Disney Princess Criticism - What's Your Opinion?

[Disney's Divinity]

It was only a page ago. And anyway, the whole thread is titled "Disney Princess Criticism." Feminist criticism is in the description.

[Tristy]

Uh guys? Can we move on to the next thing?

[Redadoodles]

I posted the video five pages ago. That's what I was referring to.

When you play a character like Elizabeth Swan who spends her time being in distress (more than Ariel, Snow White, Aurora and Cinderella combined) while playing/kissing three men (while being engaged to one of them) and then have the nerves to call other Disney characters awful role models for young girls, that makes you a hypocrite.
Keira has no business commenting on what a good role model should be when she was already showing her breasts on screen when she was 15 years old and having a threesome in that same scene while doing drugs and drinking. To crown in it all, she called her character "a very cool girl" and that it was great to play her.

[Disney's Divinity]

Playing a character that kisses boys and focuses on romance doesn't make her a hypocrite. Feminism does not = no romance; just like playing a villain or a character who has sex onscreen isn't against feminism either. Elisabeth Swann is a much more active character than Cinderella, full stop. She protects Will by hiding the medallion, saves Sparrow and Will from execution at the end of the first film, and that's on top of the fact that she becomes the Pirate King in the third film. Knightley is entirely correct in her assessment. The only thing I disagreed with is that she thought about banning the films from her children, whereas I think they're not damaging if viewed alongside other stories with powerful female characters in them. Feminism is about making active, dynamic characters, not about removing dresses or romance or singing.

[Tristy]

[Redadoodles]

Did I say that feminism equals romance ? NO. I said she is not in a position to say what a good role model should be like when her character makes MANY questionable moral decisions and if you're going to call her character active in the sequels, I'll just do the same with Cinderella and her character in A Twist In Time where she saves the day twice and goes after her happy ending and she does that without cheating on anybody.
It's not the first time that you assume things about how I think and try to put words in my mouth.
I'm no longer interested in discussing or debating with you.

[Disney's Divinity]

@Tristy: I understand what you're saying, but what other subject do we speak about in a thread with this title?

Did I say that feminism equals romance ? NO. I said she is not in a position to say what a good role model should be like when her character makes MANY questionable moral decisions and if you're going to call her character active in the sequels, I'll just do the same with Cinderella and her character in A Twist In Time where she saves the day twice and goes after her happy ending and she does that without cheating on anybody.

The character is active in the first film, as I pointed out already. And anyway, Cinderella's sequels were made sixty years laters by people unrelated to the making of the first, unlike with PotC... Actually, that probably has a great deal to do with why she is more active in those as compared to the original classic. Again, making questionable moral decisions has nothing to do with whether a character is feminist or not though, which is why Knightley isn't a hypocrite, imo. Feminists are human beings like anybody else, not saints.

[Tristy]

@Tristy: I understand what you're saying, but what other subject do we speak about in a thread with this title?

Perhaps moving on to something else within this subject and not having a heated argument about one person for a couple of pages. I pretty much said my piece but I stayed out of it throughout most of this discussion. And I do feel we should continue on instead of going back and forth constantly. I'm not picking sides, I'm just seeing that this debate is getting out of hand.

[Disney's Divinity]

I understand what you're saying and the place it's coming from, and yet... Having a pointed discussion is different than a heated argument. When there were more people on this forum, it was always like this, with quotes that would break down point-by-point with a counter position.

[Disney Duster]

Haha you go Redadoodles and farerb! Redadoodles, if you need back up, point out your point was Kiera Knightly is in roles that teach bad behavior being ok to girls, but then attacks Cinderella for teaching the same thing.

[Farerb]

I'm gonna do a quick analysis about Cinderella:

Let's start with the active/passive situation: what does that even mean? I know that 10 years ago people said it because of "waiting for her prince" claims, which I might understand that criticism towards Snow White and Aurora (I don't agree with it because they are not solely defined by that and they do other things in their movies), but when did Cinderella "wait for her prince"? So if it's not that then what makes Cinderella a passive character?

The film Cinderella takes place in a patriarchal world, which does mean the film endorses patriarchy, it just depicts it. The reason I bring it up is because Cinderella, being a woman, doesn't really have many options available for her (and I don't care about the cheap sequels, I don't consider them canon so she doesn't have the option to go be a mice catcher or whatever). Cinderella's options are literally:
1. Stay in her house and continue being a slave.
2. Leave, become homeless, perhaps even be sexually assault.
3. Get married

She even says in the film: "You know the orders. So if you don't want to Iose a nice warm bed, you'd better get rid of those dreams." She talks to Bruno, but she and Bruno are paralleled, she's being abused by Lady Tremaine while Bruno is abused by Lucifer.

Despite that she still stands up to her abuser when she deems the situation worthy enough to fight for like going to the ball:
"Well, why not? After all, I'm still a member of the family. And it says, 'By royal command... every eligible maiden is to attend.'" and it's pretty strong for someone who has been abused since a young age by people who made her feel worthless. Not dissimilar to Quasimodo and Rapunzel. That's not the only instance, when she finds out the prince is looking for her, her first instinct is to drop everything and prepare herself.

But most importantly are her relationship with the mice. Cinderella didn't have to be kind to them, she chose to and not superficially. She chose to give them clothes, breakfast and keep them safe from Lucifer, and I find that powerful because when you're abused and have awful life, it's much easier to either be indifferent to others or take out your abuse onto them, and that's the message of the story. Be kind to others and they'll be kind to you. That's why the mice go through with helping her with the dress and the key. They don't have to do that for her but they do it because she has done so much for them.

So if we're talking about activity/agency, we already have:
1. Cinderella choosing to give clothes and breakfast and keep the mice safe from Lucifer.
2. Cinderella choosing to go to the ball and choosing to stand up for it despite the fact that she might become homeless.
3. Cinderella choosing to make her own dress (yes it was her idea), but not being able to the mice did it for her instead.
4. Cinderella choosing to go downstairs and say "But, you see, I have the other slipper. (BOOM!)"

About waiting for her prince, it has already been said that Cinderella didn't care for the prince, she just wanted a night away from her misery. She doesn't even seem to notice that some guy approaches to her, she doesn't know he's the prince nor does she care. The only time she cares about him is when she realizes there's a chance for freedom and when she does what do people expect her to do other then be prepared?

I feel like a lot of the reading applied to Cinderella is actually a reading of the original fairytale in mind when seeing the Disney film and unfortunately I find it to be quite superficial when the film has so much more to offer, especially the messages of "Don't let abusers take you down" and "Be kind to others despite everything" which I find to be meaningful and positive to both young girls and young boys, so Cinderella shouldn't be dismissed as a film or as a character.

[Disney Duster]

I always loved in the narration how the voice says, "Yet, through it all, Cinderella remained ever gentle and kind." She didn't let her abusers get her down!

Cinderella did not wait for a Prince, but she did wait for something to come her way to make her dream come true. She did wish, and believe in that wish, and be a good person, all of which made her dream come true, but that's not how real life works, which is why it isn't considered actively making her dream come true.

She did help animals who helped her back, and got her stepmother to almost let her go to the ball, and she brought out the dress and the design for it, so yes, that is active, true!

I don't know if Cinderella would have become homeless. She may have been able to become a (paid) servant or seamstress or cook or something, but I don't know if she'd have to live with a man, or a widowed woman, if she had a legitimate job, or live in some brothel if she became a prostitute like Fantine in Les Miserables. Women I don't think could own property without a man until like the 20th century.

So Cinderella could have found some place to go, it just still wouldn't have been that great for her, unless she truly enjoyed sewing or cooking or cleaning, which is possible.

[Redadoodles]

Both Cinderella and Rapunzel have the same background and both got to escape thanks to the help of their love interest.
Rapunzel was manipulated into saying inside the tower by being convinced that the outside world was cruel whereas Cinderella had the perfect example of that same idea inside of her own home (primarily with the step sisters).
Both girls grew up with passive aggressive mother figures who never totally showed their hideous nature until the middle or end of their respective film.

[Disney Duster]

Lady Tremaine never tells Cinderella the outside world is bad. I mean, you can assume that if you want, but it's just an assumption, there's no proof. I'm the biggest Cinderella fan here and I just want to get the record straight.

[Redadoodles]

I never said that was the case. I said that Cinderella has cruelty and evil behavior at its finest in front of her eyes every single day. Blaming Cinderella for staying in there is just as bad as blaming Rapunzel, Anna, Quasimodo or Snow White for the exact same thing.

[Disney Duster]

Oh. Well Rapunzel, Anna, and Quasimodo all go out on their own at one time. And Anna wasn't forced to stay inside...?

[Redadoodles]

Oh. Well Rapunzel, Anna, and Quasimodo all go out on their own at one time. And Anna wasn't forced to stay inside...?

For Quasimodo and Rapunzel, it sounds like you're confusing the action of leaving the house for an event (feast of fools, the lantern ceremony) with leaving for good and walking away from your abuser (which none of them did until the end of their respective films).
The only one that I could see leaving the house on a daily basis would be Cinderella who would probably leave the chateau to go to the market or something.

As for Anna, they mentioned several times that the gates were closed and that the villagers did not even know what the princesses looked like :"I bet they're beautiful".
Also, If Anna could leave the palace at any time and had any friends or acquaintances, she wouldn't be so desperate to marry the first guy that would end up in front of her.
There are many hints to her total isolation in both the dialogue and songs that come before Elsa's escape.
Aside from the staff from the palace, she has no contact with the outside world.

[Disney Duster]

Ok, true, but Quasimodo and Rapunzel try to get away from their abusers on their own in the end. Like Quasimodo saving Esmeralda and escaping Frollo, and Rapunzel saying she would never stop trying to get away from Mother Gothel unless she healed Flynn.

Anna was still not forced to stay inside all the time. I think she stayed inside because she was super sad.

[Redadoodles]

I highly doubt that Anna stayed inside because she was sad. It's made clear that the gates have been closed since both girls were kids. If anything, it's a plot hole.

[Disney Duster]

Yeah. I guess that is a plot hole. :/