blackcauldron85 wrote: Tarzan, Dinosaur, TENG, & Atlantis were new; I wonder if they got the jam-packed releases because either a) they were just the newest Disney animated entries, so Disney figured they'd sell great?, and/or b) since DVD existed when those films came out, they had time before the home video releases to put together lots of bonus material. Whereas Hercules debuted only on VHS. It would have been nice if later down the road they would've put more effort into a Hercules release (among many other films)...
That's pretty much it. DVD started being the most sold format so they stacked their new releases with a lot of bonus features because new releases are the thing that make people upgrade to a new format. Same thing happened with Blu-rays 10 years later. Hercules and Hunchback at that point were considered catalog titles and Disney didn't much bother with them, though they did with Pocahontas and Mulan.
Eventually all post TLK films were treated the same when it came to Blu-rays, almost no bonus features (some have non), the sound remained 5.1 while the vault films got 7.1 and to make it more insulting some of them have have the cheap sequel tacked on as if it's as legitimate as the original.
Unfortunately, I think Disney is done producing new discs, any reissue will have the same disc as it did before (even if there's a 4K, the BD will remain the same).
^It's from The Art of Hercules. That particular quote can be found at this point of this video (on the left page). I wish I had that art book. Judging by that video, it seems Disney art books were better back then and included more behind-the-scenes info and not just concept art. Concept art is great, but I prefer a combination of both things.
Thank you, D82.
I agree about the art books. It's a shame that they are harder to find and that Disney doesn't reissue them. I'm sure a lot of people would have bought them now.
Exactly, why don't they reissue them? I also think there are many Disney fans who would buy them. Right now you can only find second-hand copies and they're very expensive.
Thank you, blackcauldron85. I wasn't searching for something specific, I just ran into this and was wondering where it's from because Hercules is one of the least talked about films. Is there anything else that is interesting from Ron and John in this book?
Rebello, Stephen, and Healey, Jane. The Art of Hercules. Disney Editions, 1997.
P. 52:
They started working on Hercules in the Fall of 1993. They were presented 15-30 projects and were asked if they were interesting in working on any of them. They had a project that they already had in mind (not mentioned, but surely Treasure Planet);
Ron: “...mythology appealed to us because, other than that Fantasia sequence, Disney animation had never gotten heavily into that area…”
John: “...And there was another mythological subject Development had that particularly scared us because it seemed to sacred, too complex. We felt we could take some liberties with Hercules who seemed more like a common man’s hero because he was half-man, half-god…”
And they were comic book fans, so they thought of Hercules as “the first superhero.”
P. 53:
Ron: “...We also wanted to give the thing an edge by doing a ‘take’ on it a little like a great screwball comedy from the ‘30s and’40s, where you have an innocent leading man and a more wordly, femme fatale heroine…”
They mentioned that Hercules has temper tantrums and kill people, but there were so many Hercules stories for hundreds of years.
P. 54:
They both separately thought of “having a Danny De Vito-type sidekick for Hercules- Ron thought of him as a companion to provide physical contrast, while John saw him as a tough-guy teacher.”
P. 55 has excerpts from their individual notes from November 1993, highlighting how similarly they thought of the story. Circled in blue on each of their notes:
John: “as antiquity’s superhero;” Ron: “was like a superhero.”
John: “the snakes in the crib bit;” Ron: “bit with the baby and the serpents.”
John: “sports superstar;” Ron: “Think of sports superstars.”
John: “Herc go to the Underworld.;” Ron: “use Hercules venturing down into the underworld.”
John: “His tasks should seem Herculean! Ron: “Herculean effort.”
John: “a Danny DeVito NYC tough guy;” Ron: “Should we give him a Danny DeVito type companion for contrast?”
Some other nuggets from the P.55 notes:
John: “Does he start out a jerk and learn some humanizing life lesson? Is his whole goal in the movie to achieve full godhood and immortality only to ironically become more human and, ultimately, reject godhood?” “Does Herc become a god at the end? What is his ‘I want’?” “Does Herc have an ‘animation’ sidekick? A fantastic being like a centaur, griffin, nymph, satyr, etc.? If so what is his relationship to Herc? Is her a mentor, a conscience, a pet?...How do we keep him or her from seeming like a pale rehash of the genie or the crab?” He likened Herc to Pinocchio, real boy/ god, they both have to prove themselves. “Is Herc defensive about not being the smartest guy in the world? Could he do a defensive song: all right so I can’t do math...but I can carry an ox. OK, so I can’t write a complete sentence...but I can uproot a forest.” “What is his attitude toward women? Is he a thick headed hunk who’s almost oblivious to the fact that women fall all over him? Does he pursue or do they chase him…?” “Have Herc discover his strength does him no good in the romance department. He’s frustrated he can move a mountain but can’t get a kiss from the girl he’s smitten with.” “Could climax of story be Hercules having to defeat Ares the traitor or some monster in order to get back to Olympus where the Titans are overrunning it. He must get there to turn the tide of battle in the gods’ favor (prophecy that the Gods can’t win unless aided by a mortal.” “Do we use the ‘schooling’ of Herc as a boy? Learning the chariot from Amphitryon (treat as high school driver’s ed. class…) Learns archery, wrestling...all skills he will need later to defeat myriad monsters…” “Other possible puns: hit or myth?” “Can Hercules’ hipster pals call him the H-man, or the H-ster, or H. or Herc or Herc-man?”
Ron: “Should part of the movie deal with Hercules as an infant and exploit the comic possibilities in this?” “Hercules at the crossroads, choosing between the easy or the arduous roads is a good bit and could tie into the theme: Success must be earned or fought for. True happiness comes from a job well done, etc.” “The battle with the giants is a good, big scale conflict involving the Gods of the Heavens, the Earth, and the Underworld.” “Hercules went on a lot of quests. Should there be one basic quest?” “Perhaps it is Hercules’ wife or lover who sacrifices herself and he rescues her, battling death.” “Opens with Hercules taken into slavery and tell his story in flashback? Probably not.” “What is Hercules gave up his Godhood for love?” “Leaning toward male and female villain. Make villain opposing Zeus as well as Hercules. Female villain, seductress. Good girl. Bad girl.” “Possibly use the idea of starting on Mt. Olympus. Hercules is put on earth for some reason. Has to perform some task to get back. But ultimately decides to remain on earth with the gal he loves.” “Or: Hercules is born on Mt. Olympus. But through some treachery, or mistake, is sent to earth and raised by foster parents. He doesn’t know he’s adopted or that he’s the son of Zeus. He discovers this.” “Or coming of age story: Teenage Hercules, growing up at Mt. Olympus. Rich kid. Son of Zeus, God of the universe. A little spoiled. Zeus sends him to earth to learn what ordinary people have to go through. He has a rough time at first, but gradually adjusts, falls in love, and finally after proving himself a true hero and learning compassion and responsibility...he decides to stay on Earth…”
P. 58:
Storyboarding took 8 months.
P. 70:
John: “I particularly like it when someone comes up with an idea that solves a problem. Rowland Wilson’s conception of Phil’s Place provided a sense of fantasy and scale. It gave a sense of history to Phil that he wouldn’t have had otherwise—Phil, trainer of heroes, has fallen on hard times and literally lives in a run-down head of a statue that used to be grand and has sort of fallen to seed. Yet, inside it, he has his shrine—his treasure trove of artifacts.”
P. 92:
Sue Nichols, Production Stylist: “When Ron and John wanted from the very start to work with Gerald [Scarfe], I thought, ‘No way.’ Scarfe just does not work for Disney. His style is so chaotic, you can’t do it as-is for production. He has a wonderful style, with lots of loose floating lines, that, for a Disney film, was very aggressive and kind of threatening. The puzzling questions were how do you keep it Greek and how do you keep it Gerald and how do you keep it Disney? People started having mental breakdowns trying to figure out how to do it.”
P. 93:
Andy Gaskill, Art Director: “My first thought was, ‘This marriage of Scarfe and traditional Greek ideas is not going to be a happy one.’ Gerald was the first big limitation we ran up against...A lot of us thought that having Gerald was an interesting, kooky idea that few of us took really seriously. You see, earlier we’d been trying to reinterpret for our movie the Greek ideal—sculpture, design, paintings that are so perfect...The animators would step up to Gerald’s style, go away to work and wind up doing it the way they always did. Ron and John kept pushing it, turning the animators right back around and saying: ‘Look at Scarfe again.’”
P. 94:
Andreas Deja, Lead Animator for Hercules: “[Scarfe’s] work is aggressive. It’s uncluttered, has a smooth elegance and his shapes guide the eye. Of the preproduction work that had already been done on Hercules’ character by Sue Nichols, Andy Gaskill, and Gerald, all of which look completely different, Gerald’s gave me the most confusing signals of all.”
P. 99:
James Lopez, Lead Animator for Pain: “I looked at Gerald Scarfe’s work and thought, ‘Cool.’ ...I didn’t see how it would translate to animation, though. How can we make a Disney movie with characters who disobey the laws of physics and anatomy? In fact, I figured the only practical purpose for Gerald’s designs would be for inclusion in this book. But Ron and John were pushing for it and it got to the point where I almost threw up my hands in the air and said, ‘Guys, I give up. I cannot get this Gerald Scarfe thing to happen.”
P. 101:
There was a retreat with Gerald Scarfe and the Disney team, so they could understand each other.
P. 104:
Andreas Deja: “I showed Ron and John tests I had done of a very stylized Hercules, with big, curly hair, straight lines. They liked the animation but said, ‘He should be more athletic, with a long neck.’ It still wasn’t gelling when I met with Gerald, who had nothing on paper that seemed ready for animation. He had done some outlandish things, like Hercules with a little head, wide neck, a funny face and others that almost looked like a rendering for a live-action film. I thought, ‘Let’s go back to look at some more Greek stuff. Maybe we can capture a Greek type.’ I started drawing a straight nose, Greek profile, big, vivid, sensitive eyes...a big geeky with his slight slouch but friendly, caring, vulnerable, optimistic, and unaware of his looks. Everyone from Michael Eisner to Ron and John saw that one drawing and said, ‘That’s him!’ I still keep it over my desk.”
P. 111:
Ken Duncan, Lead Animator for Megara: “I’d go in and show John my drawings and he’d do a little acting by throwing up his shoulder, tossing off a snappy line and it was obvious John was the best Meg we’d ever have. In fact, I see John as a latent great actress struggling to get out.”
P. 112:
Sue Nichols, Production Stylist: “Technically, it would be impossible to ‘do’ Gerald’s style because of all the lines, scallops and points he uses that make everything harsh. For villains...you can use them as is; for your lead characters, cute little Hercules babies, people with whom you have to empathize, it can be too threatening. We found what the directors liked about his work was the caricature of character—the bizarre stretched shapes, the long, pointed noses. The trick was in saying, ‘how do you take Andreas’s Hercules and make it feel like Gerald?’ It’s in the exaggeration of movement in animation that all of a sudden, it starts looking more ‘Gerald.’”
P. 116:
Nik Ranieri, Lead Animator for Hades, did life-action reference footage, acting as Hades.
P. 123:
Gerald Scarfe, Production Designer: “I was most insistent that Pegasus didn’t become a funny old farm horse. Ellen [Woodbury] naturally wanted to make him a comic character as well, but I said, ‘Even noble people can be comical.’ Pegasus is elegant, but stupid, like one of those grand, amazingly costumed 18th-century figures who are all the more funny when they fall into a puddle.”
P. 124:
Roger Gould, Head of CGI: “The first character to be designed for Hercules was the Hydra.”
P. 162:
John: “We like mythology, the opportunity for fantasy, for bigger-than-life…”
Ron: “Caricature elements.”
John: “...looking at mythological subjects, some of them scared us because they felt too sacred, too complex to have real fun with. We like taking liberties. Of course, we knew that the Hercules story had been done before in live-action movies, but every earlier version had been relatively cheesy. It seemed like a rich, fertile field that hadn’t been explored.”
P. 163-164:
Ron: “...From the start, it seemed like the fun aspect of the project would be in finding the contemporary equivalent to all of the Greek stuff, the new in the ancient, all the way up and down…”
John: “...Like, for instance, the gospel music idea. We felt strongly that a Greek movie with a score full of beautiful bazouki music would conjure a tone that wasn’t as much fun as how we were thinking. So, we thought, the Muses were the goddesses of the arts and they’re natural story-tellers and we are making a musical and we wanted something hipper than a stagy Greek chorus. I thought, ‘Gospel music is a kind of story-telling thing, singing the praises of bigger-than-life deeds, whether it’s a Biblical hero or someone more mortal.’ I also thought of all those great black women’s music groups on MTV and even, a little bit, The Little Shop of Horrors. We thought that sort of, up-on-your-feet, everybody-clapping sort of exhilaration would be just great for this…”
Ron: “...But we also wanted to have rules, a tone for this movie where we found contemporary references and stayed within them. For instance, Nessus the Centaur was, to us, always a biker-Centaur. Well, what does that mean? It means you couldn’t give him a leather jacket or sunglasses, but you could give him an earring, a tattoo and a helmet—although it would have to be a Greek kind of helmet…”
John: “...Like when Hercules beats the Hydra and a lot of other monsters, making him a kind of superhero athlete of Greece, we have him doing all kinds of contemporary-type merchandising stuff, including becoming an action figure…”
Ron: ...”when the throne of Zeus is shown forming out of the clouds, it’s like one of those big reclining leather lounge chairs for sitting in front of a TV.”
P. 190:
Ron: “Our main idea was and is, that while heroic deeds are fine, it’s what’s inside that’s important and…”
John: “That self-sacrifice, doing something for the betterment of the world, is more important than being the strongest guy. It’s that…”
Ron: “That, even if you’re strong, famous, even an ‘action figure,’ you’re not ready to be a hero until you’re doing things for the right reasons, not to gain something or get somewhere.”
I think I like some of their original ideas better than what happens in the film eventually, for instance I think the lesson of learning what true heroism really is - humility and sacrifice, would have worked better if Hercules really did start out as shallow and vain. I like the idea of Zeus sending him to earth to teach him a lesson. It's nice to learn about all the other stuff as well, like the design and their reason for music choice - I read yesterday that Alan Menken was reluctant to do gospel at the beginning because he was afraid it would be too similar to Little Shops, but I'm glad everything worked out because I do think the music fits the film. It's such a shame that Hercules and TGMD are the only M&C films that don't have a commentary.
blackcauldron85 wrote:“Could climax of story be Hercules having to defeat Ares the traitor or some monster in order to get back to Olympus where the Titans are overrunning it. He must get there to turn the tide of battle in the gods’ favor (prophecy that the Gods can’t win unless aided by a mortal.”
Interesting that they considered having another god covertly aiding Hades' plan--which I think I would've liked. I also like the idea that they considered emphasizing Hercules' mortal half as what makes him the person to save the day. (Sort of a "Your weakness is your strength" kind of plot.)
I guess it never really clicked for me that Nessus was supposed to be like a biker guy accosting Meg. I did see the recliner in Zeus' smoke chair though.
P. 111:
Ken Duncan, Lead Animator for Megara: “I’d go in and show John my drawings and he’d do a little acting by throwing up his shoulder, tossing off a snappy line and it was obvious John was the best Meg we’d ever have. In fact, I see John as a latent great actress struggling to get out.”
Listening to most often lately:
Taylor Swift ~ "Elizabeth Taylor"
Katy Perry ~ "bandaid"
Meghan Trainor ~ "Still Don't Care"
John: “...And there was another mythological subject Development had that particularly scared us because it seemed to sacred, too complex.
That's interesting. I wonder what the other project based on mythology was.
“Is Herc defensive about not being the smartest guy in the world? Could he do a defensive song: all right so I can’t do math...but I can carry an ox. OK, so I can’t write a complete sentence...but I can uproot a forest.”
That would have been so cringe-worthy. I'm glad they made Herc naive and innocent but not stupid.
Could climax of story be Hercules having to defeat Ares the traitor or some monster in order to get back to Olympus where the Titans are overrunning it.
Ares being a traitor is an intriguing idea. Maybe they can use that in the remake. They tried having a traitor in the animated Mulan too, but they ultimately abandoned the idea.
Ken Duncan, Lead Animator for Megara: “I’d go in and show John my drawings and he’d do a little acting by throwing up his shoulder, tossing off a snappy line and it was obvious John was the best Meg we’d ever have. In fact, I see John as a latent great actress struggling to get out.”
I recall another incident where Musker acted out the Muses to show the actresses playing them the amount of sass he wanted in the performance.
For instance, Nessus the Centaur was, to us, always a biker-Centaur. Well, what does that mean? It means you couldn’t give him a leather jacket or sunglasses, but you could give him an earring, a tattoo and a helmet—although it would have to be a Greek kind of helmet…”
He still feels that way in the final film, even though he doesn't have a helmet, an earring or a tattoo.
As a lead animator on Disney's Hercules, Mr Bazley worked on the character Amphitryon, Alcmene (The Earth Parents) and Demetrius the pot carrier.
"My parents came over to visit and I was animating a scene. And my dad looked at what I was doing (drawing Amphitryon) and he said, it looks like me! And I said you're right!
"It was the spitting caricature of my dad, and I didn't realise, so there he is immortalised in a film forever, so that chuffed me to bits."
@blackcauldron85: How sweet. I remember Deja talked about putting a lot of his father into King Triton, but I can't remember if that was simply his mannerisms or if he was talking about design, too.
@DisneyFan09: I'd love an animated film based on The Odyssey, although it would be very difficult to cut down to an hour and a half.
Listening to most often lately:
Taylor Swift ~ "Elizabeth Taylor"
Katy Perry ~ "bandaid"
Meghan Trainor ~ "Still Don't Care"
Yesterday I went to my parents house and they have a VOD service there and they had Hercules, so I put it on for my nephews and the film started with the old blue logo instead of the new one.
