On November 2nd, who are you going to vote for?

[Maerj]

Hi!

Maybe 1000 US marines and soldiers lives...

but how many more from really innocent Iraqui and afgan people?

Over 10,000 Iraquis in the inital attack, I heard.

[Lumiere]

this post shows that there are more kids in ultimate disney than adults!!!

we have the 46 % yay!!!!

[AwallaceUNC]

No Nader supporters on UD??

-Aaron

[GOGOinVegas]

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u ... 0908164913

saw this story on CNN the other morning, saying that 30 out of 35 countries in the world would easily vote for Kerry if they could vote in our election. thought it was interesting......

my own vote would also be for Kerry. Our dead soldiers will not change these peoples minds Just like you cant change a right wing ,pro war,christian ,homophobe,republican president. It cannot be done!. All the separate groups in the region will not give up their beliefs. They will not stop killing ,or trying to kill each other. I say let em do it, and get my brother home for Christmas.

[karlsen]

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u ... 0908164913

saw this story on CNN the other morning, saying that 30 out of 35 countries in the world would easily vote for Kerry if they could vote in our election. thought it was interesting......

Yes, that is realy interesting because of George Bush did not act like he does then the rest of the world would not care to whom the president in America is.

The reason why 74% of the Norwegian people belive that Kerry is the best suted president of America is because they are afraid of what Bush would do next.

If Americans realy do care about the terrorist threet then they should not reelect Bush. Like I sead in my last post: The rest of the world does not hate America for their freedom like Bush seas, but they hate them because of all the things they do to the rest of the world.

Norway is one of the oldest and strongest alies to America, and that seas a lot when the goverment here suddenly seas that they do not agree. A good friend does not say "OK, I guess you are correct" to everything the friend seas. A realy good friend speaks out to guide and help their friend if they see that he is on a wrong path. That is just what is happening just now.

If George Bush is reelected I will garantie you that there will be atleast one more attack from terrorist within the country. I am also afraid that he will go to war in another country like Iran, because he has already indicated that they have weapons of mass distruction there. I guess that is as big a lie as last time.

No, all good americans should do their duty and go out and wote that day in november. The vote should go to the only person that could and will change the worlds aditute to America.

[Just Myself]

No Nader supporters on UD??

-Aaron

You mean Nader the Nads?

[2099net]

To defend a two party system to some extent I think we have to look at how lazy society is as a whole.

People can't even do the research on two candidates, I don't think adding more really solves anything.

You're never going to agree totally with someone, but i think a lot of people gotta stop waiting for perfection. They won't vote though they agree 75% with a particular candidate from either party. Voting, much like policies of the people you vote for, is about compromise.

That doesn't sound nearly as wonderful as our childhood lessons of "everyone decides everything" but such is life.

The one thing that does bother me on BOTH sides is the lack of knowledge of far too many people. Politics is becoming like religion in that people are born into a belief and follow it though they never even know why.

One of my best friends is a hard-core Republican and debating with him is one of the most enjoyable and mind expanding experiences ever. But there are so many people {again on BOTH sides} who just put the blinder up. They don't know what they believe they just know mommy and daddy said so. That {along with not voting} is probably the biggest shame.

If you can defend your view that's awesome and merits respect, but make sure you know what you believe. Don't hold politicians to a level that no one {yourself included} can live up to and at the same time try to understand that not EVERYTHING can happen the way you want it because for all their flaws, both sides do tend to balance each other on the whole.

I don't suggest that there should be a slew of parties. But two just doesn't work. They (generally) fall to far in the middle.

They have more influence on their members, resulting in politicians toeing the official party line more often, they (generally) discourage open debate (only the two "official" sides of the debate get worthwhile airtime). I think we need all western democracies to have a viable 3 or 4 party system. That way, parties will need to work with each other, politicians would be more able to speak freely and ultimately no single party will hold a major lead, becuase percentage wise, no party (generally) has a major dominance over another.

Most importantly, the parties could stop abusing their position. For example many of the European countries in the coalition are in against the majority wishes of their populations. Arguably, including the UK (polls fluctuate). But Labour knows people will most likely still vote for them becuase [a] neither of the opposition has much credibility at the moment and people generally like how they have handled most home issues, so will probably ignore it when it comes to the election. If there were more than two options available, people would be more willing to switch votes and the elected officials would therefore find themselves not only be more accountable to the people, but also more willing to listen to the people.

As for people being lazy. Well, how can you expect them to take an interest in their own future and welfare when American Idol is on?

Following that logic, and if the public dumbs down at the same rate, you may as well just abolish elections in the next 30 or 40 years anyway.

[Edge]

I think the big problem is effort and just the way we've become so contradicting in the U.S.

We pride ourselves of people of change but we do have a hard time with it.

Humans as a whole are emotional and often irrational. Which is our current situation. It's very much like the old Disney cartoon "Chicken Little". Scare someone good enough and they'll do whatever you say and believe whatever you say.

[karlsen]

I don't suggest that there should be a slew of parties. But two just doesn't work. They (generally) fall to far in the middle.

But am I wrong when I seay that there already are more partyes in America then 2. You have Nader and many more parties but they never get enough votes to win.

I agree that a democratic country should have more parties then just 2 but if there got more real parties in America then you had to change the whole system. Imagining there beeing 5 parties and because all got lots of votes the winner only got 21% of the votes. Would that be fair?

I agree with people that seas that the system ain't perfect just now but I don't belive it would be any better with another system. I also does not belive that more people would vote if there were more people to vote for. There are lots of people to vote for (altough just 2 of them are realistic) so if you don't like either Bush or Kerry at all then just find anotherone that you do like and vote for him. The most important thing in the world are that people do vote.

But another large problem in America is that you have to register to vote, why on earth should you do this? Everybody ebove the age of 18 (or whatever are the voting age in America) should be able to vote. Here in Norway there are no restrictions at all, just that you must be above 18.

Why on earth should not blacks be alowed to vote like it is now? In some of the states above 25% of the black populition are not alowed to vote because they have done something stupid some time in the past and been to jail for that. Last election there was lots of reportings of blacks that was stoped from voting and that is not democratic. That sounds like something Saddam Husain would do and not the United States of America would.

Some states even sent out a letter to all the blacks in the state telling them that everybody turning up to vote that had unpaid parking tickets or unpaid house rent or something other minor on their record would be arrested. This is nothing less then a threet to get blacks to not vote. This sounds more like South Africa before the Aparteid and not the United States of America.

It is no big secret that many of those that are denied to vote would have voted for Kerry, so I can realy understand Bush denying them their rights but somebody should speak out and say what they think about this practise.

If this had been in an south american country the world would be furious on them and sead what they thought of it. UN would not accept the election because of illigal activitys.

[Isidour]

Hi!

Anyway, what can assure us than Bush will not fix the votes so he can win as he did the very firs time??

or do you really belive than he was the real winner?

by the way, I heard than Bush is on one religion where they teach than if you born in a economically good familly, you must be what you want, if you born in a servant´s familly, you must serve to the ones who are suposed to be better tha you...

do you think than this kind of mind will think "oh, poor soldiers, let´s forget all this and bring them whit their famillies. Forget all the oil and natural gas, and the billions of dollars than they all mean..."
This maybe is the Bush way of thinking: "Hey, you´re not rich, you´ll be a good soldier, and as a soldier you must die for your contry, not matter how stuppid or crazy is the reason, it´s for your coutry..."

man, I think than this type of thinking was from XVI century

[Luke]

Not really looking to participate, but I would like to correct something.

Some states even sent out a letter to all the blacks in the state telling them that everybody turning up to vote that had unpaid parking tickets or unpaid house rent or something other minor on their record would be arrested. This is nothing less then a threet to get blacks to not vote. This sounds more like South Africa before the Aparteid and not the United States of America.

No states would single out blacks with criminal records. Mailings to all people with criminal records seems feasible, since a number of states won't let convicted felons vote. But that's not based on skin hue, but on past offenses.

[2099net]

I don't suggest that there should be a slew of parties. But two just doesn't work. They (generally) fall to far in the middle.

But am I wrong when I seay that there already are more partyes in America then 2. You have Nader and many more parties but they never get enough votes to win.

I agree that a democratic country should have more parties then just 2 but if there got more real parties in America then you had to change the whole system. Imagining there beeing 5 parties and because all got lots of votes the winner only got 21% of the votes. Would that be fair?

I agree with people that seas that the system ain't perfect just now but I don't belive it would be any better with another system. I also does not belive that more people would vote if there were more people to vote for. There are lots of people to vote for (altough just 2 of them are realistic) so if you don't like either Bush or Kerry at all then just find anotherone that you do like and vote for him. The most important thing in the world are that people do vote.

But the problem is the other parties are not creditable, people won't vote for them, even if they agree as they know they will not get enough votes.

As for your 21% of the votes. Yes it would be fair. Or fairer I should say. Because while the party with 21% of the votes may have the President/Prime Minister, the house will be split more then it is now between two parties. The house will thus have more debate, and the President/Prime Minister will have to work harder to pass any bills, as even though his own party may automatically support his intentions, the other 3-4 (whatever) won't. They can make their own minds up. And hopefully between them the 3-4 other parties will have a majority of the seats between them.

Politics these days isn't really politics. It's just two groups of people who (generally) follow their party line come what may, mainly because they have their eye on their own political careers and don't want to rock the boat with their party leaders.

As for the comments I keep seeing about too much choice, or people won't bother to research the candidates...

If you have a system that treats people like braindead zombies then you'll succeed in turning your population into braindead zombies. Then you'll have a government run by opportunists who know they can do anything they want and the braindead zombies in the general population won't kick up a fuss or complain. Reach for the stars people! Make people feel more involved in politics and they will be. There's a reason voter turnout keeps going down each year. People despise the current system and don't want to be part of it.

[karlsen]

by the way, I heard than Bush is on one religion where they teach than if you born in a economically good familly, you must be what you want, if you born in a servant´s familly, you must serve to the ones who are suposed to be better tha you...

This is just one of those rumors that nobody could prove at all. If I remember correct Bush is a Methodist just as many others in America. There are lots of false rumors out on the internett and they are just based on false acusations from people that just hates another person. This debate should not use those "rumors" at all because they hurt the serious debate.

Not really looking to participate, but I would like to correct something.

Some states even sent out a letter to all the blacks in the state telling them that everybody turning up to vote that had unpaid parking tickets or unpaid house rent or something other minor on their record would be arrested. This is nothing less then a threet to get blacks to not vote. This sounds more like South Africa before the Aparteid and not the United States of America.

No states would single out blacks with criminal records. Mailings to all people with criminal records seems feasible, since a number of states won't let convicted felons vote. But that's not based on skin hue, but on past offenses.

No, that is not correct. Acording to Vicky Beasley working at the "People for the American Way" black voters in Baltimore and Georgia gets letters telling them that everybody that had not paid their taxes, house rent og that had un paid parking tickets would get arrested at the voting boths. This was not letters sent to people with a criminal record but to blacks in general.

This is realy terrible in my oppinion because what they realy are trying to do here is to frighten black people from voting. It is no big secret that the black majority traditionaly are democrats and then frightning them from voting asures more votes for Bush.

Under the election in Philadelphia last year there were people standing outside the voting locations dressed like police, just to scare of people from voting.

Voters from minority groups are also denied voting in some places by asking them for a drivers licens. You do not have to show a drivers licens to vote but they do this just because there are 4 to 5 more people in the black comunitys that does not have a drivers licens then in the white comunityes.

There has also been reportings of people filming the voters in places where most voters are black.

You are also correct that there are laws in some stats (like Florida) that states that ex convicts are not able to vote. Is this democracy? The ex convicts has done their time for their crime but are for the rest of their lives not aloved to vote. There are no secret that there are more black people with a criminal record then whites. In stats like Iowa and New Mexico 25% of the black population was denied this right because they had done something crimial in the past. This could have been 50 years ago, but they are still denied to vote.

But the problem is the other parties are not creditable, people won't vote for them, even if they agree as they know they will not get enough votes.

That might be true, but you can not ask for more trustworthy parties, they must be made by the public. So the 2 party system that are now would not get thrown away before the public does anything with it.

[Luke]

No, that is not correct. Acording to Vicky Beasley working at the "People for the American Way" black voters in Baltimore and Georgia gets letters telling them that everybody that had not paid their taxes, house rent og that had un paid parking tickets would get arrested at the voting boths. This was not letters sent to people with a criminal record but to blacks in general.

This is realy terrible in my oppinion because what they realy are trying to do here is to frighten black people from voting. It is no big secret that the black majority traditionaly are democrats and then frightning them from voting asures more votes for Bush.

Not really. Here is the quote from Vicki Beasley:

"In elections in Baltimore in 2002 and in Georgia last year, black voters were sent fliers saying anyone who hadn't paid utility bills or had outstanding parking tickets or were behind on their rent would be arrested at polling stations. It happens in every election cycle," she said."

Doesn't sound like they received letters from officials at all. If anything, it was probably some organization trying to raise awareness of the laws for their votership. And while at it, promote the theory that disallowing people with criminal records is unfair because statistically more people with criminal records vote for Democrats.

You would not get any US state or federal government to single out just blacks and send out mass mailings without raising a huge stir.

[karlsen]

Not really. Here is the quote from Vicki Beasley:

"In elections in Baltimore in 2002 and in Georgia last year, black voters were sent fliers saying anyone who hadn't paid utility bills or had outstanding parking tickets or were behind on their rent would be arrested at polling stations. It happens in every election cycle," she said."

Doesn't sound like they received letters from officials at all. If anything, it was probably some organization trying to raise awareness of the laws for their votership. And while at it, promote the theory that disallowing people with criminal records is unfair because statistically more people with criminal records vote for Democrats.

The only thing that I can find to be wrong in my statement was that they recived flyers and not letters. Nobody knows who sent out the flyers, and I may should not have stated that it was the State that did it. What I realy meant was that "in some states the black majority got flyers".

The issue here is not who sends out stuff like this but that it is done. I can not see any other reason for sending this out then to frighten people from voting.

But this was only one of many points that I made, and it is clear that some people are working hard to prevent that some poeple does not vote.

The incident where people were asking voters for drivers licens must have been officials though. Who else is alowed to go around in the voting place asking for credidentials?

[MickeyMouseboy]

I'm going to vote for Loomis because he said:

I will put the holy trilogy in every american home

[Celtic]

Not being American means I can't vote obviously but I'll be shell-shocked if the American people put George W(ar) Bush back in office. The guy is a bible-bashing, reformed alcoholic with a hard-on for war. The world would be a lot safer now if the real President was voted in 4yrs ago (Gore for those of you not paying attention!). To put Bush back in is to plunge the world into even deeper despair than he has already managed to. Since he came into office those of us working in the Middle East have spent our time looking over our shoulder every 5mins expecting some nut Islamic Terrorist to kill us. Before Bush this was a nice neighbourhood! Now I have dreams of Al Qaeda invading our compound and putting us in concentration camps like the Nazis! Evacuation procedures are now top of the list of 'things to have ready' by all Embassies in the Middle East and myself and my hubby have already plotted our route outta here if and when the whole region goes tits-up. This isn't something we'd have to worry about if Bush hadn't fiddled the last election!

Come on people.....get the world off the brink of nuclear war.....vote for Kerry! Give the chance.....I'm pretty sure most nations on the planet would vote for him!

[2099net]

Well, I had to drag this up from the depths to show how President Bush's actions have "made America and the world safer".

CNN

Nuclear materials 'vanish' in Iraq

Equipment and materials that could be used to make nuclear weapons have disappeared from Iraq, the chief of the U.N.'s atomic watchdog agency has warned.

Satellite imagery shows entire buildings that once housed high-precision equipment that could be used to make nuclear bombs have been dismantled, the International Atomic Energy Agency said in a letter to the Security Council.

... skip ...

The U.S. government prevented U.N. weapons inspectors from returning to Iraq -- thereby blocking the IAEA from monitoring the high-tech equipment and materials -- after the U.S.-led war was launched in March 2003.

The Bush administration then deployed U.S. teams in what turned out to be an unsuccessful search for Iraqi weapons of mass destruction.

The IAEA said in its letter that U.S. and Iraqi officials have not reported dismantling any sites relevant to Iraq's nuclear program.

Anti-proliferation agreements say that the United States, which administered Iraq until June 2004, and the Iraqi interim government, which took over from the United States in June, must inform the IAEA of any import or export of such materials and equipment.

But since March 2003 "the agency has received no such notifications or declarations from any state," ElBaradei said.

The nuclear agency has since then had to rely on satellite imagery to work out what is happening with Iraq's nuclear sites.

"The imagery shows in many instances the dismantlement of entire buildings that housed high precision equipment ... formerly monitored and tagged with IAEA seals, as well as the removal of equipment and materials (such as high-strength aluminum) from open storage areas," he said.

In his letter, ElBaradei added that "as the disappearance of such equipment and materials may be of proliferation significance, any state that has information about the location of such items should provide IAEA with that information."

Guardian Newspaper UK

Nuclear items missing in Iraq

Equipment and materials that could be used to make nuclear weapons have disappeared from Iraq, the UN's nuclear watchdog warned yesterday.
Satellite imagery and investigations of nuclear sites in Iraq have caused alarm at the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA).

The agency found that in some cases entire buildings housing high-precision nuclear equipment had been dismantled; equipment that could be used to make a bomb, such as high-strength aluminium, had vanished from open storage areas, the agency said.

... skip ...

But it now appears Iraq may pose a nuclear threat of a different sort: some military goods, including missile engines, that disappeared from Iraq after the US-led invasion later turned up in scrap yards in the Middle East and Europe. However, none of the equipment or material known to the IAEA as potentially useful in making nuclear bombs has been found, according to Mr ElBaradei.

All News Sources

So, it appears for the moment that it's gone from a flimsy "theoretical" Saddam could "pass nuclear knowledge and secrets to terrorists" to an actual "terrorists have looted Iraq". Well done Mr President. I suppose you just happened to have too few troops to guard the mothballed nuclear sites as well as the Oil Ministry. Didn't you think with all the "terrorists" causing problems in the country, it may be a good idea to guard these sites?

So until other news is known (and I don't mean "spin") it would appear the Iraq invasion has caused what it was supposed to stop.

[Disney Guru]

I am only 17 and cannot vote. But If I could vote, George W. Bush would deffinately get my vote. Lets change the Song from the One And Only Genuine Origional Family Band A Bit.

Lets Put It Over With Bush
Give Him Your Vote, He'll Make It Work
Lets Put It Over With Bush
Its Up To You, He'll Cary Through
He Made The White House. Shine like A Light House
Over the 50 states.
He Made The USA shine like a beacon. to all of this country's greatest statesmen.

That is all I can come up with.

[Escapay]

LOL, DG. Kram did that once with Kerry:

Let's all be merry with Kerry!
We'll rock the boat and give him our vote!
Give your vote to a man who'll be leader to men
Let's be merry with Kerry again...

Let's all be merry with Kerry!
We'll rock the boat and give him our vote!
He'll make the White House shine like a lighthouse
Over our nifty fifty states
2004 we'll come knocking at your door
To support this country's greatest statesman

Senator John Kerry is the man this country needs...
(I forget how the rest of the song goes...)

Oh well, I'll probably go out and vote, but I'm still trying to decide between the two.

Escapay