Elemental

[Patricier21]

I only remember one eyebrow-raising instance, and that was in the end when Ember's dad said he and her mom would now have more time for hanky panky. It made me chuckle though.

The movie was a pleasant surprise. I skipped it in theaters because the trailers were awful and what I read in the official storybook didn't impress me at all. Parts of the world-building felt somewhat off but I tried not to overthink it* and just enjoy the movie. Gorgeous visuals and well-developed main characters, although the crying/emotional water elements were a bit too much and giving them all that characteristic was certainly a choice. The story was all over the place at times and some of the plot points were contrived, presumably as an excuse to give the leads more time to spend together and develop their relationship. Overall I think I liked it better than Turning Red, Lightyear and Onward, about the same as Luca, and slightly less than Soul.

*How are their surroundings made and why do they sometimes appear fire-resistant and sometimes don't? Are Wade and Ember supposed to be the first inter-elemental couple?

Like you said, just don’t overthink it! Don’t forget that in the case of fire and water, just because you put a bit of water on fire does not mean that it’s going to disintegrate that quickly, so it’s not that big of a stretch the way they portray the “resistance” that you were implying here. Perhaps Wade and Ember are the first (or at least first in a long time/relatively known) inter-elemental couple?

[UmbrellaFish]

Were Ember and Wade the first inter-elemental couple? The fact that we can’t tell is another sign of the clunky storytelling/world building. Ember and Wade were literally afraid to touch each other…. which would lead you to believe that yes they are the first inter-elemental couple ever. Which sounds bizarre and unlikely, at least when you compare it to human sexuality… which we are supposed to, this movie is supposed to be an allegory for interracial relationships in the real world.

So maybe, inter-elemental couples are deeply closeted and only meet in clandestine places… society is unaccepting, segregation is encouraged, but actually inter-elemental attraction is common and kept mostly underground. So couples like Wade and Ember might experience a learning curve at first.

But on the other hand, Wade’s boss recognizes them as a couple… which if that was uncommon or even thought to be impossible, she probably wouldn’t have guessed it, right? And if it was deeply unacceptable, a perversion people whispered about— even if she guessed it, she probably would have respected their privacy and kept it to herself if she was approving? Or would have fired Wade is she was disapproving and there were no protections for his sexuality? Well, we know Gale falls for Fern at the end of the movie so maybe Gale was rooting for Ember and Wade because she herself was panelemental.

And there’s the short scene where Ember’s grandmother tells her to “marry Fire,” which again, implies that marrying another element can happen and is perhaps common and something her grandmother is prejudiced against. But on the flip side, there are no depictions of other inter-elemental couples… how cute would it have been to watch Ember and Wade observe an elderly Fire/Water couple? Y’know, if that was a thing in this universe.

Unfortunately, this movie is sort of like Zootopia in that they are both meant to be read as allegories for real life human problems, but if you try and read beyond the most surface level, the movie and the allegory fall apart.




…I can’t believe I wrote this out. I need a hobby.

[blackcauldron85]

“Elemental” Debuts as the Most Viewed Movie Premiere of 2023 on Disney+
https://www.laughingplace.com/w/disney- ... sney-plus/

…I can’t believe I wrote this out. I need a hobby.

I liked reading it. Literally the point of the forum, to share our thoughts!

[Mooky]

…I can’t believe I wrote this out. I need a hobby.

But on the flip side, there are no depictions of other inter-elemental couples… how cute would it have been to watch Ember and Wade observe an elderly Fire/Water couple? Y’know, if that was a thing in this universe.

That right there, that's how this whole issue could have been avoided. By showing that there are other inter-elemental couples that successfully reconciled their differences, you make the whole Fire/Water "conflict" personal to only Wade and Ember, not a general societal problem. (Then again, that would defeat some of the movie's narrative ideas.) I get that Fire people are the latest arrival to the Element City, but the movie contradicts itself on two points: a) glass/plastic/metal cannot be made/processed without some form of fire/heat and then cooling by water/air so we're to assume that at least two different elements were involved in building the whole city, meaning that those elements at some point worked together without one overpowering the other, and b) if a) happened, then it stands to reason that their society as a whole wouldn't believe that elements can't mix/marry and that there would be some examples of inter-elemental relationships around for Wade and Ember to look up to, and they wouldn't be the first such couple.

My head hurts...

While Zootopia does have similar issues, I agree with Farerb that world-building (and its allegories) were better handled there.

[Patricier21]

Were Ember and Wade the first inter-elemental couple? The fact that we can’t tell is another sign of the clunky storytelling/world building. Ember and Wade were literally afraid to touch each other…. which would lead you to believe that yes they are the first inter-elemental couple ever. Which sounds bizarre and unlikely, at least when you compare it to human sexuality… which we are supposed to, this movie is supposed to be an allegory for interracial relationships in the real world.

So maybe, inter-elemental couples are deeply closeted and only meet in clandestine places… society is unaccepting, segregation is encouraged, but actually inter-elemental attraction is common and kept mostly underground. So couples like Wade and Ember might experience a learning curve at first.

But on the other hand, Wade’s boss recognizes them as a couple… which if that was uncommon or even thought to be impossible, she probably wouldn’t have guessed it, right? And if it was deeply unacceptable, a perversion people whispered about— even if she guessed it, she probably would have respected their privacy and kept it to herself if she was approving? Or would have fired Wade is she was disapproving and there were no protections for his sexuality? Well, we know Gale falls for Fern at the end of the movie so maybe Gale was rooting for Ember and Wade because she herself was panelemental.

And there’s the short scene where Ember’s grandmother tells her to “marry Fire,” which again, implies that marrying another element can happen and is perhaps common and something her grandmother is prejudiced against. But on the flip side, there are no depictions of other inter-elemental couples… how cute would it have been to watch Ember and Wade observe an elderly Fire/Water couple? Y’know, if that was a thing in this universe.

Unfortunately, this movie is sort of like Zootopia in that they are both meant to be read as allegories for real life human problems, but if you try and read beyond the most surface level, the movie and the allegory fall apart.




…I can’t believe I wrote this out. I need a hobby.

Once again, you were answering your own questions there also with Mooky‘s assessment below, all of these things you are bringing up are indeed the answers to your own criticisms;With the elements being what they are, and with water doing what it does to fire, then it is very very If not unacceptable, then not very plausible for different elements to have that kind of relationship. They working together to create glass is one thing, but having that kind of relationship and interaction is another, hence why with Ember needing to be in that little ball in order to travel under water etc.It’s implied that they technically CAN Have those kind of relationships, again even if not very plausible and having it work out all that well, but again again it’s just not very common and it’s considered unusual, Like a lot of other things you can think of in our world

[Warm Regards]

Were Ember and Wade the first inter-elemental couple? The fact that we can’t tell is another sign of the clunky storytelling/world building. Ember and Wade were literally afraid to touch each other…. which would lead you to believe that yes they are the first inter-elemental couple ever. Which sounds bizarre and unlikely, at least when you compare it to human sexuality… which we are supposed to, this movie is supposed to be an allegory for interracial relationships in the real world.

I think part of Ember's fear of touching was that she was afraid to fall in love/disappoint her father. There was that scene in crayon (?) that showed she felt she was being pulled away due to expectations.

The idea she had was that her parents sacrificed a lot for her, so her falling in love with Wade (who also introduced new ideas like the inter-elementality and getting her own job, etc.) was going to hurt her parents.

Their society being unaware of Fire/Water pairings could make sense, if the timeline I'm considering is the reality. In Element City, Ember's parents were the first generation of fire people to come to after the other elements. Ember is a college age lady I guess? So maybe in 20 years if Fire people are a small part of the population they wouldn't have many chances to intermingle with others.

[PatchofBlue]

I think there's a degree of prejudice at work in Element City, but I think the more prominent influence is just the simple chemistry of it all. I think that the fire-water pairing is significant in this society because of all the two elements to intermix, these two are the most at odds with one another. Like, air does not extinguish earth. So there's an *ahem* element of suspense to these two potentially coming together.

Wade in particular was a really… er, refreshing romantic male lead.

My sister and I were actually talking yesterday about how we loved that this gave us a male romantic lead who was defined by being completely in touch with his feelings and positing that as a viable love candidate for the leading lady.

[Disney's Divinity]

Watched it on Disney+ yesterday. It was about what I expected, maybe a tad better. I liked it about as much as Onward, I guess. The romance was the best part of the film because it felt like something different from the usual. Admittedly, I didn't enjoy the Ember character as much as I thought I would. The teaser back when made me think her personality was sort of, I dunno, hipster-esque?

Overall, I thought the film felt slightly more childish feel than I usually associate with PIXAR? I think it was probably the generic names. And a couple of things (like the Earth character with the armpit gag) gave me the same feeling that the loud plush toys in Toy Story 4 did that it should be in a Dreamworks film. Probably the cutest little side joke or whatever you'd call it was someone rolling a fire element baby along in a grill. I also liked the look of the scene near the end when Ember is on the bike and the water breaks loose.

Btw, I don't know if I've said it anywhere (perhaps the TLM2023 thread back when I saw it in theaters?), but I adore the new Disney logo that plays before their films. I only wonder if they'll keep it next year? I'm hoping they'll simply remove the "100" part and keep it the same, I like this one more than the older one, personally.

[UmbrellaFish]

The more I’ve thought about it, I think the movie’s biggest problem was being “too real.” If it had embraced the fantasy, it might have been easier to reconcile the uniqueness of Ember and Wade’s relationship. If this is a fairy tale world, then sure, maybe they really are the first Fire and Water couple to ever touch… in fairy tales you accept the nonsense rules because it’s about symbolism, not literalism.

But when you make it so similar to our world… well, we’re going to apply the real world’s rules to that of the movie. And if children aren’t purposefully segregated they will interact, play, hold hands. Ember would have known she could touch Wade from playing patty cake and red rover with other kids as a 5 year old.

[Patricier21]

The more I’ve thought about it, I think the movie’s biggest problem was being “too real.” If it had embraced the fantasy, it might have been easier to reconcile the uniqueness of Ember and Wade’s relationship. If this is a fairy tale world, then sure, maybe they really are the first Fire and Water couple to ever touch… in fairy tales you accept the nonsense rules because it’s about symbolism, not literalism.

But when you make it so similar to our world… well, we’re going to apply the real world’s rules to that of the movie. And if children aren’t purposefully segregated they will interact, play, hold hands. Ember would have known she could touch Wade from playing patty cake and red rover with other kids as a 5 year old.

Again, it’s very likely that even if she did play with the other elementals, they would’ve found other ways around it, and or just would’ve avoided ones like water they would’ve had that (potentially) severe effect on them, She would’ve avoided them. It’s also even possible that she just simply never interacted with any water elements as a kid, again for obvious reasons. It’s not that far-fetched as it’s related to similar things you can probably think of in our world, as there are some people who ban their kids from being with other people of a different ethnicity or even culture, even still going around nowadays

[UmbrellaFish]

I mean, kids play with other kids until adults tell them not to. Even in deeply racist societies. Even if she was forbidden and did exactly as she was told, she would have seen other kids play together… it’s just, if the world of Elemental is based on our own and the elements are meant to represent other races/ethnic groups… it just… it’s impossible for a whole community to become established and in that time, no mixed relations spring up…. no water kid and fire kid played games together…

I mean it’s silly really… if the movie had just said “No fire person and no water person have ever been together because it’s physically impossible” and the movie is about Ember and Wade learning that’s not true… it would have made more sense than the non-committal storytelling approach they actually took. But that would have made the movie less literal and more symbolic and that’s not what Pixar does.

[Patricier21]

I mean, kids play with other kids until adults tell them not to. Even in deeply racist societies. Even if she was forbidden and did exactly as she was told, she would have seen other kids play together… it’s just, if the world of Elemental is based on our own and the elements are meant to represent other races/ethnic groups… it just… it’s impossible for a whole community to become established and in that time, no mixed relations spring up…. no water kid and fire kid played games together…

I mean it’s silly really… if the movie had just said “No fire person and no water person have ever been together because it’s physically impossible” and the movie is about Ember and Wade learning that’s not true… it would have made more sense than the non-committal storytelling approach they actually took. But that would have made the movie less literal and more symbolic and that’s not what Pixar does.

Well like you said, they mean to take things literally, and if water literally does what it does the fire, then she and other elements would know better Then to do those kinds of things with particular kinds of elements that don’t go well together. It’s like why you see her being so very careful and cautious literally every single time she’s around water for Literally being exposed to it For a mere second could completely harm her. It is also possible that other elements could’ve interacted with each other, it just so happens that these particular ones Just cannot mix and or do that kind of thing. And again, it’s quite likely that that others also felt the same and just never tried to combat it. After all, there’s a first time for everything, right?

[Farerb]

‘Elemental’ Morphs From Flop to Hit, Raising Questions Along the Way
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/03/busi ... ffice.html

[carolinakid]

My DVD of Elemental arrived yesterday.

[PatchofBlue]

Although not saying so directly, Mr. Docter also indicated that Pixar had perhaps drifted too far from its storytelling roots.

In recent years, Pixar has allowed filmmakers like Peter Sohn, who made “Elemental,” to explore stories that are more personal. (Mr. Sohn’s immigrant parents inspired his film.) Yet many of Pixar’s biggest original successes, including “Toy Story” in 1995 and “Monsters, Inc.” in 2001, have grown from more universal concepts — “ideas that we all carried around as kids,” as Mr. Docter put it. What if my toys come to life when I leave the room? What if there are monsters in my closet?

Again, this really weird incentive to force this false dichotomy keeps surfacing. Like, where is this coming from? In what universe has making a film too personal ever been a strike against a film? Is it just because that's been a selling point for the last five Pixar movies, and so that's the only way these professional critics know how to discuss movies? Is that what a degree in journalism gets you these days?

Hasn't art ALWAYS been the intermediary for explaining personal experiences to a general audience? Do these guys think that like "Shawshank Redemption" is this impersonal piece of work propelled only by the universal concept we carried around as kids about being wrongfully imprisoned for 20 years?

I demand answers.

[PatchofBlue]

The Journey from Box Office Flop to Hit Was Emotional for ‘Elemental’ Director Peter Sohn
https://www.indiewire.com/features/anim ... 234937483/

“I got an email from someone saying, ‘Because it was doing so well in Korea, that your parents were looking down on you,’ so I started seeing it in a very different way. I lost both of my parents while making [this movie], so that it would do so well there meant the world to me,” said Sohn. “And now that it’s on Disney+, that people have come up to me and have reached through social media, connecting to this second-generation love story, has been overwhelming. You spend so much of your life doing this work, all you want to do is to connect.”

Excuse me while I go sob in a corner ...

[PatchofBlue]

‘Elemental’: Read The Screenplay For The Pixar Movie That Finds A Way To Mix Fire And Water
https://deadline.com/2024/01/elemental- ... 5699775/#!

[twihard]

I give Pixar the benefit of the doubt so I did use disney plus to watch this now. I dont feel bad about skipping it in theaters. Felt like Zootropolis but even less original which is saying something. Felt very cliched and generic with boring names and no proper world building. I didn't like the fire girl and the water boy was okay compared to her but not great either. Also confused as to why the fire people were all Asian inspired. Why would elements have races? If they wanted to make her Asian why not use human beings instead as an interrical romcom?

Pixar should stick with sequels. At least they have classics to make sequels of unlike Disney now.

[Patricier21]

I give Pixar the benefit of the doubt so I did use disney plus to watch this now. I dont feel bad about skipping it in theaters. Felt like Zootropolis but even less original which is saying something. Felt very cliched and generic with boring names and no proper world building. I didn't like the fire girl and the water boy was okay compared to her but not great either. Also confused as to why the fire people were all Asian inspired. Why would elements have races? If they wanted to make her Asian why not use human beings instead as an interrical romcom?

Pixar should stick with sequels. At least they have classics to make sequels of unlike Disney now.

Because then It would lack the creativity and absolute brilliance and metaphor that comes with elemental linking and connecting. I mean do you really think it would stand out or be as good level and creative or Truly be what it’s overall intended if it was just people? I mean yes, they did the Incredibles, but that’s a little bit different with them being superheroes, if you get what I mean?

[twihard]

I give Pixar the benefit of the doubt so I did use disney plus to watch this now. I dont feel bad about skipping it in theaters. Felt like Zootropolis but even less original which is saying something. Felt very cliched and generic with boring names and no proper world building. I didn't like the fire girl and the water boy was okay compared to her but not great either. Also confused as to why the fire people were all Asian inspired. Why would elements have races? If they wanted to make her Asian why not use human beings instead as an interrical romcom?

Pixar should stick with sequels. At least they have classics to make sequels of unlike Disney now.

Because then It would lack the creativity and absolute brilliance and metaphor that comes with elemental linking and connecting. I mean do you really think it would stand out or be as good level and creative or Truly be what it’s overall intended if it was just people? I mean yes, they did the Incredibles, but that’s a little bit different with them being superheroes, if you get what I mean?

I don't think the final product was very creative let alone brillaint. Very shoddy execution. That being said I do agree with your point that if they were just humans then it would not work for animation. Incredibles were superheroes so it worked to elevate from normal to extraordinary. Interracial romance for humans is live-action stuff not animation and wouldn't fit Pixar's theme. but it still feels weird to me that they code an entire element as Asian. In avatar the last airbender it made sense that each nation was themed to a specific race/people but here we aren't dealing with ppl but ppl who are really elements. And if fire is Asian what is earth, air, and water supposed to represent?