Pocahontas vs Mulan

[moviefan12]

I too have to go with Mulan and I love the little quip about Merida because I do feel like Mulan is the better version of what Merida was trying to be. She is brave, selfless, and kind. Pocahontas, I gotta be honest and say that I remember very little about her other then what she looks like. Though I do like "Colors of The Wind" and "Just Around The Riverbend" but other then that, yeah I really don't recall much about her.

[blackcauldron85]

First off, just putting it out there that Pocahontas is one of my favorite movies ever, so I may have some slight bias.

Pocahontas has a huge sense of duty and responsibility to her village. At the same time, we see her playful side with Nakoma, Meeko, and Flit. She has her head on straight; she's a balanced young woman.

Something that I love about Pocahontas, both the character and even more the films, is the fact that her relationships are realistic. She has the arranged-marriage thing going on with Kocoum, that other princesses had (Jasmine and Merida), and she was very conflicted about it (sense of duty and responsibility to her village). Then she has her relationship with John Smith (and she chooses to stay in her village!). Then she has her relationship with John Rowlfe. I like that Disney showed a realistic situation. People can have more than one relationship; not everyone has that one person that's their happily-ever-after from the get-go. That's so realistic, and I've always appreciated that.

And like I said, Pocahontas has a sense of duty. I just wrote about sense of duty in relation to Jasmine & Merida in another thread, and Pocahontas had the balance pretty down pat that took the events in the movies for Jasmine, Merida, & their parents to get. "Should I marry Kocoum? Is all my dreaming at an end?" Pocahontas was torn, she knew that she wanted to be happy. Pocahontas isn't rebellious like Jasmine and Merida were. And I'm not saying that I don't admire that rebelliousness, because I do. But I think there's something to be said for Pocahontas doing what she has to do; at the end of the day, had John Smith not come into the picture, she probably would have married Kocoum to fulfill her obligations as princess/first daughter/whatever. And who knows, maybe there was more to Kocoum than being "so serious!"

Saying all that, obviously Mulan is extremely admirable. She is absolutely one of the bravest Disney characters, and I admire her for taking her father's place. She was willing to die for her father to stay alive. And I, too, relate to "Reflection" very much. Both women have a sense of duty that is extremely refreshing.

[Avaitor]

I find Mulan the better film. Oh, and... "Just Around the Riverbend" > "Reflection" > "Colors of the Wind."

Can I co-sign this?

[disneyphilip]

Mulan, without question. Her inability to fit in with society's notions about at women should be like, her isolation amongst men as well, her well-portrayed selfless sacrifice, and of course the transgender subtext make her a far stronger character. Pocahontas is not as dull as many label her as, but I find it hard to like someone who falls for a colonialist thug.

John Smith is not a thug!!!

And there's nothing dull about Pocahontas either!!!

[disneyphilip]

Something that I love about Pocahontas, both the character and even more the films, is the fact that her relationships are realistic. She has the arranged-marriage thing going on with Kocoum, that other princesses had (Jasmine and Merida), and she was very conflicted about it (sense of duty and responsibility to her village). Then she has her relationship with John Smith (and she chooses to stay in her village!). Then she has her relationship with John Rowlfe. I like that Disney showed a realistic situation. People can have more than one relationship; not everyone has that one person that's their happily-ever-after from the get-go. That's so realistic, and I've always appreciated that.

How dare you bring up that non-canonical woman-stealer John Rolfe! You know it's not wise to bring him up!

[thedisneyspirit]

Disneyphilip calm down!

[disneyphilip]

Disneyphilip calm the fuck down!

Not until yahoos such as yourself come to your senses and realize that cursing is strictly forbidden on these boards! Kids could read these boards, you know!

[Atlantica]

disneyphilip, you are coming off as being completely hysterical, please calm down and think before writing. I can't ever tell if you are joking or not.

[thedisneyspirit]

Disneyphilip calm the fuck down!

Not until yahoos such as yourself come to your senses and realize that cursing is strictly forbidden on these boards! Kids could read these boards, you know!

And you should stop using that " " signal.

Seriously, in all your posts, all you do is get angry with people who even say the smallest things. Getting over a bitchfest because someone just mentioned John Rolfe?

You should know first the history of the real Pocahontas before getting all up in arms over the Disney version. (And yes, Smith was a colonialist)

[Escapay]

Hopefully, third time is the charm.

<puts on Moderator Cap>

I am not naming any names, as certain posts speak for themselves.

On this forum, as in real life, everyone is entitled to their (preferably informed) opinion. Nobody is entitled to tell anyone to not have that opinion. And nobody is entitled to dispute it with such childish language. For everyone, grow up. This is a forum, not a playground.

<takes off Moderator Cap>

And on another note for EVERYONE: please stop abusing the "Report Message" option if the slightest things offend you. Using "Report Message" does not guarantee action, it simply brings attention of the message the the moderators, who will handle it at their discretion. It is not a personal service in which one can order the moderators to do their bidding.

Finally, just a simple reminder to everyone:

Anyone who signs up to join UD also agrees to follow our Rules & Guidelines. Many of these rules are common sense, while others seem to exhibit flexibility with posters. Namely with rule #20:

Use of foul or offensive language is not acceptable nor is engaging in hate speech of any kind.

For our sanity, we do not list all the language or words that would be considered offensive. And if *we* know what words could be offensive, we would presume that everyone else does, too. Use better judgment, err on the side of caution, and simply do not use that language/word. This is not limited to just certain foul language, but to any type of language that is intentionally mean-spirited or insulting towards anything (not just towards other members). Once again, this is a forum, not a playground.

Albert

[disneyphilip]

Hopefully, third time is the charm.

<puts on Moderator Cap>

I am not naming any names, as certain posts speak for themselves.

On this forum, as in real life, everyone is entitled to their (preferably informed) opinion. Nobody is entitled to tell anyone to not have that opinion. And nobody is entitled to dispute it with such childish language. For everyone, grow up. This is a forum, not a playground.

<takes off Moderator Cap>

And on another note for EVERYONE: please stop abusing the "Report Message" option if the slightest things offend you. Using "Report Message" does not guarantee action, it simply brings attention of the message the the moderators, who will handle it at their discretion. It is not a personal service in which one can order the moderators to do their bidding.

Finally, just a simple reminder to everyone:

Anyone who signs up to join UD also agrees to follow our Rules & Guidelines. Many of these rules are common sense, while others seem to exhibit flexibility with posters. Namely with rule #20:

Use of foul or offensive language is not acceptable nor is engaging in hate speech of any kind.

For our sanity, we do not list all the language or words that would be considered offensive. And if *we* know what words could be offensive, we would presume that everyone else does, too. Use better judgment, err on the side of caution, and simply do not use that language/word. This is not limited to just certain foul language, but to any type of language that is intentionally mean-spirited or insulting towards anything (not just towards other members). Once again, this is a forum, not a playground.

Albert

Well, then, when are you going to finally remove the "f" word from thedisneyspirit's post?!

[Escapay]

It is up to thedisneyspirit to decide if she wishes to change her post. Likewise, you would need to edit your post in which you quote her post. Aside from severe cases, we are moderators, not censors. We are not ordering anyone to do anything, although I highly suggest that the posts in question be revised. Be responsible with your words, don't leave it to others to change your voice.

If more must be said on the subject, please do so within the Feedback forum, and keep this thread on-topic from now on.

Albert

[DisneyFan09]

I too have to go with Mulan and I love the little quip about Merida because I do feel like Mulan is the better version of what Merida was trying to be. She is brave, selfless, and kind. Pocahontas, I gotta be honest and say that I remember very little about her other then what she looks like. Though I do like "Colors of The Wind" and "Just Around The Riverbend" but other then that, yeah I really don't recall much about her.

Sorry for bumping this thread, but I have some thoughts about this comparison.

When I was younger, I instantly compared Pocahontas to Mulan due to them both being non-Caucasian title characters where their Native culture was highly represented. Though they physically doesn't resemble each other, their hairs are quite similar (when Mulan stands and sees her father being called for war, her hair blows in the exact same way as Pocahontas' hair).

Either way, though both premises aren't identical, they still have a theme in common; Invasion by foreigners (which are the antagonists) and a war between the races. Both of the heroines serves as a key in that war, but Mulan's agenda is a complete opposite as Pocahontas'. And both of them falls in love with the handsome Captain, though the romance is more crucial in Pocahontas. Though John Smith is being labeled as dull by the majority, I like his personality and frankly he does have it more than Shang. It's also notable that both films have a villain that isn't perceived as the best Disney villains, despite that I prefer Ratcliffe over Shan-Yu (at least Ratcliffe, for all his faults, had a funny charm, whereas Shan-Yu is just bleak).

Both Mulan and Pocahontas have a grandma, but despite Grandmother Willow not being a physical character, their dynamic is more crucial than Mulan's dynamic with her grandma. Both of them have tall, patriarchal fathers who scolds them for disgracing them (but both relationships are crucial).

And just a note; It's notable that every non-White Disney female lead has been compared to Pocahontas ever since. But due to her being the first non-White lead from Disney, it's not exactly strange. But frankly of all the following, perhaps Moana deserves the comparison the most, for actually being a Chieftess and to fulfill her role.

[blackcauldron85]

http://thegameofnerds.com/post/15770698 ... ke-gabriel

A really good interview with Mike Gabriel, and the production of Pocahontas, and his thoughts on the ""white saviour” type of storyline."

[JeanGreyForever]

http://thegameofnerds.com/post/15770698 ... ke-gabriel

A really good interview with Mike Gabriel, and the production of Pocahontas, and his thoughts on the ""white saviour” type of storyline."

Thanks for posting. It's refreshing for a change to hear praise for the film's accuracy. People always complain about John Smith and Pocahontas never having had a relationship, but their love story has always been central to American history, whether it's true or not, long before Disney came in the picture. On top of that, as pointed out by Gabriel, different tribes have different histories on Pocahontas so some of them actually do believe they were together, while others deny this. Even her marriages with Kocoum and John Rolfe have different stories depending on the tribe, so there's not one central story that's considered historically accurate, which is why I don't see why this movie gets so much flack for not being historically accurate (you never see Anastasia get this). Especially since this is a Disney movie so did anyone expect that this film would actually be a history lesson that would portray every little gritty detail of genocide and act as a documentary. I wish this movie got more love and I see it as a classic especially with the character designs, animation, and music. If anything, I see it as the Renaissance's version of Sleeping Beauty, which despite criticisms about the blandness of the characters and the plot, is still regarded as a classic today because everything else it did was so superior. I have heard though that this film is better regarded in Europe, especially Norway, so it's nice that it still gets some positive attention somewhere else.

I also loved the anecdote about Russell Means' daughter resembling Pocahontas. Especially since so many people decried her appearance and said she was sexed up to resemble a Baywatch babe and didn't look anything like a Native American.

I've never really thought of Pocahontas as a white savior movie, especially since Pocahontas is the one who bridges both sides. The most you could say is that she becomes savior of her people through her love for a white man, but even that is questionable considering she's willing to let him die until she remembers her dream from the compass.

[DisneyFan09]

Thanks for posting. It's refreshing for a change to hear praise for the film's accuracy. People always complain about John Smith and Pocahontas never having had a relationship, but their love story has always been central to American history, whether it's true or not, long before Disney came in the picture.

This is really one of my main concerns with the criticism. Though the criticism is on one hand understandable, people picks on Disney as like they were the ones to invent the Romeo and Juliet-premise which the Pocahontas story is associated with and that's unfair.

which is why I don't see why this movie gets so much flack for not being historically accurate (you never see Anastasia get this).

Perhaps because Pocahontas dealt with American history and dealt with a clash between two races, whereas Anastasia (despite dealing with another subject matter) had been filmed priorly and therefore the premise was being familiar. Besides, Anastasia has received flack as well, but it was better critically received than Pocahontas and therefore was Pocahontas even easier to pick on.

I have heard though that this film is better regarded in Europe, especially Norway, so it's nice that it still gets some positive attention somewhere else. .

Really? Where are your source for that? Norwegian critics were mostly lukewarm towards the movie when it was released.

[blackcauldron85]

Adult Swim Series’ Surprise Episode Makes a Big Deal of Disney’s “Mulan” Fast Food Tie-In
http://www.laughingplace.com/w/blogs/di ... -food-tie/

I watched this on April Fools Day with my husband, since he's a huge Rick & Morty fan. It was funny...

[blackcauldron85]

...and while not Disney's Pocahontas, in my "This Day in History" this morning:

1614:Pocahontas marries John Rolfe
http://www.history.com/this-day-in-hist ... john-rolfe

[WarriorDreamer]

Pocahontas because shes hotter.

Haha I can be shallow sometimes.

But in all seriousness Mulan seems like the stronger, braver person. Poca is more like the peacekeeper, but she seems more like the kinda gal I'd like to hang with.

[blackcauldron85]

Adult Swim Series’ Surprise Episode Makes a Big Deal of Disney’s “Mulan” Fast Food Tie-In
http://www.laughingplace.com/w/blogs/di ... -food-tie/

I watched this on April Fools Day with my husband, since he's a huge Rick & Morty fan. It was funny...

McDonald's Szechuan Sauce From 1998 Just Sold for $14K on Ebay
http://time.com/4744570/mcdonalds-szechuan-sauce-ebay/