Miscellaneous Film/TV Discussion

[Farerb]

I watched the film adaptation of the Phantom of the Opera and I didn't like it at all. It seems like Joel Schumacher didn't really love the musical or even cared for it. It is such a shame and a missed opportunity. Fortunately there's the far superior live recording of the 25th anniversary at the Royal Albert hall.

[Avaitor]

Okay, so now for my TV post.

Every year since 2002, the Television Critics Association has given out the Heritage Award during their awards ceremony, in which the celebrate an iconic series. At first it often went to either a show that ended its run, or a long-running work which is worth celebrating. In recent years, they've dug a bit further into the past. My goal has been to watch as many of these in full as I can, for the most part. Partly in hopes to do a retrospective series on each scripted series, partly to familiarize myself with the television lexicon as much as possible. To give you an idea of what's won and my progress with them:

2002- The Simpsons
2003- Buffy the Vampire Slayer
2004- 60 Minutes
2005- Nightline
2006- The West Wing
2007- The Sopranos
2008- The Wire
2009- ER
2010- M*A*S*H
2011- The Dick Van Dyke Show
2012- Cheers
2013- All in the Family
2014- Saturday Night Live
2015- Late Show/Late Night with David Letterman
2016- The Mary Tyler Moore Show
2017- Seinfeld
2018- Friends
2019- Deadwood

Now, I've been watching The Simpsons for decades, but by that I mean the classics- I haven't caught up with the show in a decade and don't see a need to. Those first 8 or 9 seasons are justly considered some of the best TV ever made.

Buffy is probably my favorite show of all time, full stop. I've seen it all the way through two or three times, and still occasionally come back to some of my favorite episodes. I'm also a fan of Angel, which I've watched once or twice. I'll admit that they both have problems and rocky points, and that Joss Whedon has plenty of faults in his writing, but I'd still highly recommend both.

Since 60 Minutes and Nightline are magazine shows mostly timed to specific airings, I don't see a need to watch through either show's vast histories.

I've seen The West Wing the whole way through, and I think that it's an inconsistent show, and in some ways almost foreign to today's television landscape. The first two seasons are some of the best television that I've seen, and feature plenty of Aaron Sorkin's best material, but I think he peaks with the flawless season 2 finale "Two Cathedrals", and hits a heavy bump in the road with the season 3 semi-premiere 9/11 episode. It recovers a little after that, but while there's plenty of good in the next two seasons, it's never the same. The first Sorkin-less season is rough, but it does get better in the last two years when it introduces Santos and Vinick, almost finding a second renaissance near the end.

Now The Sopranos honestly surprised me a little. I was expecting a very good show, but I wasn't expecting it to be as consistently enjoyable as it was. Maybe not entirely consistent- the first and fourth seasons are uneven, and the front half of season 6 is a little padded IMO- but it really is as good as most say it is, and the occasional episode rewatches I do hold up quite well. I've seriously thought about watching it in full again just for fun.

Many call The Wire the best show ever made, which I was mostly onboard with when I first watched it years ago. But I'll admit that over the past couple of years, I've grown weary of the constant need for heavy serialization which this was a big proponent of, and unlike a lot of the other shows here, you can't just pick up a random episode to rewatch and enjoy, which hurts its longevity IMO. I do also think that the first season takes a little bit of time to find its groove, and that the last season isn't all that, but those are more traditionally accepted criticisms. But seasons 2-4 are among the best examples of novelization in television ever made, even if this isn't the exact blueprint for prestige TV as much as it was a few years ago.

I've been watching ER on and off for over 5 years now, and paused at season 13 around a year ago. I do intend to get to the last two seasons at some point, but I'm also not in the biggest rush. I really did enjoy the front half of the show, but it started losing itself the more its original cast left, and lost its more classical drama for (admittedly still sometimes effective) melodrama. I don't really see a point to watch past when Anthony Edwards exits the show at the absolute latest (you can even leave when Julianna Margulies exits and not miss much), but those early episodes hit a perfect balance between serialized and episodic TV that still holds up. I seriously think that if it wasn't dropped from syndication so early and if it didn't take so long to hit streaming (the show only came on Hulu two years ago), it would still be as discussed and cherished with people my age the same way The West Wing is.

It's funny to watch M*A*S*H all the way through with modern eyes, and see how much the show changed over the years. Not just with its cast and even as it transitioned to a sitcom with dramatic moments to a straight dramedy, but in its political views. The earlier seasons were more critical of war and the US' involvement in foreign affairs than it was by the end of its run, especially once the show ran into the Reagan years. I think the show was at its best around seasons 3-5 or 6, when it had the best balance as a sitcom with a strong humanitarian side. But it's mostly enjoyable until around season 9. After that it mostly loses its charm, some highlights (like the finale) aside.

The Dick Van Dyke Show is shockingly funny nowadays, and is slightly more bingeable than most of its contemporaries. I've also been watching I Love Lucy on and off over the years, but that's a little harder for me to swallow in chunks of more than a couple of episodes at a time, while Dick Van Dyke I could easily digest a bunch of episodes in a row. It's a terrific balance of slapstick, wit, and heart that is still admirable to this day. There are a couple of episodes that don't really hold up, but I think it's mostly enjoyable throughout, and still among the all-time best sitcoms.

Cheers remains strong and pretty much essential throughout its entire 11 year run, which is not an easy thing to say for most TV shows. It changed itself in smart ways when it needed to, evolving from a dynamic romantic comedy with a strong supporting cast to a terrific ensemble comedy. But it did have problems throughout its run. The show wasn't very nice to Diane after a certain point, particularly around the time the writers became visually tired of her and Sam's romantic arc. Season 4 is especially rough in that regard, and while the fifth is an improvement in a lot of ways, it's really not kind to her as a character. Even when she leaves, the show will continue to throw digs at her that come off as pretty mean. It'd be one thing if the series was struggling without her, but it arguably became even more popular after she left. And while Rebecca started off as a worthy replacement, they did dumb her down a lot after a certain point, and increased her selfishness for the worst, while also making Sam an increasingly dumb horndog.

But there's still plenty of good here. Those first two seasons when Sam and Diane were a fresh item had terrific chemistry and writing. The addition of Frasier in season 3 was a similarly good call, not only for Sam and Diane's story, but also towards the cast. And when the show dropped Sam's tired pursuit of Rebecca, it allowed for the two of them to become genuine friends that he could have never been with Diane. The last season even showed attempts for Sam to better his character, some of which would be revealed to be spoiled in Frasier (which I'm now watching on and off in full- it's also quite good). And the show just has terrific character writing and some of the best direction in a sitcom throughout its run, which all still hold up, even despite a couple of more questionable elements. I didn't grow up watching the show, so I can say this as a fairly fresh fan.

A lot of the most iconic All in the Family episodes are from the second season (such as the appearances of Maude and Sammy Davis Jt's episode), which says a lot about when its best era was. I thought that it was a highly enjoyable show during the first few seasons, but it does become tired and lose its punch around seasons 4 and 5. It somehow regains some of its bite during its 8th and eventual penultimate season, when the show decided to go all out for what was meant to be its last. It really should've ended there, but the last season wasn't all that bad, even if losing Gloria and Mike was tough. Little Stephanie was a decent enough addition (and fun fact, she grew up to be a part of The New Radicals and wrote songs for Natasha Bedingfield), but its best years were behind it. I didn't both with Archie Bunker's Place, aside from the episodes where Edith dies, and have only sampled some of the spin-offs. While this show still has value for its timeliness, I don't think his other material is as strong. Although I do really like the One Day at a Time remake.

I've been intermittently familiar with all eras of SNL from over the years, but I can't always call myself a big fan of the show. Not all of its jokes and characters land for me, but there's plenty that I do like, especially from the OG cast, which is what I've been wanting to focus on. I have all of those DVD sets, but I only watched up to season 3. It took me a while to find seasons 4 and 5, which I hope to get to soon.

I've seen some of Letterman's skits and interviews over the years, enough to understand his importance to the late night scene. But this is another example that I don't plan to heavily pursue.

I had watched The Mary Tyler Moore Show in full a couple of years prior to when it finally won here, and was eagerly awaiting for its day. I'd go as far as to call it the best sitcom ever made. The cast is damn-near perfect, and like Cheers, was able to redefine itself well when it needed to. Losing its most popular character in the middle of its run should have been its death sentence, but somehow the writers took this chance to cut back on the weakest part of the show- the episodes involving Mary's dating life, where basically every time her potential suitor was at fault, as nothing could interfere with Mary's blissful perfection- and took the chance to focus on its other strengths. It also has some earnestly effective character development over the course of the show, moreso than you'd expect from a sitcom that's going to turn 50 very soon. Highly recommended.

Seinfeld is another series that I've seen in full before winning. I think it's a great show, but I'd hesitate to call it the best of its kind. I think there was a change for the worst during the sixth season when it changed directors, and the pacing became off as a result. Even during its best times, it had some cringey moments ("Not that there's anything wrong with that"). But the plotting can be terrific, and the joke writing is sensational for most episodes. I can see why it's such a syndication favorite, as it's a good show to rewatch at random. This was never a show that I watched with my family- my mom and sister hated it, so I discovered it on my own.

Now Friends, that's a show my family loves a lot, but I've never been that impressed. It has some funny moments, but I feel like I've seen and heard them all so many times. It's also just so darn loud. Even Seinfeld or How I Met Your Mother, which is another show that I discovered somewhat on my own and cherish (even if I'm still mad at its ending) can shut up occasionally. But someone on Friends (usually Phoebe) is always using their outside voice inside.

But I realized that I hadn't seen a whole lot of it, so I started watching it on and off a year or so ago when it was still on Netflix. I made it through season 5 before it left, and now I've watched a handful of season 6 ever since HBO Max started. I can see the appeal of the show, and why it's still something even the next generation picks up. The show has a good balance between storyarcs and individual episodes- you're rewarded for watching in full, but most episodes have their own distinct stories to recognize on their own after the fact- and it's easy to relate to any given character at any time. Someone's always down on their luck or are going through a relatable change at a given point during the show. But I still can name a dozen sitcoms that I'd rather watch instead, which is why I only do an episode or two at a time.

And a lot of jokes don't hold up. There's a lot of homophobic, transphobic, fatphobic jokes throughout (we get it, Monica was fat as a kid- it's not that funny). This is true about a lot of other shows at any given time, but it gets pretty uncomfortable here. I recently hit an episode where Joey is embracing traditionally feminine activities with his roommate, and the joke is that Chandler finds it demeaning, and makes some cruel jokes about it. Yikes.

I've only made it through the first season of Deadwood thus far, conveniently before it won its award last year. I think that I was trying to play catch up with the movie, but it took me a while to find the other two seasons on DVD. I know that it's streaming and all, but I didn't have HBO Max at the time, and I'm more of a physical media person, anyway. I did mostly like the first season, although I didn't quite fall in love with the show the same way I did with The Sopranos or The Wire by that point. But I did especially love the finale, and how it wrapped up a lot of the season's plots, especially Reverend Smith's story. I've been focusing on other things, but I hope to get to season 2 soon.

I wasn't sure if there would be a 2020 awards ceremony, since the TCA summer tour is canceled, but I've seen a couple of my favorite TV critics on Twitter mention that the nomination process has begun, so it looks like it shall. Nowadays, they don't announce nominations, and so we won't know the winner until the day of the awards. We'll see what's next!

[Farerb]

Buffy is my favorite show as well. I watched more than I can remember. It's so sad that HD transfer was so bad.

I like Friends for what it is, but honestly some of the stuff there didn't age well, and sometimes the characters are less endearing than what I used to remember.

I used to watched How I Met Your Mother since I was in the 8th grade through college. I used to think it was fine, but I rewatched it recently and thought it was awful and couldn't understand why I watched it in the first place. My older brother told me back then that the show wasn't funny at all and I didn't understand why he thought that, but I do now. Something about it is very immature and I guess it doesn't speak to adults as it did to teenagers with all their dumb jokes.

[Disney Duster]

Thank you Avaitor for that post that tells me how good TV really can be! I mean, I love TV, but I guess never thought about how prestigious it can be! I read the whole post, glad I did! Nice to see what you loved and what you didn't. Thanks farerb for your post and opinions, too! Farerb, I like The Phantom of the Opera movie for the viusals and music but if you really think the director didn't even like the original show and that's why it sucks that's a real shame.

[Disney's Divinity]

The only shows I've seen a great deal of from that list are All in the Family and Saturday Night Live. I haven't seen all of either, but that's simply because there are so many episodes. Thanks to reruns on LOGO and several other channels for the former and on MTV for the latter. I really only enjoy AitF for Jean Stapleton, tbh, although Carroll O'Conner is a great actor; I always hated Gloria and the son-in-law, they were so annoying. I have seen a lot of M*A*S*H from back when it aired on Hallmark, although I wouldn't say I loved it exactly? It's not bad. I've seen a few seasons' worth of The Mary Tyler Moore Show and some episodes of The Dick Van Dyke Show, but most everything else, if I've seen any episodes at all, it was a random case of them being on the TV when something I had been watching went off.

I've tried Friends, Seinfield, and Cheers. Never could get into any of those. I really tried with Cheers simply because Kirstie Alley's in the later seasons and I've always liked her. Plus, for a long time I couldn't get into Frasier until it suddenly just clicked after many episodes and became hilarious to me, so I hoped the same would happen with Cheers and it didn't. Also funny is that I love The New Adventures of Old Christine, and yet I never can get into Seinfield either. Aside from Marge and the baby and the corporate guy (I forget the character's name), I don't really like anything about The Simpsons. I've always wanted to watch The West Wing (simply to see Kathryn Joosten) and Buffy (because people always rave about it), and haven't had the chance or taken the time, rather.

David Letterman was alright. I'll be honest, I'm not crazy about late night shows. By that time of day, I'm not really watching TV, I usually put a DVD or a game on. I sometimes watch James Corden's carpool karaoke on YouTube. I think the only one I've ever really liked was Craig Ferguson; not to say I don't like the people themselves--Corden, Kimmel, Meyers, O'Brien are all nice. There are other shows that aren't really "Late Shows," but I always thought of them in a similar way, that I've watched over the years. Like The Soup with Joel McHale, Fashion Police when Joan Rivers was alive (I didn't like anyone on there other than her and George), The Daily Show (Jon Stewart years), and Full Frontal w/ Samantha Bee.

Anyway, as an aside, I'm not sure where I read it (I hope it wasn't already posted here on DVDizzy), but apparently a Daria spinoff is being created that centers on the Jodie character. Some have said it may have been partly inspired by the murder of George Floyd, since the Daria theme song was "You're Standing on My Neck." Daria did always deal with issues in a subtle, not-in-your-face way, so I'm looking forward to it.

[JeanGreyForever]

I watched the film adaptation of the Phantom of the Opera and I didn't like it at all. It seems like Joel Schumacher didn't really love the musical or even cared for it. It is such a shame and a missed opportunity. Fortunately there's the far superior live recording of the 25th anniversary at the Royal Albert hall.

See, I was introduced to the musical from the film so I've always liked the film and have never understood why pretty much 99% of the musical fans hate it. I do love the musical as well though and own a Blu-Ray copy of the Royal Albert Hall performance.

[JeanGreyForever]

I like Buffy a lot although it's never been my favorite. I was always more partial to Charmed which I saw years before I ever watched Buffy. Buffy has better writing that's true, but I think Joss Whedon is overrated anyway and not as big a feminist icon as he likes to claim to be. Charmed seasons 1-4 are golden, all the Prue years plus Paige's first season because it wrapped up a lot of plotlines left over with Prue. The show went downhill in Season 5 when they focused more on putting the actresses, particularly Alyssa Milano, in the skimpiest outfits they could find.

I knew M*A*S*H was a popular show but I had no idea it ran for 9 seasons. Not surprised it changed during the Reagan years.

I Love Lucy is on Hulu I think so I do want to watch that because of the Will & Grace tribute episode.

I've never seen Cheers but that's a show I've always wanted to watch because it was made by the same people who created Friends. And I think a lot of actors from Cheers made guest appearances in Friends. Friends is one of my all time favorite shows and I've seen all the episodes more than once especially considering how often it's replayed on TV. I agree with you though that a lot of Friends hasn't aged well especially when it comes to sexuality and gender. I never got into How I Met Your Mother when it was airing but I've seen a few episodes since it ended and it's actually quite funny. I really like Neil Patrick Harris anyway.

[Avaitor]

@ farerb- First of all, I agree about Schumacher's Phantom. It's... not good lol I still really like Lindsay Ellis' take on it.

And yes, the HD transfer for BtVS is pathetic. It's wild that for as popular as the show still is, no one at Disney/Fox seems interested in giving it the restoration it deserves.

I think that part of my problem with Friends is the excessive lack of character development. The characters are still mostly the same as they were from the beginning, aside from Rachel, who seems to have actually adapted into the grown-up world. Monica and Ross seem to be growing a little bit now that they're dating, but they're still pretty similar to where they once were. The others are pretty stagnant.

And honestly, I think that HIMYM still has some impactful things to say as an adult, but it's already showing its age. It definitely gets a little more immature in the back half, but that's true for a lot of sitcoms. The kind of jokes that really hold it back from me are some majorly transphobic bits, like how Robin was "raised like a boy". And Barney is kind of uncomfortable in hindsight. He was always a little controversial, but I think because Neil Patrick Harris played him so well, he got a pass. But in the #MeToo era, it's a little harder to laugh at his perverted bits.

Also, he traded a woman for a car once. What?

@Disney's Divinity- I'm sorry that the shows that you tried to click with never clicked. Comedy is subjective, and it happens often. I've never been able to gel with The Office or Brooklyn Nine-Nine, for instance, despite having many friends who love both, and liking the casts on both. The former was especially tough, because I tended to like the other shows on NBC's Thursday night, but would either suffer with The Office, or tune it out to do homework.

Oh yeah, I heard about that spin-off. Actually, I think it's been making the rounds for a while, but it sounds like it's pretty official now. It's unfortunate if that line from the intro inspired it, but I'm all for it being made. Jodie was an underrated character, and I think that should work out well.

And I've never been a diehard talk show fan, either. My mom really likes Kimmel, who I think is okay, but wouldn't watch on my own. He's better than Fallon, at least. I did really like Stewart and Colbert when they were on Comedy Central, and I think Colbert still has his moments on CBS, but it's not the same. Jon Oliver and Samantha Bee are also pretty good.

@JeanGreyForever- I'll admit, I've always been partially devoted to Whedon's works. His shows were important to my formative years, and they still are important to me. I'm also a fan of his Astonishing X-Men run and like his Avengers films, even a chunk of Age of Ultron. But he's not the pioneering feminist that he claimed to be, that's for sure. And he isn't perfect, either. His leaked Wonder Woman script is pretty bad, he ruined Runaways, and while it's a favorite to many, I don't care very much for Cabin in the Woods. It's not nearly as clever or insightful as it thinks it is, and it shows what was also one of the biggest problems with Buffy- he's not very well-versed in horror. He gets a pass with BtVS because he's pretty strong with vampire lore, but with Cabin, it really feels like he hadn't seen a horror movie since the slasher boom of the 80's.

My sister got me into Buffy, and it's one of the few shows we really got on with together past childhood, along with The OC. So those shows are special to me for that reason, and I have her DVDs of BtVS and Angel. We tried Charmed way back when, buying the first season from Target, but we couldn't get into it at all. I'll admit, it doesn't seem like my thing so much, so I'm not sure if I will get to it.

Oh, M*A*S*H actually ran for 11 seasons. I'm sorry if my post made it sound like it only ran for 9. I just only really like the first 9 seasons or so, and that's being generous.

You should give Lucy a shot! Like I said, I think it's better in smaller doses, but it was made almost 70 years ago. The idea of binge-watching TV was unheard of, so that's not how it was meant to be watched. A couple of episode at a time are pretty fun, though!

The Friends creators weren't involved with Cheers. I checked, and the creators of Friends never even worked on Cheers. James Burrows, who was a co-creator of Cheers, and is considered one of the best sitcom directors of all time, did direct for it a little bit though, so that may be what you're thinking of? He also directed a bit for Will & Grace, among a bunch of other shows. I think he directed the pilot for almost every CBS sitcom over the past as many years aside from HIMYM, which was mostly shot by Pam Fryman, another of the great sitcom directors IMO. She also shot some Friends.

[JeanGreyForever]

I agree that Monica and Ross don't really grow up and the same is especially true for Phoebe. Joey tries a little to grow, especially in his relationship with Rachel, but that doesn't last long. I think they also reverted him back to what he was to set up the Joey spinoff. However, I'd argue Chandler changes the most because he was completely afraid of commitment at the beginning but he really matures by the end. The pure jokester from the first few seasons would not have been able to stay in a relationship with Monica otherwise and she develops him more than he develops her.

To be honest, I think Whedon's Astonishing X-Men run is highly overrated and I never got the appeal. The 2000s were the worst X-Men era imo (although the 2010s are basically tied) and because of Whedon's popularity, Marvel shoved his Astonishing X-Men down everyone's throats. I actually did like Age of Ultron besides the Natasha/Banner romance subplot which I didn't think was as bad as everyone else, but I wasn't exactly rooting for them together either. I never read his Wonder Woman script but I remember it was dragged on social media and everyone exposed him. It couldn't have been as bad as the Duel of the Fates draft for Star Wars: Episode XI though lol. Did Whedon work on the Runaways show on Hulu? I never saw Cabin because of how it was critically panned so I'm glad I didn't miss out on anything. Buffy surprisingly has aged pretty well unlike some of his other works.

If you're big Buffy and Angel fans I can see why you wouldn't like Charmed very much. It's not really as serious especially towards the second half of the show when Rose McGowan comes along. The first few seasons still try to be dark and meaningful rather than superficial fluff. If you didn't like the first season, it's possible you'd prefer the light-hearted tone of the last few seasons but I think they're inferior and as a Buffy fan, I think you'd probably agree.

Oh thanks for clarifying about M*A*S*H* and how long it really was. Wow, 11 seasons is super long although Grey's Anatomy has it beat lol.

Some shows in general weren't really meant to be binge-watched and I think that's true for a lot of sitcoms as well. I tried that with Will & Grace and I can watch a few in a row but I couldn't go all night.

Maybe I'm misremembering about Cheers then. I just remember there was sorta a Friends reunion on TV a few years back and the main producer of the show apparently had dabbled in all the popular sitcoms from over the years like Big Bang Theory, Seinfeld, Will & Grace, etc. so I think Cheers was brought up. That's how I first heard of it anyway.

[Farerb]

I also liked Charmed, though not as much as Buffy. I liked seasons 1-4 as well when it actually had a plot and the characters were likable. Piper and Phoebe became self centered and unlikeable and a lot of people attribute it to Holly and Alyssa becoming producers since season 5, but I also dislike Brad Kern and the way he took over Burge's show.

As for Whedon, I used to watch his other shows as well, though I didn't think they were as good as Buffy. I liked the first two seasons of Angel because it had a neo-noir feeling, but I didn't like the rest of the seasons that much. I agree that his feminist views haven't really been updated since then and you can see instances in Buffy that haven't aged very well, like the "I'm pretty but don't realize it" trope or the bisexuality erasure. I still like the show, and I actually recently purchased the digital SD version from Google Play, mainly because I got tired of changing the discs and those tedious menus, unfortunately the digital version has seasons 4-7 in 16:9 instead of 4:3 (like the UK DVD).
I also wanted to mention that back when I was in school I liked the high school seasons more, but now as an adult I appreciate seasons 5-7 more, especially season 6, which I believe was ahead of its time.

Other shows I used to watch are:
Gilmore Girls - which was really good until the creator decided to just trash it in season 6 because of feuds with the network. I had a chance to revisit it because it's on Netflix so it's comfortable.
The OC - I remember that I liked season 1, but the others weren't that interesting to me.
One Tree Hill - this show has a tendency to get really overdramatic about small high school problems (like having your locker next to your ex's), though I guess it was fine, but few years ago it was revealed that the creator and showrunner sexually harassed actresses and women who worked on the show.
I haven't seen both The OC and One Tree Hill in a very long time, I wonder what I'd feel about them now.

Another show I liked back then was Grey's Anatomy. I know this show is still on, but it's barely recognizable anymore and only 3 actors from the original cast remained, so I stopped watching it a long time ago.

[Disney Duster]

I liked Cabin in the Woods. From what I remember it was great. I haven't seen it in a while, but I remember it being good.

[blackcauldron85]

What are some of your favorite Buffy episodes? How do you feel about the musical episode? It used to be one of my favorite shows when it aired, but I haven't seen it since it stopped airing new episodes years ago.

We watched the pilot episode of The West Wing (it was long I believe) in my Film Story class in college; do you feel that the writing is some of the best on TV?

I've never seen ER, but I used to watch re-runs of Grey's Anatomy years ago; are they similar?

Yesssssss, I LOVE The Dick Van Dyke Show. It's one of my favorites. I agree that the humor absolutely holds up.

I haven't seen Cheers since I was a kid, so I didn't appreciate it as much as I'm sure I would now, but Frasier is such a terrific show!

Yes, I agree that a great thing with Seinfeld is that you can watch any random episode and it still makes sense.

How I Met Your Mother is AMAZING!!! Yes, I can see how Barney and Ted can be seen as problematic towards women, but I acknowledge that and appreciate the show for what it is. I love their friendships.

The New Adventures of Old Christine-- YEEEEESSS, DD!!!! I haven't seen it in years but that's one of the best shows!!!

I read that a Jodie Daria spinoff is coming. Daria was great, so hopefully this new one will be just as good.

GILMORE GIRLS!! One of my all-time favorites!!!!

farerb- I agree about The OC's first season being its best.

Does anyone else here like Reba? That's another that I used to watch but haven't seen in FOREVER. I wish I had money to buy all these shows that I had forgotten about!

[Disney's Divinity]

My family watched Reba back when it first came on, and I still catch re-runs all the time. The show thrived in its later seasons in part because Barbra-Jean evolved as the series goes along, and she's honestly the funniest part about that show for me along with Reba herself.

As far as TNAoOC, I first tried it because I'm a big fan of Wanda Sykes, but I ended up liking nearly all the characters / actors. Barb and Matthew are my favorites for sure. I recognized New Christine immediately from Will & Grace (the episode when Jack takes over his acting class from Zandra); I was happy she got a bigger role in a sitcom. The show is so funny to me.

The memoriam at the Daytime Emmy's made me realize how many actors who played small, background roles on a bunch of sitcoms over the years passed and I didn't know. There were several worth mentioning (Orson Bean was another one I hadn't heard about), but Mary Patrick Gleason was the one that took me most by surprise. Apparently she passed away from cancer at the beginning of this month.

[blackcauldron85]

^ Yes, I definitely agree about Barbara-Jean being one of the best parts of the show!!!

*edit* Wikipedia had to help me out; years ago there were a couple shows I'd watch in re-runs and did not remember the names of them but I always like watching them: Yes, Dear (with Mike O'Malley) and Rules of Engagement (with Patrick Warburton and David Spade). I always thought they were funny and now I want to watch them!

[Farerb]

What are some of your favorite Buffy episodes? How do you feel about the musical episode? It used to be one of my favorite shows when it aired, but I haven't seen it since it stopped airing new episodes years ago.

In order of release:

Prophecy Girl
Surprise/Innocence
Passion
Becoming pt 1-2
Doppelgangland
Enemies
Graduation Day pt 1-2
Hush
This Year's Girl/Who Are You
Blood Ties
The Body
Forever
Tough Love
The Gift
Once More, With Feeling
Seeing Red
Villains
Two To Go
Grave
Conversations With Dead People
Lies My Parents Told Me
D-irty Girls
Empty Places
Touched
End Of Days
Chosen

By the way did you know you can't post the phrase "D-irty Girls" in the forums?

[Avaitor]

@ JeanGreyForever- Alright, I'll keep that in mind with Chandler as I watch the show. He does seem to have grown a little while dating Monica, being more trusting and open, but he hasn't done that a whole lot yet, I don't think. I do think that pairing them together was a good fit, and has helped the show, even though I'm noticing a decline in season 6. So far, the best material was in seasons 4 and 5.

Whedon hasn't worked on the Runaways show, but took over from Brian K Vaughan in the comics. I really liked BKV's run, but Whedon did not keep that quality going IMO.

farerb- There is a bit of a noir-ish vibe with Angel's first season. I don't think all of those episodes are great, as some come off as procedural wannabes, but there's a charm to the earlier episodes that I think is missing from Buffy's earlier episodes, and also from the concurrently running fourth season. I do like the show's drift into story driven material later on, aside from the fourth season, which was a hot mess.

But the show isn't nearly as good as BtVS. It doesn't have as strong of a supporting cast, and Angel just isn't as dynamic of a lead as Buffy is. The show works as a compliment of sorts to BtVS, being more about adulthood vs the original's adolescence, but I don't think that its themes stick quite as well. There's a reason that only about half of the people who pick up Buffy go to Angel, even despite how often the two shows are connected towards each other.

As for Whedon, I've seen posts compare him to JK Rowling, saying that while the works of both could easily be seen as progressive for their time, their flaws are all the more apparent by today's standards, and neither artist have especially changed for the times. That said, while JKR is destroying her legacy now, I do admire Whedon for mostly shutting up and staying in his lane in the past couple of years. Not that his bad sides aren't still glaring- you can easily list off the problematic themes that come in his work, he was terrible to his wife, and if you look up what happened with Charisma Carpenter in Angel, it's not pretty- but he's been able to stand on thin ice for a while without falling in. We'll see if he can stay afloat when his new show lands.

I will say that season 6 of BtVS hits differently the further we dissect toxic masculinity. Warren's a different kind of antagonist for the show, almost too brutally real sometimes. And I really do like how the show tries to address Buffy's post-resuscitation depression. On the other hand, I think they could've handled Willow's descent into dark magic a little bit differently.

I've been wanting to watch Gilmore Girls. I never grew up or got to it, but it I know it's an important show for many. I know that the last season was plagued by the showrunners walking out, and the Netflix revival isn't beloved either, but a lot of show's later, critically panned runs tend to come off a little fuzzier years after the fact. Maybe I'll like them?

My sister liked One Tree Hill and Grey's Anatomy, but they never did much for me. She might still be watching the latter. I did watch The OC with her, but only really liked the first and last seasons. It's no coincidence that I disliked when it became the Mischa Barton show- she was easily the worst character and actress. I really liked Seth and Summer, as well as his parents. Seth clicked with me because of his nerdy tendencies, and I had a big thing for Rachel Bilson and liked them together. Ryan was just okay to me, though. I've been considering rewatching some of it on HBO Max.

@ blackcauldron85-

Favorite BtVS episodes, by season-

Season 1- "Out of Mind, Out of Sight"
Season 2- "Passion"
Season 3- "Earshot"
Season 4- "Restless"
Season 5- "The Body"
Season 6- "Once More With Feeling"
Season 7- "Selfless"

I think there's a good mix of standard choices, and less common picks. As you can tell, I'm pro-OMWF. It's still the standard for musical episodes, IMO.

The writing for The West Wing shows Sorkin's strengths- he's very passionate and fast-paced. His best material can read like a breakneck script for a Frank Capra screwball comedy, and that does make for some good TV. But it also shows his weaker points- he ain't subtle at all. His punches don't always land, and you can tell where he needed a revision before submitting his work in. There's some very strong material in here, but it's not a completely smooth ride.

From what I recall, Grey's is more melodramatic than ER, and is more of a straight-forwarded soap opera. ER is kind of like a cross between a serialized soap and an episodic procedural, with how it frames its cases and the character's stories. It's also a lot more cinematic, which makes sense since Spielberg was a producer early on for it- the show's pilot was originally written as a feature by Michael Criterion, which Spielberg bought and suggested turning it into a show. ER is more of my thing overall, but I can see the case for either.

[Farerb]

Oh yeah you just reminded me all the awfulness with Charisma Carpenter and I actually heard he was awful to SMG in the last season of Buffy as well. So much for being a feminist.

Yes, I agree that Angel had weaker episodes in season 1-2, truthfully I don't really watch Angel often except the one Buffy episode and the two Faith episodes from season 1.

Gilmore Girls is a great show and even if the last two seasons are weaker than the earlier ones, they are still fine, I do recommend the show.

[JeanGreyForever]

I also liked Charmed, though not as much as Buffy. I liked seasons 1-4 as well when it actually had a plot and the characters were likable. Piper and Phoebe became self centered and unlikeable and a lot of people attribute it to Holly and Alyssa becoming producers since season 5, but I also dislike Brad Kern and the way he took over Burge's show.

One Tree Hill - this show has a tendency to get really overdramatic about small high school problems (like having your locker next to your ex's), though I guess it was fine, but few years ago it was revealed that the creator and showrunner sexually harassed actresses and women who worked on the show.
I haven't seen both The OC and One Tree Hill in a very long time, I wonder what I'd feel about them now.

I remember those criticisms about Alyssa and Holly after they became producers starting with Season 5. Phoebe was called PhoebMe by the fandom during that time because everything was about her. Kern himself was especially misogynistic and responsible for firing Shannen unceremoniously while the show was on break and he didn't even do it to her face. He also refused to bring her back for the finale because he was so threatened by her.

I always wanted to watch One Tree Hill (mainly because I found the actors attractive lol) but yikes about the showrunner and the creator.

@ JeanGreyForever- Alright, I'll keep that in mind with Chandler as I watch the show. He does seem to have grown a little while dating Monica, being more trusting and open, but he hasn't done that a whole lot yet, I don't think. I do think that pairing them together was a good fit, and has helped the show, even though I'm noticing a decline in season 6. So far, the best material was in seasons 4 and 5.

Whedon hasn't worked on the Runaways show, but took over from Brian K Vaughan in the comics. I really liked BKV's run, but Whedon did not keep that quality going IMO.

Chandler from the first few seasons would never have wanted to have a baby and be a father for example, and he definitely wasn't ready for marriage. That was part of the troubles Chandler and Monica had right before they got engaged because it was obvious it was time for them to get married and Monica was worried Chandler wasn't up to that level of commitment which is why she considers going back to Richard. Especially when Richard says he's changed his mind and wants to have children with Monica now.

I never really read Runaways so that's probably why I didn't know Whedon was involved in it. I know it has its fans though especially characters like Molly and Nico.

Oh yeah you just reminded me all the awfulness with Charisma Carpenter and I actually heard he was awful to SMG in the last season of Buffy as well. So much for being a feminist.

Yeah I saw her video panel about that and I can't believe he fired her just because she was pregnant. That should have been warning signs for everyone back then. I didn't hear about his treatment of SMG during the last season but it wouldn't shock me.

[UmbrellaFish]

Game Change

This is a movie about the McCain-Palin campaign which I’ve watched several times. It’s fun if you’re familiar with the personalities portrayed, not just the aforementioned nominees, but their campaign staff later turned TV personalities Steve Schmidt (the protagonist, played by Woody Harrelson with a false tummy) and Nicolle Wallace (Sarah Paulson). In the Trump era, I’ve become more familiar with the real-life Schmidt and it actually makes the over-the-top, patriotic speechifying of Harrleson’s character so much more believable— it’s really just who Steve Schmidt is. I think that’s why I keep rewatching this movie, I get such a kick out of comparing the on-screen characters to the famous real-life people they’re based on.

Otherwise, tbh, it’s not a great movie. The main attraction is watching Julianne Moore nail Sarah Palin’s idiosyncrasies— but clearly the movie has no idea what to do with her. It shows her being a monster to her staff, or being absurdly puritanical, or being absurdly ignorant, or bizarrely more concerned about her standing in Alaska than anything else, but there’s no real depth to the character. There’s no attempt to make us understand why Sarah Palin was like this and just ends up feeling like a carnival sideshow act. Sarah Palin (or should I say, “The Bear” from this year’s Masked Singer) may not have deserved better, but Julianne Moore did.

I will say, rewatching the film now is all the more unsettling. Ed Harris’ John McCain warns Palin after their electoral loss that she is ‘one of the party leaders now and not to get sucked up into the extremist elements of the party.’ Watching this during the Obama era, that felt specific to Palin who was then an ex-Governor making reality TV shows on little known cable networks. Today, well, clearly that was a warning the Republican Party at large should have heeded.

Disclosure

This is a documentary about trans representation in American media from Netflix. I learned a lot of things I never knew before— for example, that some of the earliest films shot featured cross dressing characters and characters who changed genders. I also learned that I’ve seen trans actors on screen my whole life, I just didn’t know they were trans (Sandra Caldwell in The Cheetah Girls, for example, which is a film I need to rewatch)! It just goes to show, LGBT people have always been around, sometimes it just wasn’t our business to know it. But the documentary was also hard to watch— there is an extraordinary amount of media which is dedicated to showing violence against trans people and/or mocking their bodies. It’s so sad and degrading. I teared up a few times watching the documentary, sometimes sad tears, sometimes happy ones.

Visible

Writing about Disclosure reminded me of Apple TV’s docu-series about LGBT representation on TV. I watched it when it premiered back in February so I don’t remember the details, just that I found it very interesting viewing. I may give it a rewatch this month since I have a free Apple TV subscription through November. I recommend it if you already have access to the service.

[JeanGreyForever]

Has anybody here, particularly any Scandinavians or Europeans, watched the Norwegian series Skam? I've become hooked on it recently after discovering it on social media and it's truly one of the most accurate and realistic portrayals of teenagers I've ever seen on TV. I'm so sad that the show is only 4 seasons long when it deserved way more. I know that almost every other country has remade it, often with more seasons, so I think I might catch those as well although I'm not sure what to start off with because I've heard good things about the French, Spanish, and Italian ones.