Disney Princess Criticism - What's Your Opinion?

[Farerb]

I don't think it's a plot hole as much as it just doesn't make sense.

[Redadoodles]

If it is not addressed nor explained and doesn't make sense then it is a plot hole..

[D82]

Kelly Marie Tran talks about the Disney princesses is a new video. The interview is about Raya and the Last Dragon, but I thought it would be fitting to post it here because of the topic and to not derail the conversation in the Raya thread too much. I completely agree with what she says, and judging by her reaction in the video, I think Awkwafina does too.

I want to be really specific about the way that I speak about Disney princesses. There's sort of a negative connotation about these earlier movies and I don't necessarily believe that. I think those earlier movies are really good. I think the problem is when we sort of have a really narrow perception of what it means to be a princess. And now we're sort of opening up the doors in terms of the types of people that we think of when we think of those worlds. Because there really is nothing wrong with like wanting to be in love or liking pretty dresses, there's nothing wrong with that. The danger becomes when we only see the same types of representation over and over and over, so you think that's the only thing you could do. That's when it becomes a negative thing. So it's really cool that we are part of a movie that is changing that. And Raya is someone who is a warrior; who gets to be really angry, which we haven't seen before; who... Yeah, I'm just really excited for people to see this movie and to meet this character.

Source: https://youtu.be/Ymf5U3cPZNw?t=1168

[Disney Duster]

Thanks D82. I agree with them, too.

[Redadoodles]

Kelly Marie Tran talks about the Disney princesses is a new video. The interview is about Raya and the Last Dragon, but I thought it would be fitting to post it here because of the topic and to not derail the conversation in the Raya thread too much. I completely agree with what she says, and judging by her reaction in the video, I think Awkwafina does too.

I want to be really specific about the way that I speak about Disney princesses. There's sort of a negative connotation about these earlier movies and I don't necessarily believe that. I think those earlier movies are really good. I think the problem is when we sort of have a really narrow perception of what it means to be a princess. And now we're sort of opening up the doors in terms of the types of people that we think of when we think of those worlds. Because there really is nothing wrong with like wanting to be in love or liking pretty dresses, there's nothing wrong with that. The danger becomes when we only see the same types of representation over and over and over, so you think that's the only thing you could do. That's when it becomes a negative thing. So it's really cool that we are part of a movie that is changing that. And Raya is someone who is a warrior; who gets to be really angry, which we haven't seen before; who... Yeah, I'm just really excited for people to see this movie and to meet this character.

Source: https://youtu.be/Ymf5U3cPZNw?t=1168

I agree to a certain extent but a princess is not supposed to fight whatsoever.. It just goes against the basic definition of what a princess is supposed to behave like. However, I do expect a princess to fight back.

[Disney's Divinity]

A leader should and will defend their people if they're worth a dang at all.

I actually think her comments were perfect. It's what I've always said--that Snow White, Cinderella, and Aurora aren't so bad when alongside other depictions of women like Mulan, Pocahontas, Moana, Elsa, etc. It's when you only ever see those same kind of passive characters that they become a damaging and demeaning portrayal. The fact that she's able to say this gives me hope that maybe the company as a whole will adopt this kind of line of speaking about the princesses; if they didn't want her to speak this on the nose about the issue, she would never have said something like that. She probably would've been fed the same line to repeat that they'd given under Lasseter about the new character being a "new kind of princess," yaddayadda.

[Redadoodles]

You do realize that there are other ways to defend one’s people than violence, right ? Anyway, I mostly agree with her statement anyway.

[Farerb]

[Disney's Divinity]

I do hope so. And I can't lie, seeing how upsetting it is for Disney fans in general makes the progress on this front even more important, imo. Hopefully the newer generations will grow up loving characters like Raya and Namaari instead of treating them like something immoral and wrong. Maybe the Wrecked Princess franchise will be beneficial in that regard, too, because it’ll give the older characters more action than they ever got to take part in in those older, regressive films.

[Redadoodles]

Old? yes. Regressive ? No.
A film cannot be regressive when it was the perfect illustration of the time period that it was made.

[Disney Duster]

Exactly, Redadoodles.

[Disney's Divinity]

Children watching today aren't living in those times, which is why they are regressive films. *shrug* At least at this moment in time I don't have to worry because I know the Disney company will keep moving forward regardless, particularly WDAS while Jennifer Lee is in charge, and that's one thing I will give them props for. Still, I will always say what I think is morally right in spite of being outnumbered.

[Disney Duster]

According to you then films like Raya and the Last Dragon will be regressive in a few years.

[Disney's Divinity]

Considering the extent of the behavior of the characters in Raya doesn't revolve around making pies and house-cleaning, no.

[Disney's Divinity]

Raya & The Last Dragon Continues Disney's New (& Better) Princess Tradition
https://screenrant.com/raya-last-dragon ... na-better/

[Disney Duster]

Considering the extent of the behavior of the characters in Raya doesn't revolve around making pies and house-cleaning, no.

That's just yours an others' opinion. I will respect it, you are allowed to have it, but it is just opinion. What is regressive or not is opinion. Women shouldn't feel bad for liking to make pies or clean if they genuinely like it.

[blackcauldron85]

When I sweep, I do think of Snow White and Cinderella, probably every time. In a good way. As in, I'm sweeping like those characters do... I'm weird, idk.

There are things that I like about every princess. I know that the general consensus, if they don't watch and really pay attention to the films, is that the earlier ones just want a prince and that's the only trait that they have, but we know that there's more to the princesses then that. I know that I've mentioned it before, but I admire Snow White- the girl has been through A LOT and she's still so kind, so as "regressive" as she may feel to some people, I think that you can be a homemaker-type and still have more to you than meets the eye. Cinderella, of course, has her humor in her horrible situation, and she's also very kind. I mean, both Snow and Cindy HAVE to do chores (Snow when she is in the castle) because they're being held as slaves, pretty much, so they HAVE to do chores. Snow in the cottage is just a thoughtful person. After they're married, they probably don't have to do chores anymore, but I'm sure that if someone walked by them and dropped the laundry basket or something, both princesses would surely help pick up the clothes, right? Because they're nice, kind people, despite being seen as homemaker-types.

I don't think it's likely that we'll ever see a princess or any main character whose main trait is kindness. Disney Princess Enchanted Tales: A Kingdom of Kindness just is not being released in 2021. But the new princesses are wonderful, too- and it's not that they are unkind, you know? I don't think it's bad to admire traits from the different princesses. You can be sweet like Snow White, but you can try and be fearless like Moana and Raya. You can like how reading takes you to a fantasy world, like Belle, and enjoy dreaming & be hopeful like Cinderella, but you can also try to bring peace like Pocahontas & Anna, and you can explore new worlds like Jasmine and Rapunzel, you know?

But if someone isn't a very courageous person and doesn't want to go on adventures, and really just wants to take pride in having a clean house and make pies, that's not a bad thing, either. I think that there are a lot of positive role models in the Princess line. But some people just don't take the time to maybe appreciate the personalities of the older princesses. And this is not a dig at all to anyone- I'm just defending the girls!

[Disney's Divinity]

When I sweep, I do think of Snow White and Cinderella, probably every time. In a good way. As in, I'm sweeping like those characters do... I'm weird, idk.

Usually I hum "Whistle While You Work" sometimes when I'm doing dishes or mopping. So, not that weird. I think "A Spoonful of Sugar" is another one.

I don't think it's likely that we'll ever see a princess or any main character whose main trait is kindness. Disney Princess Enchanted Tales: A Kingdom of Kindness just is not being released in 2021. But the new princesses are wonderful, too- and it's not that they are unkind, you know?

I don't know, Rapunzel is that kind of character. She has that same quality as a lot of the older characters, in that everyone she meets just loves her because she's so nice, bright, happy, and all that.

And this is not a dig at all to anyone- I'm just defending the girls!

That's how I feel sometimes, too. It often seems like the new princesses are constantly being put down--and usually the reasons why I can't pretend I understand--but I think part of that is because these are characters people here didn't grow up with. I'm sure the people who grew up during the '50s and '60s complained about Belle, Jasmine, Ariel, etc. I remember in the early days of this forum, most of the Renaissance princesses were called disobedient and bratty. A lot of it reads to me like "These characters don't act the way women should be acting, which is passive."

My perspective all along has been that characters like Snow White, Cinderella, and Aurora are fine alongside other portrayals, that they're really only damaging when they're the only kinds of female characters children will see. But I wouldn't be surprised if at some point Snow White, Cinderella, Sleeping Beauty, and perhaps The Little Mermaid as well will end up with explanatory foreword warnings before those films on Disney+ like Peter Pan, Dumbo, etc. have.

[blackcauldron85]

I don't know, Rapunzel is that kind of character. She has that same quality as a lot of the older characters, in that everyone she meets just loves her because she's so nice, bright, happy, and all that.

You know, that's a good point, especially if we're talking about Snow White (since she meets more people than Cindy & Aurora do). I hadn't thought of that, but that is true. Only we see more of Punzie's psychological process (ugh, I LOVE that scene with her having the anxiety. #relatable).

I think part of that is because these are characters people here didn't grow up with. I'm sure the people who grew up during the '50s and '60s complained about Belle, Jasmine, Ariel, etc.

Even when I was a little kid, my mom would complain that in real life, Jasmine would NEVER dress as scantily as she does in the Disney film, and probably something about how she's a man's creation. I'm sure she's not fond of Ariel's seashells, but I don't think she ever complained as much about Ariel as Jasmine. Maybe she gives fish-people passes. My mom LOVES Frozen, and she likes Moana and Raya, so I can't use her as a catch-all for people of her age , but I think that's a good point, that some people might have a "type" that they want Disney Princesses (or characters or people in general) to be, and they'll be vocal if the new characters don't meet their standards.

My perspective all along has been that characters like Snow White, Cinderella, and Aurora are fine alongside other portrayals, that they're really only damaging when they're the only kinds of female characters children will see. But I wouldn't be surprised if at some point Snow White, Cinderella, Sleeping Beauty, and perhaps The Little Mermaid as well will end up with explanatory foreword warnings before those films on Disney+ like Peter Pan, Dumbo, etc. have.

I know that I've read you say something similar. I don't quite understand... I don't see the girls as just waiting around for their princes...like, Aurora in the woods- what teenager hasn't daydreamed about finding a partner, you know? She also has a good relationship with her aunts and her animal friends...she's not just about the guy...and I mean, there's nothing wrong with a teenager acting like a teenager. I just had a lightbulb moment, though- if we only had Aurora, let's say, then it'd appear that Disney is more like "A prince is what matters!" vs. rounding it out with the adventuresome Ariel/Moana/Punzie/Raya, or the sisterly love of Elsa/Anna, etc etc etc, so I think my brain figured out what you mean. And yeah, I wonder if Disney+ has other warnings up their sleeve. I personally don't mind, because as long as the movies aren't censored, a short warning is meh to me, but I understand that some people are more offended (if that's the right word) about the warnings.

[Farerb]

I liked what you said about Aurora, BlackCauldron85. I know she appears very little, but in that little time we already saw her teasing with the fairies and then making fun with the animals and I still think she at least understands her responsibility as a princess, there's nothing to suggest otherwise.
And what you said here:

I don't see the girls as just waiting around for their princes...like, Aurora in the woods- what teenager hasn't daydreamed about finding a partner, you know?

really describes Anna as well, so why does one is seen as "regressive" and the other is seen as "progressive"?

Anyway, regardless of what we think of Aurora, do we really think that Sleeping Beauty as a film is that much outdated? I mean it is the film where three elderly women are in a good-vs-evil battle against a powerful witch. I don't think there are even films like that today.

Regarding my feeling towards the princesses, personally I don't understand why it's a new-vs-old situation, I think people are more focused on this franchise and the way the princesses are presented, which in my opinion is just superficial, than actually understanding the characters themselves. When new "princess" movies started coming out again, I never thought "oh no now my favorites are going to be replaced", I just thought "that's great, new fairytale movies made by Disney". I find qualities I like in each of them and I never thought of making a competition. I know that when I was a child Ariel was my favorite, I had a lot of TLM stuff when I was a kid, most of them belong to my nephews and nieces now. But I think that now as a grown up I tend to identify with the more mature ones like Belle, Cinderella, Tiana, Moana, etc...
Anyway it's fine to like both groups or more than one princess and I wish more people did it.