Fantasia/Fantasia 2000 Discussion

[Sotiris]

This was one of the strangest events in the history of my time at the Walt Disney Studios. One I’m sure they wished would be buried for good…which is why I’m going to tell you about it. Roy E. Disney’s dream was to see Walt’s vision of Fantasia realized. This vision required new pieces of animation to replace old selections from the film, therefore creating a new experience with each theatrical release. This dream would be achieved to some extent, with the release of “Fantasia 2000” but it was not an easy road. Many concepts were developed and subsequently thrown out in favor of others that were in turn thrown out as well. One such Idea came as a response to Michael Eisner’s choice of music. “Pomp & Circumstance” was the music that he chose. He said it was a very emotional piece that affected him greatly. Could it have been that he had just come from his son’s graduation when he decided upon this piece? Mmmmm, could be. Regardless, that’s what the filmmakers had to use whether they liked it or not. So the then “Fantasia Continued” story team, set to work coming up with a theme to this music. The obvious choice was made, but how to fit the Disney magic into it proved a problem. Their solution was to make it a graduation/reunion with every known Disney character from the last 60 years witnessing the graduation of the princes and princesses from Disney animated history! The kicker was that at the end of the ceremony the princes all got diplomas where as the princesses all got babies. The looks on our faces were reminiscent of that scene in “The Producers” (the good movie with Zero Mostel and Gene Wilder) where the audience first saw “Springtime for Hitler”. The fact that they invited the remaining nine old men, just added insult to injury (they of course, were brutally honest and left soon after the presentation). The reason for inviting us all was for every one to animate their own character – and they were ALL there …except for Pocahontas. This part makes me laugh because at that point, Glen Keane asked, “Where’s Pocahontas?”, to which they assured him that she would be added. As we left the building, I turned to Glen and wryly repeated, “Where’s Pocahontas”? To which he cringed and said, “I know, I know, I don’t know what I was thinking!” So when you think that Disney makes it look so easy, just remember, for every good film that is released, there were many versions and concepts that were thrown out before the final was given approval. That’s why these movies cost so stinking much.

Source: https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=793896563995747

Mark Kausler: Pat [Ventura] and I wound up boarding the very first version of Pump and Circumstance.

Dave Bossert: Oh, with all the princes and princesses marching?

Mark Kausler: Yes. A whole year boarding that.

Dave Bossert: George Scribner was on that.

Mark Kausler: I don't remember George being on it, but I'm sure you're right.

Dave Bossert: I think George was actually going to direct on that sequence and that just flamed out. When Michael Eisner suggested Pomp and Circumstance, there was like an audible groan from people in the animation department because it was like 'Really?' And then the idea of having all the Disney princes and princesses marching to Pomp and Circumstance by Elgar and they are all carrying their babies...

Mark Kausler: And Daisy Duck had a pillow with seven little crowns on it for each of the princes and princesses' [babies]. And Roy E. Disney's wife, Patty, cried when she saw the story reel. She loved it so much, she cried. But then, the rumor had it, and you may correct me if you know better, that Glenn Keane and a bunch of the guys went up to the executives' office, maybe it was Roy. E's, and said 'Of course, you know we're not going to animate this'.

Dave Bossert: I don't know that story. All I know is that there was just a lot of people who were down on that version as in 'There is no way any of us are working on that' and then they scrapped it and they came up with the Francis Glebas Noah's Arc version of what's in the film now.

Mark Kausler: And I animated on that.

Dave Bossert: And you know something? As much as there was this sort of groan about the choice of music, doing the Noah's Arc story with that music really makes it work.

Mark Kausler: Because of the procession of animals and things like that in it.

Dave Bossert: Absolutely. It's very well done.

Mark Kausler: Towards the end of my time on Fantasia 2000, there was a lady named Sara Petty who they hired; she did a wonderful short subject with some cats that was really nice...

Dave Bossert: They assigned her to the Beethoven's Fifth sequence.

Mark Kausler: She was trying to come up with stuff for that sequence and so I wound up doing development.

Dave Bossert: That was the one troubled sequence out of the whole film. The hardest nut to crack was the Beethoven's Fifth sequence.

Source: https://youtu.be/ojYj9rZAI5Y?si=ZKQ9V9_wj7-ZR3DX&t=5261

[Thumper_93]

Thanks for that Sortiris.
I know that the plot is really weird but I think that it could've been better than Princesses from Wreck it Ralph or Once upon a studio. Maybe without the babies it would've been a better idea.
I didn't notice that Pocahontas was not there.

[UmbrellaFish]

The kicker was that at the end of the ceremony the princes all got diplomas where as the princesses all got babies.

It’s interesting how many versions of this story there are, too.

I agree with the sentiment that “Pomp and Circumstance” is kinda a corny choice of music, but that it does work with the Noah’s Ark story, the way the story was told and animated.

Adding Pocahontas to the mix is really interesting, too, since she was a historical figure. Would they have paired her with John Smith or John Rolfe? She did have a child by John Rolfe, through whom she has many descendants today. The real life Pocahontas died before her son was three years old.

[Sotiris]

It’s interesting how many versions of this story there are, too.

I think Nik is just misremembering there. The princes getting diplomas doesn't make sense.

[UmbrellaFish]

I think you’re probably right. It seems like this segment became the stuff of legend as soon as it was screened.

[blackcauldron85]

"Rhapsody on a Theme of Pagani" was really sweet! I wonder why they cut it.

This was the era of In Search of Mickey Mouse; Disney so badly wanted all their characters to be together! This princess short was bananas, though. I agree that without the babies it'd be better (but still pretty weird). It's super neat to see, but I agree: it would have been a pretty weird entry in the canon.

Poor Pocahontas; I love her, but it'd be in bad taste to have her in a "storks sent me my baby" story since she literally had a child.

[AliceDay]

Hi, I just registered to make a post about this because for years I read about this short and always wanted to see this. Never thought the day would come it would be released online!

It's so beautiful. I loved seeing Cinderella's castle in the clouds with all the gorgeous princesses coming out to dance with their princes. The imagery of Ariel and Beast's shadows showing their "true forms" was superb. And Ariel and Eric's baby having a green mermaid tail was so cute!

Besides Cinderella, I got Sleeping Beauty vibes from the clouds and the fairies all hovering down from heavenly light. Loved the group of Blue Fairy, Fairy Godmother, Flora, Fauna, and Merryweather. Chef's kiss.

Was fun to see Alice as a flower girl. And Wendy, Michael, and John. All the Disney fairy tale kids having roles except Pinocchio who is only in the group at the end, I guess cause he's not a real boy. And all the royals standing to welcome the princesses. Aurora's parents got a lot of screentime which was nice. It didn't dawn on me that all the 90s girls have only fathers and their princes are all orphaned. Only the Walt-era princes have fathers.

I wish Pocahontas was there. Her presence was missing as the last princess. 7 is a more magical number than 6 and then each dwarf could hold the princess's train besides just Dopey for Snow White.

I just dream that this short had been made. That Once Upon a Studio was so crummy in comparison. This one is the real deal and my heart warmed from seeing Br'er Rabbit and the Song of the South characters at home where they belong.

I made a list for my own convenience which I will post here of all the characters who appeared.

Mickey Mouse and Friends: Pluto, Goofy, Donald Duck, Clarabelle Cow, Horace Horsecollar, Three Little Pigs, Peter Pig, Paddy Pig
Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs: Snow White, Prince Florian, Dopey, Sneezy, unidentified dwarfs, forest animals
Pinocchio: Pinocchio, Blue Fairy
The Reluctant Dragon: Reluctant Dragon
Dumbo: storks
Bambi: Bambi, Flower
Song of the South: Br'er Rabbit, Br'er Fox, Br'er Bear
Cinderella: Cinderella, Prince Henry, Fairy Godmother, Jaq, Gus, Luke, Bert, King, Coachman
Alice in Wonderland: Alice, King of Hearts, Walrus, Caterpillar, card soldiers
Peter Pan: Wendy, John, Michael, Tick-Tock
Lady and the Tramp: Lady
Sleeping Beauty: Aurora, Prince Phillip, Flora, Fauna, Merryweather, King Stefan, Queen Leah, King Hubert
One Hundred and One Dalmatians: Pongo, unidentified puppies
The Sword in the Stone: Merlin
The Jungle Book: Baloo
Robin Hood: Robin Hood, Friar Tuck
The Little Mermaid: Ariel, Prince Eric, King Triton
Beauty and the Beast: Belle, Prince Adam, Maurice
Aladdin: Jasmine, Aladdin, Sultan

[DisneyFan09]

Wowzers! Storyboards from the deleted “Pomp and Circumstance” scene from Fantasia 2000, with the Disney Princesses and their babies, has been posted online: https://youtu.be/seXzVNRHWTk?si=DHM7gCoGnqV0nD-r

I have to say— I’m so glad it didn’t make the cut!

The channel has another cut scene from Fantasia 2000: “Rhapsody on a Theme of Paganini” https://youtu.be/-14aqZvkjwM?si=B19xDSBHzMu7kCY_

To be honest, after seeing the deleted scene, it was a mixed bag. My biggest problem with it that it felt strange and tacky to see the see the Princesses interacting and having babies. The appearances of the other characters fared better, as they felt more organic and not as tacky (and fortunately looked like themselves). However, the part where all the characters runs over Donald feels out of place, as it clashes with the tone of the short. Still, despite it`s unevenness, it was still cute scene on it`s own right. As it was made with love and affection for Disney`s Universe. But as for the placement in Fantasia`s Universe, I think such a segment could`ve worked as it`s own short, but not in something like Fantasia.

[Vlad]

This would have been something truly special, if they had done it. Too bad they decided to discard it.

[Lavendergolden]

I saw the deleted princess scene on YouTube when it was first posted but didn't realize it had been posted here too. I am a big fan of it because I love the idea of seeing the princesses' babies. All six princesses are the crown jewels of Disney's library. Snow White was the one that started it all. Cinderella revived Disney after WWII. Sleeping Beauty was their most artistically successful and lead to the end of traditional animation for the Xerox process instead. Mermaid was the start of the Renaissance and Broadway oriented musicals. Beast proved that animation could be taken seriously and was an award winner. Aladdin was their highest grossing that wasn't Lion King and started the pop culture/celebrity VA trend. So seeing those films and their princesses honored feels most fitting.

I think seeing the princesses together would have been more exciting in 2000 when the franchise wasn't a thing or just starting out so this would have been a novelty to see all classic princesses onscreen together. Which isn't the case anymore because Disney has milked this franchise so much.

More exciting to me is the fairy scene because we've never seen the classic godmothers interact. I like that they replicate Sleeping Beauty's opening scene but with Blue Fairy and Fairy Godmother as well. But Fairy Godmother looks really out of place not having wings. I read that Walt loved fairies who were full-sized which is why Tinker Bell was the only small fairy and even then, Walt called her a pixie instead of a fairy. He seemed to view fairies as being humanoid in size so I like that because I never cared for the small-sized fairies/pixies.

I also remember reading that an early concept for this sequence had all the princesses get one baby each except for Snow White. She would get nervous because her baby hadn't come but the twist at the end was that she would get twins. Two babies. I think each baby had a different color to their bundle to match the princess. Cinderella had blue, Aurora had pink, Ariel had green, Belle had yellow, and Jasmine had purple. Snow White's twins would be in one red and one white.

Wowzers! Storyboards from the deleted “Pomp and Circumstance” scene from Fantasia 2000, with the Disney Princesses and their babies, has been posted online: https://youtu.be/seXzVNRHWTk?si=DHM7gCoGnqV0nD-r

I have to say— I’m so glad it didn’t make the cut!

The channel has another cut scene from Fantasia 2000: “Rhapsody on a Theme of Paganini” https://youtu.be/-14aqZvkjwM?si=B19xDSBHzMu7kCY_

To be honest, after seeing the deleted scene, it was a mixed bag. My biggest problem with it that it felt strange and tacky to see the see the Princesses interacting and having babies. The appearances of the other characters fared better, as they felt more organic and not as tacky (and fortunately looked like themselves). However, the part where all the characters runs over Donald feels out of place, as it clashes with the tone of the short. Still, despite it`s unevenness, it was still cute scene on it`s own right. As it was made with love and affection for Disney`s Universe. But as for the placement in Fantasia`s Universe, I think such a segment could`ve worked as it`s own short, but not in something like Fantasia.

The princesses don't really interact though. They're all standing together in a procession but they don't hug or laugh or take selfies with each other like they do in the princess franchise now. It fit the DP rule Roy Disney made that they can be posing together but never look at each other or interact directly. You said the other characters worked better because they look like themselves so does this mean you think the princesses did not look like themselves?

[DisneyFan09]

The princesses don't really interact though. They're all standing together in a procession but they don't hug or laugh or take selfies with each other like they do in the princess franchise now. It fit the DP rule Roy Disney made that they can be posing together but never look at each other or interact directly. You said the other characters worked better because they look like themselves so does this mean you think the princesses did not look like themselves?

Alright, fair enough. I know that I`ve should`ve made my point clearer. Frankly, I felt the presence of the Princesses felt contrived, due to how it wasn`t particularly organic. It felt tacky and fanficky to have them in such a situation where they were standing next to each other and having their christening. And yes, the other characters looked like themselves more than the Princesses actually did.

[Lavendergolden]

The princesses don't really interact though. They're all standing together in a procession but they don't hug or laugh or take selfies with each other like they do in the princess franchise now. It fit the DP rule Roy Disney made that they can be posing together but never look at each other or interact directly. You said the other characters worked better because they look like themselves so does this mean you think the princesses did not look like themselves?

Alright, fair enough. I know that I`ve should`ve made my point clearer. Frankly, I felt the presence of the Princesses felt contrived, due to how it wasn`t particularly organic. It felt tacky and fanficky to have them in such a situation where they were standing next to each other and having their christening. And yes, the other characters looked like themselves more than the Princesses actually did.

Ah I see what you mean now. I can understand what you mean about how it felt tacky and fanficy for you even though I don't personally agree. I feel fanficy is more how the princesses come across in today's Disney products and shorts. This felt more credible for the princesses to be honored the way they are. Also just a reminder, since you said the other characters looked more like themselves than the princesses did, that what we are looking at is just storyboard drawings. It's not the final product or even animated so if the short had been animated, then the real animators would have drawn the princesses to look like themselves. Storyboard art is rough and not meant to be exact copies so it's just an approximation of the characters.

[Disney Duster]

Don't forget, Lavendergolden, there were tiny fairies in the first Fantasia.

[Lavendergolden]

Don't forget, Lavendergolden, there were tiny fairies in the first Fantasia.

Good point, I forgot about them because they're not named and not included in merch. Although Disney Dreamlight Valley has recently started including outfits inspired by them which I own in the game now.

I think the Fantasia fairies make sense as being small because they're nature fairies. The frost fairies would be snowflake-sized.

[Sotiris]

Artist Brenda Chapman recalls the development process of the "Pines of Rome" sequence rom Fantasia 2000 and the preliminary artworks offered in the present lot below:

"Mike Gabriel and Hendel Butoy were the original directors [of Fantasia 2000], however Mike eventually moved on to co-direct Pocahontas, leaving Hendel as sole director of the 'Pines of Rome' section of what was then called Fantasia Continued. [Gabriel and Butoy] were keen on the idea of something flying that shouldn't be, like sail boats or ships. That made me think of the sea, and listening to the music, I felt it should start under the surface and not on top. I visualized whales majestically rising up with the build in the music, and the faster lighter music bringing in a more childlike essence of the baby whale. My original concept was to make it more of a migration of whales across a continent from one ocean into another, with whales breaching in storm clouds—but the final piece eventually went in a different direction. Still beautiful and magical."

Source: https://www.sothebys.com/en/buy/auction ... s-pines-of

[Sotiris]

A new Fantasia 'making of' book is coming out.

To celebrate The Walt Disney Company’s 100th Anniversary, author J.B. Kaufman presents the definitive history of the making of Fantasia, from source material to hundreds of photographs documenting the film’s production. In Worlds to Conquer, become a part of the wild ride that was the making of a Disney classic. A Definitive look at the making of Fantasia, featuring hundreds of photographs, pieces of script, and notes and commentary from the creators of the film. Worlds to Conquer delves into the complexities of the film’s development and production and the use of new animation techniques.

Source: https://www.amazon.com/Worlds-Conquer-M ... B0BTXB4394

[UmbrellaFish]

Is that cover art finalized? How fabulous. Would make for a lovely Criterion DVD, too.

There's going to be a new Fantasia 'making of' book.

My brain got ahead of itself— I saw “new” and “Fantasia” and thought they were announcing a third film installment.

This book looks like a good thing to add to my Christmas list.

[PatchofBlue]

Kaufman's "Snow White" book is near Biblical. (Oh, he also has a "Pinocchio" installment!) I'd be eager to check this one out also.

[DisneyFan09]

Awesome news! Despite how the declaration of the press release is somewhat late with it declaration to release it for it`s Centennial anniversary, lol But I guess the book will most likely be about the original Fantasia and not so much it`s sequel.