraged by this movie's performance might be investing in creating healthy dialogue that rejects the best/worst binary and seeks to look at the movie's strengths and shortcomings honestly, because that's where the learning actually happens.

[Patricier21]

This is giving cult behavior. No studio (or company, or organization) should be exempt from valid criticism. Regardless of how much you enjoyed Wish, the point stands that it's objectively a badly written and assembled movie (and I enjoyed it, but I also enjoyed Catwoman. That doesn't stop me from recognizing it as a bad movie.) People don't own studios anything and they're not "letting the movie flop on purpose". I mean, what? They just rather spend their money elsewhere. And speaking as someone who has spent thousands on Disney products, whether movie tickets, home media, merchandise, and subscriptions, I (and everyone else) deserve better entertainment from the company. Don't settle for mediocrity.

Just because the majority thinks a certain way does not mean that they are the “objective” mindset; what if they’re all misguided by the same thing? Just like how Most people did not bathe during mediaeval times, Like most people didn’t know that Pluto was a planet, like how most people were taught to automatically plays nine Caucasian people to sit at the back of the bus, back at the room etc. what’s the difference here? It’s called Growth and development, because you’re forgetting that we’re all the same species: human, a species the quite frankly I’ve said before is more than objectively the most misguided and screwed up, which I know most of you overall agree with even if you’ll never admit it.

A lot of people felt the same about certain movies like blade runner, and other movies I did not do so well when they first came out only to be regarded as classics (Pinocchio and the original Fantasia Bombed when they came out; Yes there was extenuating circumstances, But many people would consider the original Fantasia is having a valid criticism of being “too boring” and “slow”, not to mention that I personally find Pinocchios character development to be quite week even for the times, of which dare I say it I actually find the live action remake did a much better job of). Not to mention how people originally thought about the Empire strikes back when it first came out, of which it along with the Original Star Wars trilogy, and Star Wars overall I know through critical thinking to be a badly assembled and written and performed franchise (Waymore than Wish, That’s for sure). The only reason why people look back fondly on this because of its historical significance, which is important yes but it doesn’t change the fact that it’s still an overall horribly executed And presented franchise, I criticism of which no one seems to have a problem with most modern movies when they arguably did just as much or more than Star Wars and or even more beloved such as Harry Potter, middle earth, avatar, even Marvel etc. Like my brother has said, just because it’s different and or even stands out does not necessarily mean that it’s good. And I know for a fact That a lot of you Are only going with majority overall and her condition into thinking that it’s “Objective“ Because the majority think so, and with that you’re afraid of standing out and being ostracized because you think differently from them and or because you think it’s worthless because you don’t think it’ll make any difference, when it actually overall does even if only the long run. Look at something again like the first Hocus Pocus And where it is now compared to what’s initial reception; did everybody else care they didn’t do that well or get that good reviews (Wish has a much higher rotten tomatoes score then I believe both hocus-pocus movies if I’m not mistaken)? If they did, then how and why is it such a phenomenon now? How do you know the same thing can’t happen to wish or any other movie like I said I didn’t do that well like blade runner, the Wizard of Oz, Fantasia, Atlantis, treasure planet and all these other Disney Classics that did not do that well initially?

Yes, no studio let alone literally anything for that matter should be exempt from any kind of criticism, but there’s also something to be said that maybe just maybe the people that are doing the critiquing have something wrong with them too? It always truly takes two or more to tango, and again just because you won’t admit it does not mean that it’s not true. Wish is not the very best Disney animated movie ever, but I do know for a fact as I’ve seen on here and other places that a lot of the criticism towards it or result of people over thinking it and or demanding expecting too much out of it, and again because their overall mindset towards Disney and even frankly movies and life in general. You have to admit it that the higher cost and expense in movies is also another factor here, but does that mean that it’s fair for this and other movies to have to fail whenever they very well could’ve and should’ve done a lot better? All I’m asking is for you to be more considerate and realize that even if it is against the majority, you always truly have potential To make a difference, even if it may not be specifically or directly That much of an impact and or what you’re looking for, because at least it’s more true and valuable to you and therefore whatever else is involved with it no matter what no matter how otherwise it may seem

[Mooky]

Patricier, you're confusing objective thinking with majority thinking, two very different and quite incomparable concepts. Sometimes they overlap, sometimes they don't.

You don't have to like Star Wars, Blade Runner or Fantasia to recognize they're objectively well-written, well-acted, well-directed and overall well-made films. I personally don't have Fantasia anywhere near my Top 50 or Top 100 animated features list because it bores me to death (again, a subjective opinion). I still can't deny that it's a masterpiece, just one that I don't enjoy. On that same personal enjoyment scale, I liked Wish more than Fantasia, because it ticked more boxes for me than Fantasia ever did. I do like Fantasia 2000 better than either of them though.

However, if you go by critics' reviews -- and I mean actual film critics who studied film and who know more about filmmaking process than either you or I, not YouTube or TikTok or random movie blogs -- you'll see that their reviews of Wish point out serious structural and narrative issues with the movie, and that's even before going into issues with the songs and animation. Sure, no critic is 100% objective and I'm certain many of them tend to judge the object of their critique through a personal lens, but their professonal, educated critique still carries more weight than either of our opinions.

So enjoy Wish as much as you want, go see it at the movies as many times as you want, buy it on a disc, do whatever you want. But don't try to shame people for not liking it, or come up with excuses for bad storytelling, or tell people they don't like it because they don't like something about themselves (um, what?) It's insulting and off-putting, and nobody should owe you an explanation for why they dislike something, nor will they change their mind about it just because you tell them to do so. Imagine me telling you to change your dismissive attitude about Star Wars.

[Patricier21]

Patricier, you're confusing objective thinking with majority thinking, two very different and quite incomparable concepts. Sometimes they overlap, sometimes they don't.

You don't have to like Star Wars, Blade Runner or Fantasia to recognize they're objectively well-written, well-acted, well-directed and overall well-made films. I personally don't have Fantasia anywhere near my Top 50 or Top 100 animated features list because it bores me to death (again, a subjective opinion). I still can't deny that it's a masterpiece, just one that I don't enjoy. On that same personal enjoyment scale, I liked Wish more than Fantasia, because it ticked more buttons for me than Fantasia ever did. I do like Fantasia 2000 better than either of them though.

However, if you go by critics' reviews -- and I mean actual film critics who studied film and who know more about filmmaking process than either you or I, not YouTube or TikTok or random movie blogs -- you'll see that their reviews of Wish point out serious structural and narrative issues with the movie, and that's even before going into issues with the songs and animation. Sure, no critic is 100% objective and I'm certain many of them tend to judge the object of their critique through a personal lens, but their professonal, educated critique still carries more weight than either of our opinions.

So enjoy Wish as much as you want, go see it at the movies as many times as you want, buy it on a disc, do whatever you want. But don't try to shame people for not liking it, or come up with excuses for bad storytelling, or tell people they don't like it because they don't like something about themselves (um, what?) It's insulting and off-putting, and nobody should owe you an explanation for why they dislike something, nor will they change their mind about it just because you tell them to do so. Imagine me telling you to change your dismissive attitude about Star Wars.

Sorry to go off topic for a bit, but seriously, you mean to tell me that the original Star Wars with Carrie fishers inconsistent accent, Alec Guinness of all people let alone pretty much the entire cast not really seeming like they understand what they’re saying, the lore being inconsistent within and between the movies, As if it’s being constantly made up as it goes along (things like Darth Vader apparently been able to read Luke’s mind during their final duel in return of the Jedi?), Exposition like the clone wars mentioned in the original that are not really explain us of what they are, so it comes off as sounding like lunacy gibberish, the fact that technically speaking most people would probably never even actually seen the original Star Wars per the lack of official release of the actual original version on altered in any kind of way that was shown in theatres in 1977, is still a masterpiece? Again, what it really stems from is people living in the past and not realizing that the main draw and emphasis on the original Star Wars is the fact that there was nothing ever like it AT THE TIME. What about nowadays? I’ve been seeing quite a few people online and in person who agree that Star Wars is dated and doesn’t hold up as well nor is as good as it’s revered. Like I said, it more than seems like people are becoming conditioned into liking it, which again is something that is SUBJECTIVE Which means that all depends on the person and how they think and feel towards things. Saying something is generic, which FYI is what a lot of people said about my personal favourite Disney animated movie, Disney’s dinosaur, and witch to this day even though I’m a lot older, I still strongly disagree and even with the fact that it does share a lot of similarities with the original land before time (which I actually did see several times when I was younger before even seeing dinosaur and even nowadays still don’t really feel like it’s that similar or at least it doesn’t bother me or doesn’t come Off As feeling “generic” as it’s made out to be), If anything only has me like it even more because of that. I actually find it very very strange that people think something is bad because it’s too similar to such and such; if you ask me, you’re coming off way more as actually not liking that original thing if you’re so mad that such and such is “copying” Something else.

You also have to realize, like James Cameron of all people said, that Movies and anything similar to them, are always truly about experience. There’s always more to them than just a story and structure, regardless of the fact that it is the most important thing overall, if not second to the characters. It’s always truly about how the story is told, the concept, the world, again the characters and everything else that you’re experiencing with it. Again, “generic” does not stop me and quite a decent amount of other people from loving Disney’s dinosaur, avatar, etc. if this were the case, then movies would’ve stopped a long time ago, and quite frankly seems like a lot of people nowadays are acting like they actually want that to happen if they’re gonna be this picky, Which is another Main reason why a lot of movies haven’t been doing that well, because it’s all in the eye of beholder. Just look at the most recent mission impossible, it got phenomenal reviews, It’s based off of a more than decently popular contemporary franchise, and it has the same star, studio and other similar people involved that were involved with last year’s second highest grossing movie and over $1 billion movie top gun Maverick, and yet it pretty much bombed at the box office. What does that tell you?

Going back to critics, well the thing is, you need to focus and emphasize more on the fact that movies are again SUBJECTIVE. If anything, the fact of these critics have seen so many movies only Proves that you shouldn’t really be listening to them, because maybe just maybe they’ve seen too much, to the point where they and their mindsets are over thinking things and or are expecting them to be exactly the same as these other ones that they pray so much. And yet ironically,With all this complaint about movies being “generic”, maybe just maybe some of these complaints are actually what helps make it stand as its own thing. A lot of people complain about the structure of my big fat Greek wedding 3 Feeling too much like a travel brochure/travel montage, and yet, that’s actually why I quite enjoy it, Waymore than Barbie, Oppenheimer and Dom money, all of which I found even if they may be more well crafted and polish than the third my big fat Greek wedding, just overall did not deliver on what they were promised or rather overdid it and just missed the mark which made them overall invaluable. Because the thing is, you need to be able to look at it for what it overall is. The third my big fat Greek wedding taking this kind of structure is what helps it stand out and be valuable and enjoyable, because that’s kind of what the whole point of it is, we’re going on a trip to Greece with these characters, and having an experience with them. Yes, the movie does start to fall apart towards the end, but overall despite that, the overall delivered on what they were promised or rather delivered in a way that wasn’t expected but in a good way. Compared to Barbie, which frankly overdid What it was trying to say, and just became very cynical and silly towards the end which also ruins the momentum, pacing and structure Of its overall experience and value, but it still certainly does, but it just leaves a very unsatisfying taste in the end where it’s hard to at least completely appreciate what it did get right, even if it is a good majority of it. Oppenheimer also overdid it and lost its momentum, for being way too long and then it needed to be, and seemingly repeated itself with a lot of very similar scenes, And other scenes including most of the ones with Florence Pugh which don’t really seem overall necessary, and then you could easily cut and still have the same but even better impact and experience of what it is trying to say, a sentiment That my brother, cousin and best friend all thought as well. Personally I am potentially they all thought that you don’t really get/keep the nuance of what is trying to present thematically overall, Which is actually the whole reason why I want to see it long for the big bars and phenomenon that it became, and I personally found it didn’t deliver, or if it did it’s in a very mediocre and not really monumental way like everybody else is saying. And for dumb money, well my parents also agree that they really make it seem like you have to know how the stocks work, which granted even though that is what the movies about, it’s not very inviting for the average person doesn’t really know about this kind of thing, which is What all of these supposed “best” movies are supposed to be, and yet It receives unanimous praise, even from people who apparently don’t even like movies, Though nonetheless it still ends up bombing.

Like I’ve said before, don’t forget that both blade runner and the Empire strikes back did not receive good reviews from critics or fans when it first came out, only to later be regarded as “overlooked masterpieces”. What happened? How do you know the same thing like again it has happened with certain Disney and other movies as well can’t happen to wish? Especially again when you look at a lot of the criticisms in question, and I personally pointed out some things that only Ibra quite a few other people had noticed as well, but again like I’ve seen with many other movies, you can tell that a lot of these professional critics are emphasizing more on their tiredness and fatigue of these kind of movies, but they have with the third divergent movie allegiant which even though I concur is the weakest out of all the divergent movies, is nowhere near deserving of the hatred that it gets, your critical thinking as when looking at the reviews, all I keep seeing as them complaining that it’s too similar to other movies, acting as if apparently there’s a law that you have to see the so-called “better” movies, when again it is SUBJECTIVE. And going back to Star Wars, you could technically say that it is a rip off, as it is literally more or less a remake of the hidden fortress, the only difference is that more people didn’t have access to and didn’t see it back then, so combined with the fact that it has a lot of faulty things from its overall inconsistent and bland acting to not very clear world building or mythology, only shows that there is something wrong with the people experiencing it, but again it is of course SUBJECTIVE, Which symbolizes freedom, and this kind of attitude that you are presenting, even with the valid points that you were stating, is taking away the freedom.

Ironically, People listening/relying on critics all the time is exactly like the kingdom relying on magnifico, and Asha And her friends trying to bring back that kind of freedom. How fortuitous

[Mooky]

I give up.

[Sotiris]

I think a quick cursory glance of this man’s Twitter feed reveals he is not exactly an unbiased source lol

I also noticed he's a conservative, but since he had nice things to say about Wish, he liked the story and didn't find it 'woke' or anything like that, I figured he'd be honest about his experience. But of course, we can never know for sure. Anecdotal information should always be taken with a grain of salt, anyway. Disney did admit though in a SEC filling that their social goals have alienated some of their consumers, so there's probably some truth to what he said.

Also… I just have to push back against this idea that conservative audiences have always trusted Disney until this moment in time. That’s patently not true. In the 90’s there was a lot of evangelical pushback against Disney.

Sure, but it was a very small minority. If it were true that conservatives in general did not trust Disney back then, Disney wouldn't have been so successful in the '90s.

Anyway, it doesn't seem like Wish is going to have legs at the box office the way Elemental did like some people were predicting.

Disney’s family-friendly “Wish” rounded out the top five with $7.4 million from 3,900 locations in its sophomore outing, declining 63% from its debut. The animated musical fable, about the Wishing Star that so many Disney characters have wished upon, is shaping up to be the studio’s latest underperforming blockbuster in 2023. It cost $200 million and has amassed just $41 million in North America and $81 million worldwide to date.

Source: https://variety.com/2023/film/box-offic ... 235819664/

[UmbrellaFish]

Also… I just have to push back against this idea that conservative audiences have always trusted Disney until this moment in time. That’s patently not true. In the 90’s there was a lot of evangelical pushback against Disney.

Sure, but it was a very small minority. If it were true that conservatives in general did not trust Disney back then, Disney wouldn't have been so successful in the '90s.

I do think, like the SEC filing you mentioned, the conservative backlash has had some effect (I mean, the governor of FL attacking WDW is insane) but I don’t think you can attribute all of Disney’s woes to pissing off conservative audiences. They are a pretty fickle audience for Disney IMO.

I don’t think Wish’s success rested on appealing to the acolytes of say, Ben Shapiro (remember his hate for the Barbie movie this summer? That did gangbusters box office). Wish has been left in the dust by all audiences. I continue to believe Disney+ has been Disney’s greatest hurdle to box office success.

[Pokenonbinary]

Maybe Wish’s failure at the box office will encourage them to spend more time working on the story of the next Disney film and it will be much better!

Or maybe they’ll misinterpret it as people not being interested in more stylized looking animated films or films that aren’t sequels and pump out standard CGI looking sequels forever. Part of the reason why they’ve been doing live action remakes or sequels is because anytime they’ve done risky live action projects, it’s blown up in their faces.

I hope they get that idea! We are not interested in that ugly animation style at all

[Elladorine]

I continue to believe Disney+ has been Disney’s greatest hurdle to box office success.

I agree with you, although I’ve seen a lot of arguments pointing out that streaming availability hasn’t slowed down some theatrical releases made by other studios. I think Disney’s animated films are often a exception to the rule though; before the days of home video they were some of the only films that would get theatrical reissues every so many years, and when the VHS format became popular their films were often the only ones families felt the need to “own.”

I have the impression that a lot of Disney+ subscribers want the service so they can have easy access to the DACs and the other family-friendly content for their kids. Some might even see letting their kids browse the app a far better alternative to other device usage (YouTube, Tik-Tok, games, etc.).

These days, theatrical films need to be an event, an experience that gets you excited to go. And it’s hard for their main target audience to get excited when we all know you can avoid the crowds and expense by waiting a couple months to watch it on their Disney+ library, which probably feels similar to owning a library of VHS tapes back in the day. It certainly doesn’t help that they’ve dumped several theatrical releases directly on the service, regardless if the pandemic’s to blame, and that Frozen II’s early Disney+ release has normalized such a short waiting period between the two.

[UmbrellaFish]

Elladorine, I wonder if Disney’s name recognition isn’t also a detriment in a way. The average movie goer probably doesn’t know which studio produced and distributed Barbie and Oppenheimer and what streaming service they’re aligned with, but you see that castle or that lamp at the start of the trailer and you know the movie will eventually end up on Disney+.

I wonder if, instead of building Disney+ from the ground up, if they’d just bought out Hulu earlier… and it became the destination for Disney and Pixar products, if that would have made a difference. If Hulu was what it is, plus all of Disney+’s content… but under the “Hulu” name. Maybe it would have taken longer for audiences to catch on that “Disney films go to Hulu” than it did “Disney films go to Disney+.”

Idk