Song of the South: Too Offensive to Release on DVD?

[2099net]

I'm hardly the most PC of people in general, because I like dark, black humour. As far as I'm concerned, nothing should be taboo for comic subject (as long as its funny - that's when jokes become offensive, when they're just not funny and are simply put in to shock). But while I may like something like Nighty Night, I do accept others may find it offensive and/or upsetting. So you have to let people know the sort of content that they are about to watch. Its as simple as that. It's about context, and putting something into context doesn't have to be painful, demeaning or insulting.

That's how I feel about PC. It would be wrong for a person to use racist language in public, or insult the sick etc. That kind of behaviour can never be acceptable. But, put it in the context of a comedy or drama, such as Archie Bunker (a version of our Alf Garnett), and it is acceptable, because more than anything the joke is ultimately on Archie Bunker (or whoever) and shows their failings as humans, not the failings of the victims of their abuse. In a drama, its often used for dramatic effect.

Because I still enjoy these entertainments with (on the face of it) politically incorrect language doesn't mean I'm anti-PC. In fact, I support PC in "reality", but like anything you can't let it swing too far. Everything is about moderation and respect.

Being offended or insulted may be a fact of life, and yes, people watching something I enjoy may offend them if they stumble across it and see it without the full context, but nobody should have to learn to live with being constantly insulted/offended. We should always do all we can to reduce such events.

Disney could release Song of the South and contextualise it.

Now, according to you a good film has human suffering in it so it shouldn’t matter that the film is about China sweatshops or Iranians or the Russian mafia. Instead they focus on these fluff topics instead of serious issues, which you defend, and we both agree there are more serious things going on out there that could be used in films.

Well, for a film to be popular is has to have good drama and politics (in the old fashioned sense of the word - human interaction) and have something the audience can identify with. Lets face it, the films you say I defend didn't exactly set the box office on fire. Vera Drake for example, a film about a downtrodden backstreet abortionist in the 1950's didn't exactly have everyone rushing to the cinema because they recognised aspects of their own life, or lives they hear about on TV for example, in it.

[UncleEd]

But I don't see truth in advertising as being the same as being PC. Archie Bunker can never be offensive because that character is a satire on the things he talked about. It's a comment on how silly some of these ways of life people held at that time were. The episode where Sammy Davis, Jr. appeared was a prime example. Archie made some comment that Sammy's race was a handicap and had backhanded compliments through that whole show. In the end Sammy sent him that authograph that said "You're the whitest white guy I ever met" and Archie was too dense to get that Sammy was dishing out his own medicine. With All in the Family you know what you get and you should always know what you get.


Why I'm talking about is when groups try to shame you into feeling guilty for liking something that is funny or harmless. On this very site I kind of felt that the More Silly Symphonies review leaned in this area because it called material offesive and implied racism.


"Being offended or insulted may be a fact of life, and yes, people watching something I enjoy may offend them if they stumble across it and see it without the full context, but nobody should have to learn to live with being constantly insulted/offended. We should always do all we can to reduce such events."


I was not saying that anyone should be or deserves to be offended constantly. What I am saying is that today's way of dealing with being offended is crying out "I am offended!" Then trying to silence whatever it was they found offense with or in. In years past people may have been offended by something but they got over it. Today they file a lawsuit and try to cash in. I blame political correctness for this. It is producing a society of big babies who can't deal with being offended or even constructually criticized. When Bill Cosby made his statements on how he feels about the black community as a whole everyone went after Bill because his comments offended them. No one took the time to think about what he said or even rebutt them. No one has made this connection that I'm aware of but now Oprah is getting lots of good pr for opening up a school in South Africa and when asked why she didn't open one in a US black community she said similar things to what Bill had said but because she is Oprah nobody cared. And by the way, if you know anyone in South Africa, it is a place where white people can't own property and are openly descriminated against. Even Oprah's new school is blacks only, isn't it? From the US news you wouldn't even know that there were white folks in SA.


The reason why a film like Vera Drake or Humpback Mountain didn't shatter box office records in the US is because those aren't the kinds of films people want to see. They were designed to be propaganda pieces to sway opinion on values a lot of Americans openly reject. I still say you can have a film with human interaction that isn't political and those are the films people want to see. And if you want to have a political piece, why not have one on the real Roe of Roe V. Wade? You know why they will never do that, because it wouldn't serve their agenda. k up the facts of that case and you'd be surprised at how they're nothing like you'd think they'd be. Yet, by the sheer fame of the name and case you'd think that this would be the first pro abortion story they'd turn to. There's a reason why they don't. You'll see if you really look into it.

[Lars Vermundsberget]

And by the way, if you know anyone in South Africa, it is a place where white people can't own property and are openly descriminated against.

Are you sure? If that's indeed the case things have changed a lot more in South Africa than it had the last time I heard about it.

As for being/feeling offended: If one feels offended one should simply start by looking into oneself.

[UncleEd]

When I was in college I knew several classmates from South Africa and they all told me this. In fact the white ones told me things are so bad there that many of the white South Africans are trying to get out. One of them told me that they knew people who came to the US and put down they were African Americans and were deported for being dishonest. But honestly, if you come from Africa I'd say you have more right to be an African American than anyone born in America. Why should it only mean skin color? The Jamaccan students at my college HATED being called African Americans too. They were like "Dude, we're not even from Africa, Mon. We're just black!" and people would be shocked.


"As for being/feeling offended: If one feels offended one should simply start by looking into oneself."


I'll go one further. If you feel offended by something on TV or in a film then JUST DON'T LOOK! No one is forcing anyone to watch anything and if Song of the South is ever released again no one is forcing anyone to rent it, see it, or buy it. People need to take responsibility for their own actions on examples like this and that is why I say it seems like some people are out LOOKING to be offended.


I'll throw this one out there since it's related to SOTS in a way. Should the Confederate flag be censored from display as a racist symbol when it's part of American history? The excuse given is that it has Klan ties, however, every photo or footage I've ever seen of the Klan pree 1960's has them with an American flag. Therefore, I'd say that it doesn't have the Klan ties popular opinion suggests. I feel that these southern people who want to remember people who died in the Civil War should be allowed to display that flag since it was the flag they fought under and since it's a part of their heritage it should even be permitted on public property. It's in the context of history so racism is not implied. Besides, not everyone who fought for the south was racist and the Civil War was a racist and the Civil War was not a war fought over slavery. It was fought over trade and factories. And, by the way, I live in the north east US abnd grew up here all my life and have no ties to southern heritage or southern pride. I'm just saying that these vetrans should be allowed to be associated with a flag they fought and died for. I wouldn't deny that to any group who did that.

[Lars Vermundsberget]

When I was in college I knew several classmates from South Africa and they all told me this. In fact the white ones told me things are so bad there that many of the white South Africans are trying to get out.

For all I know this could be true in the experience of these particular people right where they came from. But in the whole context of the history of South Africa this piece of info has got to be "screwy" to say the least - and not representative of the power relations between people of different colours in South Africa.

But honestly, if you come from Africa I'd say you have more right to be an African American than anyone born in America. Why should it only mean skin color? The Jamaccan students at my college HATED being called African Americans too. They were like "Dude, we're not even from Africa, Mon. We're just black!" and people would be shocked.

Very interesting. It shows that even while officially using the supposedly "neutral" term "African American" the focus IS on skin colour.

I'll go one further. If you feel offended by something on TV or in a film then JUST DON'T LOOK!

Sure, I'll agree to that - it's just that when people are already offended it's too late not to look... Then they should start by taking a serious look into themselves, at least a couple of times - not until then should one consider whether it's time to scream out. Unfortunately, of course, "considering" isn't always a part of the picture at all, since too many people simply act immediately based on their "gut feeling"...

No one is forcing anyone to watch anything and if Song of the South is ever released again no one is forcing anyone to rent it, see it, or buy it. People need to take responsibility for their own actions on examples like this and that is why I say it seems like some people are out LOOKING to be offended.

Yeah, people "looking to be offended" seems to be the core of the problem - at least as long as we're talking about a comparatively "lame" movie such as SotS...

[Lars Vermundsberget]

When I was in college I knew several classmates from South Africa and they all told me this. In fact the white ones told me things are so bad there that many of the white South Africans are trying to get out.

For all I know this could be true in the experience of these particular people right where they came from. But in the whole context of the history of South Africa this piece of info has got to be "screwy" to say the least - and not representative of the power relations between people of different colours in South Africa.

On second thoughts, I'll have to add something here: I made the assumption that your college days were quite some years ago, that is the 80s or earlier. If that's correct I'll have to stand by what I wrote. If, on the other hand, you were in college during the last ten years or so the conclusion must be that things are taking a nasty turn in South Africa. Replacing one evil with the opposite extreme is rarely a good solution.

[2099net]

Regarding South Africa, I believe "selected" land belonging to white people has been "returned" to black people. In each case, the land was arguablely stolen in the first place (I say arguably, because basically the whole country was in effect stolen). But this only applies to land with documentation showing it was taken, and the rightful owners descendants can be traced (and its not being "seized" as such, but compulsary purchase orders are being made by the government - although no doubt this compensation will be below the going rate, such is the nature of governments).

Does this mean S Africa will become like Zimbabwe? Who knows? Is it a perfect solution? I doubt it. But the blacks in South Africa has lived with decades of repression and poverty. Its all very well saying one evil has been replaced by another, but countries leadership can't be expected to turn 180 degrees instantly, and without fault.

Think about the mistakes people make in everyday life when their situations change. We read about them all the time in the papers... its what half of all celabrity gossip consists of.

Perhaps some gain fame or money and become arrogant. Or others loose big time and become depressed and suicidal. Or others who had no power gain power and become bullies. Most people make mistakes when their personal situations change - its hard to adjust sometims. Governments are no different (but should be held to account).

I'm not defending S Africa - mainly because of their woeful attitude to AIDS (most key government officials refuse to even acknowledge it), and it has a huge problem with law and order.

But metaphorically they are still finding their feet, and given how said Black people have been treated, it is only right some amends are made. If - in affect - throwing people out of their homes for sins commited not by them, but by their ancestors is the right answer is, no doubt open to debate.

Now to being this back to Song of the South - is it too offensive to release on DVD. No, because nothing is too offensive to release as long as the proper context and information is presented to the individual when he makes his purchasing or viewing decision.

[Chernabog_Rocks]

One thing that I've noticed is how t.v shows like Simpsons and Family guy quite often poke fun at other cultures and lots of stuff in these shows could be considered racist in some way but yet no one seems to be outrage at them. Yet Disney's movie Song of The South is still locked up in the Vault because they don't want to offend anyone.

[SpringHeelJack]

Yeah, but "The Simpsons", "South Park", and "Family Guy" are poking fun at the topic, not actually being racist. There's a difference. It's all equal oppurtunity offending.

[UncleEd]

I attended college from fall of 1999 through spring of 2003. What my friends told me pretty much sums up to the mainstream black people in South Africa started a movement to kick the whites out of the country and make the current generation pay for crimes their ancestors did. THis is similar to those in this country who want slavery restitutions paid out in this country. (I don't see why decendents should be held accountable for the actions of their ancestors but anyway.) MY friends told me that once their magistrates started passing the legislation more and more people were abusing the laws and now very few whites still own property there. The movement wants all whites out of SA. In my opinion I think everyone in the world should just focus on the here and now and forget the past and work on our relations now. I only see race and ethnic groups when people shove it in my face. Personally I'd rather people just did their thing and stop reminding us that they're a minority or what have you. This is only shoving a wrench in the equality these same people claim they want.


I don't believe my friends were lying to me. They seemed honest enough and even though they had been so royally screwed in their homeland they still trusted their legal system more than our's because they could never gettheir minds around how a group of 12 peers could understand the law to judge guilt. I didn't agree with them on that but anyway.

The situation all over Africa is where PC thinking can lead us and yet another reason I"m against it.

I think Family Guy's race jokes ARE racist. They always take everything way too far.

[SpringHeelJack]

I think Family Guy's race jokes ARE racist. They always take everything way too far.

Eh, I just think it's a badly written show all around. It's one thing to puch the envelope and be funny (as "South Park" has so often done) and another to try to push the envelope, fail miserably in the process, and just keep beating a joke until it dies a miserable bloody death onscreen (as "Family Guy" has so often done). As a writer, the show makes me want to hit my head against a desk.

[UncleEd]

I'm a writer too and the very reason you don't like the family guy jokes is the same as me. They just go too far and make it unfunny. My friends who write for the Simpsons like to use this example. On both shows you might see a joke about clubbing a seal but on the Simpsons you won't see the seal clubbed. On Family Guy you'll not only see the seal clubbed but beaten to a bloody pulp, stomped on, minced, etc. for 10 minutes. I just can't stand FAmily Guy and I've given it several chances. Interestingly I think South Park is much more tasteful in it's humor and it's the show with the bad wrap.

[2099net]

I attended college from fall of 1999 through spring of 2003. What my friends told me pretty much sums up to the mainstream black people in South Africa started a movement to kick the whites out of the country and make the current generation pay for crimes their ancestors did. THis is similar to those in this country who want slavery restitutions paid out in this country. (I don't see why decendents should be held accountable for the actions of their ancestors but anyway.) MY friends told me that once their magistrates started passing the legislation more and more people were abusing the laws and now very few whites still own property there. The movement wants all whites out of SA. In my opinion I think everyone in the world should just focus on the here and now and forget the past and work on our relations now.

But there's people in South Africa living in squalid shanty towns, 4, 5 or 6 of them in a small corrigated hut with one room and no running water. And you think that they should just ignore the fact that Mr Smith is living in his spacious farmhouse, making a decent living farming, not only on land that his ancestors stole at gunpoint and his fortune was amassed by him and his family doing little actual work while they relied on the black people worked on "his" land in virtual slavery.

And you think people should just forget that? It's not going to happen. It's a huge injustice. You can't just shrug your shoulders and pretend decade after decade of insitutionalised abuse didn't happen. What South Africa has come up with isn't the prefect solution, I'll grant you that. But you know what, I can't think of a vastly better one. You could, perhaps, find some way to share the land and profits, but that probably wouldn't work either.

But I don't have to think of a better system, because I have no illusions of running for office (and I wouldn't want the responsibility), so I don't have to. But I'd like to think people who critisise the system could come up with something better than "Its PC gone mad".

Do you think all the art treasures and money <strike>stolen</strike> looted by Nazis during the war shouldn't be given back too? We should let the few living Nazi war criminals and their famlies benefit from their crimes?

What if an innocent is locked up in prison for decades for a crime he didn't commit? Should he shrug his shoulders when he's released and just be happy he's finally free? What if he was executed? Should his family just say "oh well, the past is the past."?

[Lars Vermundsberget]

All right, so UncleEd seems to be younger than what I for some reason thought from the start. That clears things up - good.

There's no doubt that grave injustice was done to the black people of SA for generations - it was a racist system. When things changed around 1990 things were looking quite promising for a few years. But there's no way everything's going to be fine "just like that" - and I believe SA was and remains one of the most violent societies in the world.

There's probably no way around considerable drawbacks for the white who used to be highly privileged. Still, the bottom line must be that replacing one sort of racism with just "racism the other way around" is not a good solution. If that's indeed what's happening in SA now I think that's very, very sad.

[2099net]

This is so-off topic, but here's another view, from an article dayed 20th Feb 2007.
http://allafrica.com/stories/200702200742.html

PREDICTABLY, organised agriculture has responded to the state's first land expropriation, at Pniel in Northern Cape, in terms of the Restitution of Land Rights Act with vitriol and fear- mongering, calling it an assault on property rights and suggesting it threatens commercial agriculture.

Their less-than-subtle subtext is that government is embarking on a Zimbabwe-style land grab. This is patently not true, and by harping on this issue farmers' organisations do not serve the interests of the sector or that of white farmers. That the expropriation at Pniel is the first of its kind, coming only now that a stalemate has been reached after lengthy negotiations, indicates government's respect for the rule of law and its reluctance to use the state's overwhelming power.

So it would appear the 1st and only FORCED land expropriation was done less than 1 month ago, under exceptional circumstances, as part of a policy that has been in effect since the mid 1990's.

And I don't know about your US government, but our UK one can have forced property purchases for reasons of building roads, etc. It doesn't mean everyone in the UK is going to be made homeless overnight.

[UncleEd]

Booting people off their land is no answer. Look at how the world supports the Muslim’s claim on Israel when they booted the Jews out centuries ago. When Israel was partially given back all Hell broke loose and the Jews are treated as the interlopers. I’m sure there are plenty of black people living there in good conditions too. You only see what the media wants you to see. I’ve never seen a white SA but I’ve met several. I have met 4 black SA and none seemed poor to me. This poverty issue there seems more of a poverty issue than a racial one. Race seems like the scapegoat.

“But I'd like to think people who criticize the system could come up with something better than "Its PC gone mad". “

I did give a solution. I said they should share the land. As has already been said, replacing one racist way of life with another is no way to be. Besides, the black SA ancestors got plenty of revenge on the whites who settled there. Their form of Thanksgiving is about a day when the tribes made the English think they were entertaining them but it was really a war dance and they massacred them all. It’s the ame in the US. The Indians here before the white men came were not the tree hugging in harmony with nature people your PC text books want you to believe. They were brutally warring among themselves for centuries.


“Do you think all the art treasures and money stolen looted by Nazis during the war shouldn't be given back too? We should let the few living Nazi war criminals and their families benefit from their crimes?”


That wasn’t looting, it was stealing. It should be returned. This is different than a case where you have generations of people removed from the events though. We still have ex nazis and victims alive today. In America we don’t have any surviving slaves or slave owners.


“What if an innocent is locked up in prison for decades for a crime he didn't commit? Should he shrug his shoulders when he's released and just be happy he's finally free? What if he was executed? Should his family just say "oh well, the past is the past."?”


How is this even remotely like what I said? I said future generations should not be required to pay for crimes and actions of their ancestors. Should we hold germans born in 2007 accountable for the Holocaust? Get real. Everyone is their own person and makes their own choices. You can’t make someone else pay for something their ancestor did to people who’s ancestors were victims. There are no victims and guilty parties alive today so why should anyone be considered a victim or a guilty party? In America you have a lot of black people who blame white people for why their life sucks and they just sit around complaining about it and being a victim but never do anything to change their way of life. Then you have black people born in the same conditions and neighborhoods who try to better themselves and they become quite successful. But I guess it’s just easier to blame others for your own problems.

“So it would appear the 1st and only FORCED land expropriation was done less than 1 month ago, under exceptional circumstances, as part of a policy that has been in effect since the mid 1990's.”

My friends knew people that this happened to some time between the late 90’s-early 2000’s.

“And I don't know about your US government, but our UK one can have forced property purchases for reasons of building roads, etc. It doesn't mean everyone in the UK is going to be made homeless overnight.”

We have that too but recently it was extended to include the building of shopping centers and several court cases are on going trying to stop this.



So how old did you think I was? Do I seem older in the stuff I say? People who know me always say I was born 40 so I’d be in my 60’s now.

[Lars Vermundsberget]

I said future generations should not be required to pay for crimes and actions of their ancestors. Should we hold germans born in 2007 accountable for the Holocaust? Get real. Everyone is their own person and makes their own choices. You can’t make someone else pay for something their ancestor did to people who’s ancestors were victims. There are no victims and guilty parties alive today so why should anyone be considered a victim or a guilty party?

Basically true for Germany - and America. But SA had a racist regime that lasted up to and including the 1980s. And we're not talking about slight racial "prejudice" or discrimination here - it was an injustice as clear as "black and white" - "night and day". And this happened in the very recent past. Most of the people are still there. It's an understatement to say that SA of today has a lot of problems caused by this system - it's not just a bunch of people troubled with low self-esteem that they inherited from ancestors they never knew.

Still, this shouldn't be an excuse to do any- and everything to all of the white people of SA. But I think it's quite obvious that there'll have to be some "redistribution" of property in SA - just hope they won't do it all in an all-too-stupid fashion.

So how old did you think I was? Do I seem older in the stuff I say? People who know me always say I was born 40 so I’d be in my 60’s now.

Hmmm - I guess the name "UncleEd" reminded me of Uncle Remus - so, there you are...

[Disneykid]

Here's something that's actually on-topic:

According to DarkHorizons, John Lasseter stated at a press conference (the one that we've been getting The Frog Princess pics from) that due to high demand, they're looking (again) at the possibility of releasing Song of the South to DVD. Of course, they've been "looking" for so long that I'm trying not to get my hopes up, but at least they acknowledge the fact that many people are requesting it. Let's see how this turns out.

[UncleEd]

I was only saying that the current generation shouldn't be expected to pay for crimes of ancestors. They should be held accountable for any human rights violations or crimes that those living have committed. That's all I've said from day one. Only those who actually do these things should be punished. Not everyone just because of their skin color or what not. Only those who have actually done these things.

I picked my ID name because of Uncle Walt. Then shortly after I was surprised to become a real uncle. Go figure. I do tell nd write stories though so I guess you were half right.


That's great news from Lassater. I said from day one he is one of our biggest SOTS supporters out there.

[UmbrellaFish]

Here's something that's actually on-topic:

According to DarkHorizons, John Lasseter stated at a press conference (the one that we've been getting The Frog Princess pics from) that due to high demand, they're looking (again) at the possibility of releasing Song of the South to DVD. Of course, they've been "looking" for so long that I'm trying not to get my hopes up, but at least they acknowledge the fact that many people are requesting it. Let's see how this turns out.

Hmm... It looks like we get more and more possibilty of its release everyday.