Disney Princess Criticism - What's Your Opinion?

[Redadoodles]

You should know that I love all the Disney princesses. Every. Single. One.
Now, you might think I only like the older ones but that's not the case. You only get that impression because I defend them and I defend them because they get attacked way more often than characters like Mulan or Moana. I just like characters with different sides and I can love a strong girl like Kida just as much as a delicate one like Snow White.

For example,my favorite character of all time is Scarlett O'hara.
You can't get more independent, smart,brave, resourceful and hard working than her and YET the girl is completely boy crazy and obsesses over a man for over four hours of film.
As I said, I am all for female empowerment as long as it's done well and doesn't seen forced or calculated.
Some great films were made using a feminist agenda such as The Help, 8 Women,The Hairy Bird,Persepolis or better yet The Magdalene Sisters being one of the greatest films ever made, check it out if you can, you won't regret it.

[Disney's Divinity]

I also like all the Disney princesses (except for Aurora). The fact that Disney films are often driven by female characters is one of the reasons I grew up to be a Disney fan. Cinderella is in my top 10 Disney films, too, and TLM is my favorite film of all time.

I love Scarlett, too. She's definitely a feminist character. Being a dynamic, active character doesn't mean the character is without fault.

[Disney Duster]

Thanks for quoting me Redadoodles, though unfortunately it was after Divinity responded! But you tried, you're a good forum friend!

Farerb, yes, I think Cinderella being kind and trying to be a good person even when her life sucks is really strong, too.

[Farerb]

I feel like dissing female characters or female oriented media and then calling it "feminism" is really missing the forest for the trees. It sort of reminds me of the disproportionate hate towards Twilight, as if women aren't allowed to have their dumb fun but men do (for example: Transformers).

I also feel like focusing on Disney Princesses is extremely superficial. Women's issues are more complex than how Disney portrays women and nothing will happen to a young girl if she likes Cinderella, it's a light-hearted film, it's fantasy. I think it's the responsibility of parents to teach their kids moral values and they shouldn't get it form Disney, but I guess people still like doing that, as if we didn't progress since 2010. Oh well....

[Redadoodles]

I feel like dissing female characters or female oriented media and then calling it "feminism" is really missing the forest for the trees. It sort of reminds me of the disproportionate hate towards Twilight, as if women aren't allowed to have their dumb fun but men do (for example: Transformers).

I also feel like focusing on Disney Princesses is extremely superficial. Women's issues are more complex than how Disney portrays women and nothing will happen to a young girl if she likes Cinderella, it's a light-hearted film, it's fantasy. I think it's the responsibility of parents to teach their kids moral values and they shouldn't get it form Disney, but I guess people still like doing that, as if we didn't progress since 2010. Oh well....

Amen!
It's funny to me that a character like Cinderella gets bashed but another character that is literally boy obsessed like Judy Garland's character in Meet Me in St Louis is regarded as adorable and wonderful (and it is! Esther rocks ) when she spends the entire film spying, obsessing, planning her life around the boy next door that she doesn't even know.

[Farerb]

This conversation actually reminds me of The Lord of the Rings and while it doesn't have many women in it, it does have three women who are very different from one another and each one is strong in her way, whether it's Galadriel who is a powerful and wise ruler, or Eowyn who challenges women's social roles and fight for the ones whom she loves, or even Arwen who stands up to what she believes and continues to have hope and faith when all is dark. But what I really like in The Lord of the Rings is that it doesn't pit one against the other, it doesn't say that Eowyn is better than Arwen just because she fights and Arwen doesn't, and I find it really refreshing cause there's a tendency to do that in other media (like Game of Thrones).

[Redadoodles]

I don't think any princess is better than the other. That's my point. They're all great in their own way even though I have big issues with some of them, I still love them all.

[Farerb]

I don't think any princess is better than the other. That's my point. They're all great in their own way even though I have big issues with some of them, I still love them all.

Same here

[Disney Duster]

You know, I realized Disney's Divinity is being hypocritical in saying Belle saved the Beast with her love even with the Beast's help, but not acknowledging Cinderella saved herself with her glass slipper idea and the Prince's help.

I love the princesses who I find "princessy" and European-influenced. This includes Tiana because America is European-influenced.

[Disney's Divinity]

I don't think any princess is better than the other. That's my point. They're all great in their own way even though I have big issues with some of them, I still love them all.

Not all are feminist characters though, unfortunately, and Knightley / feminists in general are right about that. I can enjoy characters like Cinderella, Ariel, and Snow White on a surface level while still acknowledging their flaws from a feminist lens. That's what it means to be rational, but fanbases and rationality don't often mix as this forum evidences.

[Farerb]

The person who used the word "trash" to describe a young actress (a real person and not even a fictional character) just because it was rumored she might play Ariel is talking about feminism and rationality

[Disney's Divinity]

Forgive me for interrupting your misinformation and stalking tour with the truth, but I called Zendaya a "trash actress." And she still is. If you think she's a good actress, you're entitled to that opinion... That's all. Hopefully Redadoodles will take us back to being on-topic.

[Farerb]

Okay, well I'm going to be honest here for a minute:
1. First of all, I don't stalk you, I just have a good memory.
2. Don't really see a difference between "trash" and "trash actress" and I don't really have a particular feeling about Zendaya, but I personally don't use a derogatory term to describe a person or his abilities. I might have used that word to describe films, but okay. If you don't like her acting that's fine, I personally like to more balanced about this things. For example: "I don't like that she does this or that", but whatever, you do you.

What I really wanted to say is that I don't get why you are like this. Up until the point you decided to be hostile towards me, I didn't really have any issues with you (with the exception of being mean spirited to others), honestly never understood why you started being like this. Everyone has their opinions, but why do you take everything so personally?, but if you wanted to think I hated you or that I'm your worst enemy, you're allowed to, I never thought that way about you but whatever, once again you do you. I just don't get the need to constantly be passive aggressive constantly mentioning me indirectly with personal insults? What did give you? Are you honestly happier after behaving like this? At first I thought that you might need to cool down and that's maybe the way you need to do it so I let it slide, but then you kept doing that so I pushed back regretting it eventually, so I spoke with Sotiris and thought there was an agreement and for a time you really stopped doing this but nope, still doing this and then I'm joing in.
So what's the deal? Does it truly make you happy? Being hostile like this? Making mean-spirited comments? Coming to arguments with bad faith? Or can you just "ignore" me in peace? Truly ignore me and not just making insults at me and what not?

[Disney's Divinity]

Maybe there are things you have taken as mentions of you that weren't. You're not the only person on here who has derided feminism or feminists. It's not like I said, "That person who hates Frozen on here, you all know who I'm talking about heh heh." If I make a blanket statement, it's most likely not in reference to you, which is why I say "the forum," which is a plural. If you take it as a direct reference to you, that's out of my control. Terms like SJWs get thrown around here casually and regularly (again, likely not by you) to refer to wide swaths of people despite being general politically-charged insults, which is why I don't see anything wrong with categorizing opposing behavior my own way likewise. I've had disagreements with many others on the subject of feminism in Disney films here--Tristy, nomad, unprincess, etc. etc. But I didn't and don't plan to avoid a topic just because something I say on the subject might be construed as something personal by you when I've avoided talking to you for months. I've been talking about feminism on this forum going back to 2005. It's not intended as a slight against you, just like a critique of Cinderella as a passive, regressive character (among a long list of other characters) is not a targeted attack against Disney Duster. These are similar things I've said about these characters for years long before the remakes or their threads or my interactions with either of you even existed. If anything, I’ve softened what I would’ve said naturally just to avoid this nonstop call-and-response from the two of you to no avail. So really, I’m not getting anything out of censoring myself, which is why I’m just calling a spade a spade. If you both want to circle like vultures to try to intimidate someone, feel free, but you won't stop me.

[Farerb]

Here we go again with the "derided feminism". Why? Because I don't think that what they did with the remakes is empowerment? That's the only thing you need to conclude that someone is anti-feminist?
Also I don't hate Frozen. I'm critical of it, but that doesn't mean I hate it.
And people aren't stupid, when you make a comment about "someone" right after "that person" made a post then it's pretty apparent who you are talking about. Maybe if you commented on the subject rather than talking about the person talking about the subject, no one will assume anything?

[Disney's Divinity]

Oh, God. I just said I was not referring to you. If you take it that way, that's on you. I really don't give two shits what you assume because you don't run this forum and I don't answer to you.

[Farerb]

You just said "You're not the only person on here who has derided feminism or feminists." How is it not talking about me?
Whatever, you do you.

[Redadoodles]

I don't think any princess is better than the other. That's my point. They're all great in their own way even though I have big issues with some of them, I still love them all.

Not all are feminist characters though, unfortunately, and Knightley / feminists in general are right about that. I can enjoy characters like Cinderella, Ariel, and Snow White on a surface level while still acknowledging their flaws from a feminist lens. That's what it means to be rational, but fanbases and rationality don't often mix as this forum evidences.

Feminism is about choice. Snow White, Cinderella and Aurora chose to be with their men so it should stop there.
Since when every single one of them needs to be a feminist anyway ? Do you have to drag back this feminist theme over and over again ? Keira Knightley is a hypocrite and a fake feminist so who cares about what her opinion is to begin with. At least, Emma Watson or Emma Thompson are consistent in their views but Keira Knightley is not. She howls that she is a feminist only when it benefits her and she seems to confuse being a woman of power with being a feminist.

[Disney's Divinity]

Feminism is about choice. Snow White, Cinderella and Aurora chose to be with their men so it should stop there.
Since when every single one of them needs to be a feminist anyway ? Do you have to drag back this feminist theme over and over again ? Keira Knightley is a hypocrite and a fake feminist so who cares about what her opinion is to begin with. At least, Emma Watson or Emma Thompson are consistent in their views but Keira Knightley is not. She howls that she is a feminist only when it benefits her and she seems to confuse being a woman of power with being afeminist.

The only reason this thread is even at the top of the page was because you were going on a tirade about Keira Knightley's feminist criticism of Cinderella and Ariel... If you didn't want to talk about it except to receive agreement, why bring it up? Knightley's not a fake feminist, imo.

[Redadoodles]

That was like 5 pages ago. I never thought it would drag out like this. It was one of my first posts and I almost regret posting it. Apparently, it just got people fighting.