The official "Lion King is overrated" thread.

[Super Aurora]

I still think the makers of this movie should be forced to bathe in skunk-spray for the casting of JTT as Simba. I think it would easily be a less painful experience without his grating antics in the first 30-whatever minutes. Simba wasn't even a character to me when words came out of him. I practically saw Magazine Covers and Dollar Signs spewing from where his eye sockets and mouth-void were meant to be. "Like Me Because I'm Popular," "Feel for My Character Because I Have a Hit Show," "My Fanbase is Mostly Young Girls but I'm Still a Real Symbol of Childhood Masculinity and Not Just a Walking One-Liner with Accompanying Hip Wink."

Except JTT played the mischievous, playful lion cub Simba well. How else should he have been played? What would you have changed? Maybe you have blinders on because of your familiarity and intense dislike for the actor, because I thought his performance (particularly the enthusiasm he injected Simba with) was strong.

in addition to that, JTT played the kid lion as a brat. Kids are brats. So it makes sense to find him annoying as a cub

[Disney Duster]

I love Disney animated films as well as Pixar. I just feel Pixar's stories are generally crafted with more depth and layers. Disney Animation certainly does a lot of things right itself though.

I think there is deepness or even layers in Disney films that you have not realized yet. Disney has deep films too, to be sure, and I may even say deeper than Pixar. Are you here because Disney DVDs also distribute Pixar DVDs, and this is the only place for that?

DisneyAnimation88, I asked him a question, because I don't get why he is here if he thinks Pixar is better than Disney. I am curious. Also, you have your opinion, and I have mine, don't worry, now I'm letting yours stand.

Pap, yes, that was a very good explanation. However...I wish Pixar would make the distinction of "everyone is special, but there are people who let the world know they are special, and get the rewards they deserve for that" or something like that. Otherwise, I still must wonder if my first conclusion is right about what they said...while also yours could be, too.

Goliath, what I wrote above, coupled with that everyone can be the best at who they are. Remember, their's subjectivity, and opinion of what is best. Basically, if everyone could be at their best potential, then we could all "be the best" and "be special", but there would be people who are the best at certain things. Perhaps it's hard to explain. But what I said above, with that, is all I can say now.

Wait, no, here's a better explanation: There's many great movie makers, and saying who's the best is debatable, but we all see they are among the best, and they make certain kinds of films, and are the best at that. And we could have a whole world of people who are all at their best, but are different. Everyone's equal but different. All men are created equal.

As for the dream thing, I didn't want to sound like a downer, but I was thinking of saying "everyone's dream comes true in a way, or to a certain degree". But what I mainly meant was that your dreams may not come true the exact way you dreamed it, so people like you don't think they come true, but they do, in some form or way or another.

[Uncle Raccoon]

I don't think Lion King is a bad movie, but it didn't do a whole lot for me as a kid. I thought at the time that I was getting too old for Disney movies, so maybe my attitude wasn't right to enjoy it. All I remember is my brother and sister loving it, and I was lukewarm to the movie. I'll probably still pick up the Blu-Ray since as most have said here, it's visually breathtaking. And it's not a bad movie either, but when it's tested against the greats in the Disney Animated Feature canon, it doesn't hold up that well.

[Goliath]

I found this interesting bit of knowledge just yesterday, and I completely agree with it. It's about Marc Davis' opinion on The Lion King.

It's taken from a 1999 interview with famous Donald Duck comic artist Carl Barks (1901-2000), who also worked in the Disney story department for the Duck shorts between 1935-1942.

Barks was talking about how he feels (Disney) comics are becoming obsolete and how animated films that are being made with help of the computer don't look nearly as good as the old-fashioned ones. Then he says:

"I remember what Marc Davis, one of Disney's 'Nine Old Men', had to say about The Lion King, that they all looked like stuffed lions. Yes, his opinion on animation done with the mouse was that it never quite came up with a real expression that looked genuine, or an action that looked genuine."

From: Donald Ault (Ed.), 'Carl Barks Conversations', University Press of Mississippi (2003): p. 206

[pap64]

I found this interesting bit of knowledge just yesterday, and I completely agree with it. It's about Marc Davis' opinion on The Lion King.

It's taken from a 1999 interview with famous Donald Duck comic artist Carl Barks (1901-2000), who also worked in the Disney story department for the Duck shorts between 1935-1942.

Barks was talking about how he feels (Disney) comics are becoming obsolete and how animated films that are being made with help of the computer don't look nearly as good as the old-fashioned ones. Then he says:

"I remember what Marc Davis, one of Disney's 'Nine Old Men', had to say about The Lion King, that they all looked like stuffed lions. Yes, his opinion on animation done with the mouse was that it never quite came up with a real expression that looked genuine, or an action that looked genuine."

From: Donald Ault (Ed.), 'Carl Barks Conversations', University Press of Mississippi (2003): p. 206

No offense to Mr. Davis as I get his point, but classic Disney also had the tendency of creating overly cute character design for their animals, Snow White and Bambi included. I understand that their movement is far more realistic than in the Lion King, and they had to accomplish far more in their day due to the limitations they faced.

Also, animation by mouse. What does he mean by that? I assume he is talking about the CG stampede scene or the CAPS process, but a great deal of it was still done with hand drawn animation.

[Disney Duster]

Pap, I don't think it was about the cute or design factor of the lions. I'm not quite sure we can say exactly what he meant, but, it seems he meant they looked stuff because the animation put through the computer looked faker than animation done completely by hand.

I have to admit...I don't think that could be possible since the hand-drawn animation was just colored and shaded on the computer.

However, maybe the fault actually landed with the new generation of animators, and how they animated the film in the first place, compared to how they animated in Marc's day.

[Super Aurora]

meh, just an old timer going "back in my days....".

While I agree that hand drawn traditional is the best way to go and I prefer doing it that, I can't see how TLK is "stuff" or faked or badly animated.


i guess haters gonna hate. lol

[Goliath]

@ all: please remember that we don't really know Marc Davis' exact opinion on The Lion King, but that this is Carl Barks paraphrasing Davis from memory. I'm not saying Barks deliberately misrepresented Davis' words; or that he was not remembering what Davis said correctly (because even though Barks was 99 years old at the time, his brain was still sharp as a knife)... but we should simply notice that this is a second-hand bit of information.

I presume Davis had indeed been talking about the CGI stampede scene, or he was talking about the lions looking stuffed even though he knew they were drawn by hand, but he still felt that way, and Barks inaccurately tied it to computer animation.

I don't know if it's old-timers talking about how everything used to be better, like Super Aurora said. I don't know if Marc Davis was like that, but I know from the book with interviews that Barks was very much like that. So who knows...? I just found it interesting to share.

[KubrickFan]

Wasn't Marc Davis one of the teachers who taught animation to the new generation back then? I think it's odd that he would criticize his own students, in a way. In any case, I have to say that he's wrong. There's no CG scene that stands badly out of place in The Lion King, like it does in movies like Aladdin, or Beauty and the Beast.

[Elladorine]

"I remember what Marc Davis, one of Disney's 'Nine Old Men', had to say about The Lion King, that they all looked like stuffed lions. Yes, his opinion on animation done with the mouse was that it never quite came up with a real expression that looked genuine, or an action that looked genuine."

From: Donald Ault (Ed.), 'Carl Barks Conversations', University Press of Mississippi (2003): p. 206

Also, animation by mouse. What does he mean by that? I assume he is talking about the CG stampede scene or the CAPS process, but a great deal of it was still done with hand drawn animation.

Actually, I'm quite sure "the mouse" is a general reference to the Disney studio at that time.

And if I recall correctly, when Frank and Ollie screened the film, they jokingly said something like, "We would have done it better." I'm not sure how much they were joking though.

[estefan]

And if I recall correctly, when Frank and Ollie screened the film, they jokingly said something like, "We would have done it better." I'm not sure how much they were joking though.

I don't think Frank and Ollie were too much against the use of computers, judging by their "old school" cameo in The Incredibles. I always found that to be them giving their approval to the Pixar team, showing that they felt that while using new technology, their films were on-par with the "old school" Disney classics they had worked on.

[Goliath]

Actually, I'm quite sure "the mouse" is a general reference to the Disney studio at that time.

I don't think so. Otherwise, Davis (Barks) would have said: "animation done *at* the mouse..." Barks was specifically talking about computer-generated animation, and compared animation done with the mouse to animation done on a piece of paper.

[Kyle]

And if I recall correctly, when Frank and Ollie screened the film, they jokingly said something like, "We would have done it better." I'm not sure how much they were joking though.

I don't think Frank and Ollie were too much against the use of computers, judging by their "old school" cameo in The Incredibles. I always found that to be them giving their approval to the Pixar team, showing that they felt that while using new technology, their films were on-par with the "old school" Disney classics they had worked on.

Approval? I thought Frank had died by the time that cameo happened?

[Elladorine]

And if I recall correctly, when Frank and Ollie screened the film, they jokingly said something like, "We would have done it better." I'm not sure how much they were joking though.

I don't think Frank and Ollie were too much against the use of computers, judging by their "old school" cameo in The Incredibles. I always found that to be them giving their approval to the Pixar team, showing that they felt that while using new technology, their films were on-par with the "old school" Disney classics they had worked on.

Sorry I didn't clarify, the comment wasn't directed any any use of computers, but of the overall characters, story, and animation specifically of The Lion King. For example, they stated they wouldn't have shown Mufasa's dead body on-screen like that but at the same time I got the impression that they were still supportive of the new generation of animators. Granted this is something I haven't heard since 1994.

Actually, I'm quite sure "the mouse" is a general reference to the Disney studio at that time.

I don't think so. Otherwise, Davis (Barks) would have said: "animation done *at* the mouse..." Barks was specifically talking about computer-generated animation, and compared animation done with the mouse to animation done on a piece of paper.

I understand paraphrasing was involved, but still kind of odd since we know (and as you've already acknowledged) that the lions were hand drawn.

I don't think Frank and Ollie were too much against the use of computers, judging by their "old school" cameo in The Incredibles. I always found that to be them giving their approval to the Pixar team, showing that they felt that while using new technology, their films were on-par with the "old school" Disney classics they had worked on.

Approval? I thought Frank had died by the time that cameo happened?

He did the voice of his character but passed away before the release if I remember correctly.

[Disney Duster]

If by "the mouse" he meant the Disney studio, he wouldn't have because, well, um, he helped make what he thought were good films at "the mouse".

I think by "the mouse" he meant that they were simply put through the computer, had a digital...look. They were at least digitally painted and shaded.

But I'm thinking that he thought even though he helped teach the new generation of animators, the felt that in this movie...I dunno, maybe they just didn't animated it how he felt it would have been the best.

[DisneyFan09]

Wow. Surprisingly many people who thinks TLK is overrated. Unfortunately for you, I'm not one of them.

[Farerb]

Was The Lion King the most hated Disney film around here before the Revival started?

[Disney's Divinity]

Not really, although there was a very vocal hate club for both it and Beauty and the Beast because they were crowning achievements; I say no because they would still rank high in most group rankings of the films back when there were many members here despite the vocal minority. You see the same sort of counterculture hatred of Frozen these days, too, which is why I've always compared Frozen to TLK.

[Vlad]

I think The Lion King is one of Disney's best movies ever, and it deserves all the praise it gets. It holds a very special place in my heart, as it was the first Disney movie I owned on VHS as a kid, and I used to watch it religiously, even though it made me cry every single time (my mom, too ). This one, Lady and the Tramp and Dumbo made me cry a lot.

[DisneyFan09]

Well, now that this thread has been bumped, I could pretty much elaborate my new points of views. As many people, I had my childhood bias for The Lion King. I saw it theatrically three times as a child and was absolutely in love with it. As most of my favorite Disney features, it was my obsession and I had various merchandise and stuff. As an early teenager, I was a little sick of it, due to it`s sheer overexposure. Yet I`ve never thought that The Lion King didn`t deserve it`s success, as it truly is an amazing film, with great components: Visuals, music, villain and an grand and epic story with substance and depth. Even in my late teens (when the Platinum Edition was released), I could truly see how great it was.

However, my adult years have made me less biased about The Lion King for a couple of reasons. I don`t hate it, but it`s shortcomings have been more evident afterwards. While Lion King never suffers from true, serious flaws, it`s biggest problem is that it`s too po-faced and self-important. Not in a gloomy and glum way, but still in a very pretencious way (in fact, it`s more serious than all of it`s counterparts that it resembles: Bambi, The Jungle Book, The Fox and the Hound and even Tarzan. Brother Bear is another case). Another minor flaws (which I`m probably in the minority) are the Hyenas. As an adult I do find them annoying, even though they`re not the most annoying bunch that Disney have come up with.
Another flaws with it are issues that people have complained about the following years: How Simba is an cocky and reckless brat as a cub (despite that I adored young Simba as a child, for the same reasons that children adores the leads: For relating to them). But to his credit, he does mellow and becomes more subdued after the big tragedy (Adult Simba was frankly more tolerable and likable for being more mature and responsible).
Another flaw is how Scar eventually morphs into a manchild when he gets his position. I like the depth of the message, yet Mufasa`s speech to Simba feels more like a preachy sermonizing than an actual consolation (a thing that actually was improved in both Simba`s Pride and the live action remake, no matter how people will dislike me for saying it).

So at the end, I don`t hate The Lion King. I do have my affection for it, but I still don`t regard it as highly as I used to. In fact, it does comes like a departure from it`s Renaissance predecessors and feels more pretentious and po-faced than them (which is somewhat ironic, since The Lion King was the one who converted me to the Renaissance) and frankly, all of it`s Renaissance predecessors are more frivolous and lighter in tone (even though Beauty and the Beast has it`s substance and depth as well). Yet The Lion King is still a great film, nonetheless and unlike Frozen, it deserved it`s hype and success.