The Hunchback of Notre Dame Discussion

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Thumper_93
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Re: The Hunchback of Notre Dame Discussion

Post by Thumper_93 »

Lavendergolden wrote: Sat Jan 04, 2025 10:32 pm
Disney Duster wrote: Fri Dec 20, 2024 10:11 pm But The Hunchback of Notre Dame is a 99% flawed masterpiece to me!
100% agree! I think it's super protective moms in America that gave Hunchback a bad rating. I don't think it's religious groups because I've spoken to religious people all over the world and none of them dislike this movie but love it. It's only ever the American moms. I have a Disney friend who loves and consumes all Disney stuff but she hates Hunchback and says she finds it inappropriate and unsafe. That she feels physically threatened by this movie's existence and thinks Disney shamed all children by making this movie.
They were really careful about not including bad religious characters to avoid polemics. I understand that they didn't want controversy but the soul of the original movie is how people use religion the way that they want and how they judge others when Jesus showed us to not judge and to love everybody. Btw it's a masterpiece. My second favorite Disney movie of all time!
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Re: The Hunchback of Notre Dame Discussion

Post by Lavendergolden »

Thumper_93 wrote: Tue Jan 07, 2025 5:15 am
Lavendergolden wrote: Sat Jan 04, 2025 10:32 pm

100% agree! I think it's super protective moms in America that gave Hunchback a bad rating. I don't think it's religious groups because I've spoken to religious people all over the world and none of them dislike this movie but love it. It's only ever the American moms. I have a Disney friend who loves and consumes all Disney stuff but she hates Hunchback and says she finds it inappropriate and unsafe. That she feels physically threatened by this movie's existence and thinks Disney shamed all children by making this movie.
They were really careful about not including bad religious characters to avoid polemics. I understand that they didn't want controversy but the soul of the original movie is how people use religion the way that they want and how they judge others when Jesus showed us to not judge and to love everybody. Btw it's a masterpiece. My second favorite Disney movie of all time!
I think even though Frollo is not a cleric anymore, the movie still works because he still is religious and uses religion to justify his actions. None of the Hollywood films have ever made Frollo a cleric like in the book so this is purely an American thing, not just a Disney thing. Only in Europe is it allowed to make Frollo a priest because we are not so restricting when it comes to depictions of religion as well as sex. America has a very Puritanical backbone which I guess makes sense because America was founded by Puritans and Puritans all left Europe. But very interesting to see that hundreds of years later, that Puritanical backbone is still very strong which is why Hunchback did better internationally and still has a presence here. One of my all-time favorite films as well!
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Re: The Hunchback of Notre Dame Discussion

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Thumper, I had no idea it was your second favorite!

Lavendergolden, that is a very, very interesting thought about how Puritanical America is and how Europe is not like that! I wonder if that really is the case.
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Re: The Hunchback of Notre Dame Discussion

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Lavendergolden wrote: Tue Jan 07, 2025 6:35 pm
Thumper_93 wrote: Tue Jan 07, 2025 5:15 am

They were really careful about not including bad religious characters to avoid polemics. I understand that they didn't want controversy but the soul of the original movie is how people use religion the way that they want and how they judge others when Jesus showed us to not judge and to love everybody. Btw it's a masterpiece. My second favorite Disney movie of all time!
I think even though Frollo is not a cleric anymore, the movie still works because he still is religious and uses religion to justify his actions. None of the Hollywood films have ever made Frollo a cleric like in the book so this is purely an American thing, not just a Disney thing. Only in Europe is it allowed to make Frollo a priest because we are not so restricting when it comes to depictions of religion as well as sex. America has a very Puritanical backbone which I guess makes sense because America was founded by Puritans and Puritans all left Europe. But very interesting to see that hundreds of years later, that Puritanical backbone is still very strong which is why Hunchback did better internationally and still has a presence here. One of my all-time favorite films as well!
I don't think it's about Puritanical. Frollo in the book and in the movie is Catholic and not all the american people that are christians belong to the catholic church. The cult to Maria is present in all the movie and Puritans don't make cult to her so they don't really have anything to feel offended about.
If I remember well Frollo is part of the church in the Jetlag's version of the novel. In the film made in 1997 Claude is also Archideacon.
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Re: The Hunchback of Notre Dame Discussion

Post by Lavendergolden »

Disney Duster wrote: Tue Jan 07, 2025 10:42 pm Thumper, I had no idea it was your second favorite!

Lavendergolden, that is a very, very interesting thought about how Puritanical America is and how Europe is not like that! I wonder if that really is the case.
Europe is generally not religious. Most British are atheists. I think the Catholic countries like Spain and Italy are still religious. France is Catholic but I don't think they're super religious either outside of smaller towns and villages. Ireland is religious as well. It seems like Catholic countries remain religious while Protestant ones aren't since Scandinavia is also very areligious. I don't think they officially count as secular countries but they're way more secular in spirit than America which is still very much a Christian country even if officially it has no state religion.
Thumper_93 wrote: Wed Jan 08, 2025 2:27 am
Lavendergolden wrote: Tue Jan 07, 2025 6:35 pm
I think even though Frollo is not a cleric anymore, the movie still works because he still is religious and uses religion to justify his actions. None of the Hollywood films have ever made Frollo a cleric like in the book so this is purely an American thing, not just a Disney thing. Only in Europe is it allowed to make Frollo a priest because we are not so restricting when it comes to depictions of religion as well as sex. America has a very Puritanical backbone which I guess makes sense because America was founded by Puritans and Puritans all left Europe. But very interesting to see that hundreds of years later, that Puritanical backbone is still very strong which is why Hunchback did better internationally and still has a presence here. One of my all-time favorite films as well!
I don't think it's about Puritanical. Frollo in the book and in the movie is Catholic and not all the american people that are christians belong to the catholic church. The cult to Maria is present in all the movie and Puritans don't make cult to her so they don't really have anything to feel offended about.
If I remember well Frollo is part of the church in the Jetlag's version of the novel. In the film made in 1997 Claude is also Archideacon.
Yes, most American Christians are not Catholics. In fact, many of them have strong disliking for Catholics since Catholicism is what many colonists fled from. And Catholic minorities like Italians and Irish used to be hated the most in America until non-white minorities like blacks and Asians got more presence and then the Italian and Irish were integrated. Hence why JFK was the first Catholic president in the 60s.

But you also have to keep in mind that most Americans are very ignorant of history and culture. They will see Frollo being Christian and assume any attack on him is an attack on Christianity as a whole, not just Catholicism. They won't view Hunchback as a Catholic film but as a Christian film. It's like how His Dark Materials speaks out against the Catholic Church but Christian groups who were definitely not Catholic were boycotting The Golden Compass movie in the US. TGC actually was a huge hit internationally, especially in Europe, but it failed in America because Christian groups said it promoted atheism in kids. My American friend said she went to middle school and they had teachers and principals leading Christian programs asking kids to stay away from TGC and not pay money for it because it's anti-God and anti-Christian.

So this also goes back to what I said to Duster that Europe is more secular in spirit than in official name, hence why TGC could be a big hit there but not in the US. Even though the author is an atheist and anti-Catholic Church. He's British so it also shows that this is the normal view British people have towards religion, only going to mass on Christmas for the tradition of it.

I haven't seen the Jetlag version.
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Re: The Hunchback of Notre Dame Discussion

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Very interesting, Lavendergolden. I believe you!
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Re: The Hunchback of Notre Dame Discussion

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I don't know much about how people practice their faith righ now. We should see how some countries did it back in the 90s when the movie was released.
I think that it was a great move to change things from the book in order to avoid polemics. Btw they did a great job because Frollo still has this thing to manipulate religion to justify his actions during the movie. It's the soul of the novel. At the same time they also created the character of the archidiacon that's lovely and helps Esmerlada a few times during the film. We had the two faces of the people who are catholic. The ones that changes everyting and justify their hate and the ones that actually follow the steps of Jesus and help everybody. This battle is still active these days and I think that it's going to still between us forever, that's why I think that this film is going to get old really well.

Right now this movie could not be done. Some people talk about how woke Disney has turn now but this film is actually more progresist than all the films that they've made lately. It talks about bullyies, religion... it also talks about a strong woman that fights again racism and sexual harassment. It talks about how some people are corrupted and how these people repress the ones that are different...
It's a risk that they wouldn't take. Religion is transforming into a thing used by some extreme politics. In some countries like Germany is loosing force (you have to pay there for beeing catholic) and some people inside the church are trying to make more modern actions in order to not loose people.
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Re: The Hunchback of Notre Dame Discussion

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Thumper_93 wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2025 3:18 am I don't know much about how people practice their faith righ now. We should see how some countries did it back in the 90s when the movie was released.
I think that it was a great move to change things from the book in order to avoid polemics. Btw they did a great job because Frollo still has this thing to manipulate religion to justify his actions during the movie. It's the soul of the novel. At the same time they also created the character of the archidiacon that's lovely and helps Esmerlada a few times during the film. We had the two faces of the people who are catholic. The ones that changes everyting and justify their hate and the ones that actually follow the steps of Jesus and help everybody. This battle is still active these days and I think that it's going to still between us forever, that's why I think that this film is going to get old really well.

Right now this movie could not be done. Some people talk about how woke Disney has turn now but this film is actually more progresist than all the films that they've made lately. It talks about bullyies, religion... it also talks about a strong woman that fights again racism and sexual harassment. It talks about how some people are corrupted and how these people repress the ones that are different...
It's a risk that they wouldn't take. Religion is transforming into a thing used by some extreme politics. In some countries like Germany is loosing force (you have to pay there for beeing catholic) and some people inside the church are trying to make more modern actions in order to not loose people.
90s were before my time so I don't know if things were very different back then.
I think lots of films have used the Archdeacon to act as Frollo's foil. Sometimes they also do it by splitting up Jehan and Claude Frollo into two characters, one good and one evil. But I'm glad they didn't make the Archdeacon Jehan because Jehan is supposed to be a party boy and younger than Claude. Frollo may not be a priest anymore but we see he still uses religion for his personal agendas up until the end when he can't even pretend to use the cover of religion anymore. When the Archdeacon tells Frollo to stop his attack because of sanctuary, we see Frollo's true colors and how he pushes the Archdeacon aside.

Disney would never make a film like this which is why they don't acknowledge it at all. You can see how Disney still used to give it merch and promotion back in the early 2000s but that changed when Michael Eisner left. This Bob Iger is too afraid of audiences and doesn't give us credit. None of these movies now have any soul to them. You can even see it by comparing something like Frozen to movies with similar scenes. The wolf attack is treated as comedy in Frozen but as something suspenseful and frightening in Beast. It's because Disney is too afraid of upsetting kids and moms by scaring them so everything has to be comedic. Also why there are no villains because Disney is afraid people will get offended by certain traits that are villainized in movies or that kids will get too scared. Also now everything has to be gray so you can't have basic good vs evil anymore and villains always have to be humanized to be real.

Hunchback was progressive. Not woke. They had a story about intolerance and humanity's spirit and they made the film to reflect that. Could cover all sorts of topics like sexism, racism, religious dogma, genocide, ableism of characters with deformities and disabilities, etc. And even the message of unrequited love and learning to accept that since now Disney pretends love doesn't exist at all. Now Disney wouldn't cover even one single one of those topics and Hunchback did them all. Disney just makes films now based on which agenda they want to preach which they don't even believe in but they think will sell well. So they neuter that agenda so it doesn't mean anything to people who would actually appreciate and build a whole film around it so that both sides hate it. This is why I think Hunchback would be the film Walt would be most proud of. He said he watched Hitchcock movies and would feel sad that he can never make movies like that because audiences have family friendly expectations for him and wouldn't allow him to diverge from the Disney brand. This is also why his earlier films were less toned down (queen wanting Snow White's heart in a box, devil on Bald Mountain, no happy ending for victims in Pinocchio) and that's not even considering that he was in tune with his times. He didn't want a big church wedding for Dalmatians because it was too overtly religious and wanted to portray evolution of chimps to humans in Fantasia but knew creationists would get upset. So he was not dogmatic himself. Yes, I think Hunchback is the film he would see and think this is a real message that he wanted to portray as art, not just entertainment, to prove that Disney can make serious hard-hitting films.
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Re: The Hunchback of Notre Dame Discussion

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Thumper_93 wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2025 3:18 am Right now this movie could not be done. Some people talk about how woke Disney has turn now but this film is actually more progresist than all the films that they've made lately.
I'd say that would be the case for almost every movie from the '90s if they were released now except maybe TLK and Tarzan, particularly Pocahontas and Hunchback where the villains are White. It's why the word is meaningless.
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Re: The Hunchback of Notre Dame Discussion

Post by Lavendergolden »

I missed this. Disneyland Paris had a Hunchback themed night show for a week to celebrate the restoration of Notre Dame. I would actually have gone back to a Disney park for this if I had known about it earlier, otherwise I refuse to go to the parks now which are more about pushing agendas and ruining all the classic rides.

And as usual Disney disappoints me by only celebrating for a week instead of making this a year long national celebration for French culture and history. They are so predictable at this point.
https://www.disneylandparis-news.com/en ... ng-drones/
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