The Renaissance v. the Lasseter Era

[Disney's Divinity]

Choose one film for each number.

I'm guessing this topic is going to recur, so let's get it over with. I'll post my picks and comments later (if you haven't already seen them where I voted). Feel free to rank all the films in order, too, and discuss why you feel that way.

*I had Meet the Robinsons v. The Great Mouse Detective and Oliver & Company v. Bolt because Lasseter was involved with those two and M&C and Ashman had connections to the other two (not to mention they were both successful before TLM), but the poll could only have 15 options, so... Here's a posting template:

Meet the Robinsons v. The Great Mouse Detective
Bolt v. Oliver & Company
The Princess and the Frog v. The Little Mermaid
Winnie the Pooh v. The Rescuers Down Under
Tangled v. Beauty and the Beast
Wreck-It Ralph v. Aladdin
Frozen v. The Lion King
Big Hero 6 v. Pocahontas
Zootopia v. The Hunchback of Notre Dame

[Tangled]

Some of the parallels are eerie.

Like, you've got under appreciated movies that largely play on nostalgia for classic entertainment and introduce a new tone for the movies to come (Great Mouse Detective vs. Meet the Robinsons), movies about dogs learning how to belong in modern day society (Oliver and Co. vs. Bolt), movies that kickstart a new era of musicals with strong female leads (TLM vs. Patf), the only two sequels so far in the Disney Animated Canon (The Rescuers 2 vs. WtP), movies that further bring dazzling musicals into the mainstream (Tangled vs. BatB), the two largest Disney musicals ever that became merchandise-selling phenomenons (TLK vs. Frozen), and "mature", darker movies that handle themes of prejudice and finding a useful place in society (THoND vs. Zootopia).

Also, I'm apparently one of the few here who sees Big Hero 6 as a much better film than Pocahontas.

[Flanger-Hanger]

I won't bother with direct comparisons or trying to define "eras". All I know is that thus far I'm enjoying this decade's (2010-2019) output by Disney Feature Animation more than the 90s.

Also, I'm apparently one of the few here who sees Big Hero 6 as a much better film than Pocahontas.

Pocahontas has excellent music and art direction, but that's it. As a dramatic romance it falls short of its potential. Big Hero 6 is a great superhero origin movie that more than succeeds as what it sets out to do. I'm not surprised that this site prefers the musical movie they are nostalgic for.

[tweeb²]

Even with the nostalgia being a huge part of the Renaissance: the first movie I ever saw on a theatre was Oliver & Co, and I remember watching it at a very young age and being afraid of the big images on screen. The big movies where the disney movies, period, TLM, BaTB, Aladdin, TLK, Pocahontas...

And even with all that going for the 90's Disney...I must say I'm vey impressed with the new ones, to the point of being a little jealous of the little kids today, specially with Zootopia or Wreck it Ralph.

The thing that wins for me is the "nostalgia glasses effect" of course, you are a kid, the Renaissance movies are amazing on their own right, and I do miss the 2D style now that is all 3D minus TPaTF and Winnie the Pooh, but if I put on perspective the fact that nostalgia is, naturally, so strong having been a child through those years and watching them being that good is amazing, even more now that I'm an adult and not as impressionable as I was as a kid.

(Did you use to think that when you grew up there would be a point where you just wouldn't like cartoons anymore? I did think that watching older people not liking animation that much)

[Disney's Divinity]

Also, I'm apparently one of the few here who sees Big Hero 6 as a much better film than Pocahontas.

Pocahontas isn't one of my favorites, but I found BH6 the definition of beige, personally. Really the only good things I remember about the movie were the older brother (who wasn't in most of it) and the robot. And the background designs.

I only put them that way by order of release, but having them sit side by side is a little eerie.

Pocahontas has excellent music and art direction, but that's it. As a dramatic romance it falls short of its potential. Big Hero 6 is a great superhero origin movie that more than succeeds as what it sets out to do. I'm not surprised that this site prefers the musical movie they are nostalgic for.

We'll have to agree to disagree there. Because if I watched BH6 after any of my favorite superhero films--and that includes The Incredibles--it falls flat.

I have to be honest, I do like most of the new films and it's a better decade than the '00s by a long shot, but I won't lie--it's not anywhere close to the '90s so far. Would nostalgia be the only possible reason someone could think that a group of TLM, B&tB, Aladdin, TLK, Mulan, and Tarzan are better than these films? I consider all of them to be equal to better than anything from this decade, objectively (and I would add Hercules to that list if I were being subjective).

[Flanger-Hanger]

Would nostalgia be the only possible reason someone could think that a group of TLM, B&tB, Aladdin, TLK, Mulan, and Tarzan are better than these films?

Of course not, I personally prefer The Little Mermaid to most, if not all, of this current decade's titles.

When I brought up nostalgia it was towards Pocahontas specifically. It's always been considered a lesser example of the 90s features by the majority of the critical and average movie going public, even at the time of its release. To me it doesn't seem strange that someone who loved watching it as a child would be more forgiving of its flaws than a new movie they see as an adult.

[Disney Duster]

...and "mature", darker movies that handle themes of prejudice and finding a useful place in society (THoND vs. Zootopia).

No one needs to find a "useful place" in society. People only need to do what is useful to themselves.

[Tangled]

Yeah, looking back at it, "useful" alone was a really poor choice of words there. I meant "useful" in the sense that the main characters gradually find positions where they actually feel needed and loved despite bigoted barriers stopping them from getting there.

Also, Pocahontas was the only Disney Renaissance film I did not enjoy watching back when I was a kid. I found it boring, and the only thing that I liked about it was "Colors of the Wind". I do believe that my lack of nostalgia for the film has made its flaws stand out to me. The writing and characterization feel too hollow and devoid of emotion for a premise that could create meaningful drama. It's one thing to make a "mature" Disney film (they've done it really well multiple times, after all), but it's another to be so caught up in appearing "mature" that the final product feels spiritless and cold. Meanwhile, on the other hand, I really liked how Big Hero 6 handled its mature themes of grief and healing.

In short: Big Hero 6 moved me and made me care, Pocahontas did not. I don't know if I would feel the same way if I loved Pocahontas when I was little. Similarly, I don't know if Aladdin, my favorite Disney film when I was little, is actually better written than Wreck-it Ralph or if I'm just biased. Nostalgia is powerful, so I can't judge.

[ce1ticmoon]

I find the direct film-by-film comparisons unncessary, though I admit they do show some interesting parallels.

Anyway, I'd say that for me personally, the highs of the Renaissance exceed the Lasseter era, but the lows are lower. The Lasseter era is more consistent, and no matter what you think of the way he runs things, I think most can agree that he brought a level of quality control that was pretty non-existent in the years before he took over.

[estefan]

I can see how early on in Lasseter's reign, one can make direct parallels to the 80s-90s Renaissance (I know I did the same thing), but the movies of this era have now gone their own path and so the comparisons no longer fit.

[tweeb²]

I find the direct film-by-film comparisons unncessary, though I admit they do show some interesting parallels.

Anyway, I'd say that for me personally, the highs of the Renaissance exceed the Lasseter era, but the lows are lower. The Lasseter era is more consistent, and no matter what you think of the way he runs things, I think most can agree that he brought a level of quality control that was pretty non-existent in the years before he took over.

I agree.

With the Renaissance there was the risk of Disney dissapearing as a company, and the art of animation ending almost dead or as a very expensive art style for trendy shorts or commercials. out of that came that passion and that extra something you can see in WHo framed Roger Rabbit, Basil or TLM.

But Eisner and Katzemberg weren't artist and that showed in the whole "cheapquels" stuff and them trying to get Pixar to follow that route.

You may not like Lasseter, but he is an artist and it shows that he cares for the art. Of course that passion and spark of creativity can die down (George Lucas, ahem) but, I think he's still got it.

[Disney Duster]

Yeah, looking back at it, "useful" alone was a really poor choice of words there. I meant "useful" in the sense that the main characters gradually find positions where they actually feel needed and loved despite bigoted barriers stopping them from getting there.

Oh. Ok.

[Mooky]

While I do think nostalgia can play a significant part in shaping people's preferences, there's no doubt in my mind that the string of films released between 1989 and 1999 are, as a whole, much more tonally consistent, visually and aurally impressive, culturally significant and sincere in their overall approach to audiences, with stronger characters, stories and plotting compared to what we have now. And yes, that includes the much-maligned Pocahontas, for no matter how problematic the end product is, it's miles above the blandness and staleness of Big Hero 6.

The parallels between each of the eras, while probably not intentional, are astounding. However, I feel the only (pre-)'revival era' movies that are comparable -- quality-wise -- to their (pre-)Renaissance counterparts are Bolt (to Oliver & Company) and Zootopia (to The Hunchback of Notre Dame).

As for the nostalgia factor: a good movie is a good movie, regardless of the period of life you experienced it in. The first time I saw Back to the Future and Indiana Jones movies I was well into my twenties, so any emotional investment I might have had in these movies was just not there, but that didn't stop me from liking them and appreciating them in their own right. Likewise, nostalgia didn't stop me from finding He-Man and the Masters of the Universe cartoon cringe-worthy when viewed decades later.

[Disney's Divinity]

I’ll throw in that the Renaissance was more daring than the new films. At least we had variations in animation style to distract from formulaic narrative beats (and formulaic narrative beats are also something the new films suffer from, without as many difference to distract from them, imo). I don't see any difference in consistency between this era and that of the '90s, tbh; Lasseter looks at films in just as much of a calculated way as any other studio head.

Btw...

I find the direct film-by-film comparisons unncessary, though I admit they do show some interesting parallels.

I can see how early on in Lasseter's reign, one can make direct parallels to the 80s-90s Renaissance (I know I did the same thing), but the movies of this era have now gone their own path and so the comparisons no longer fit.

I only put them that way by order of release, but having them sit side by side is a little eerie.

[Sotiris]

Here's a posting template:

Meet the Robinsons v. The Great Mouse Detective
Bolt v. Oliver & Company
The Princess and the Frog v. The Little Mermaid
Winnie the Pooh v. The Rescuers Down Under
Tangled v. Beauty and the Beast
Wreck-It Ralph v. Aladdin
Frozen v. The Lion King
Big Hero 6 v. Pocahontas
Zootopia v. The Hunchback of Notre Dame

This is pretty easy for me.

The Great Mouse Detective
Oliver & Company
The Little Mermaid
The Rescuers Down Under
Beauty and the Beast
Aladdin
The Lion King
Pocahontas
The Hunchback of Notre Dame

[TheSequelOfDisney]

Meet the Robinsons v. The Great Mouse Detective
Bolt v. Oliver & Company
The Princess and the Frog v. The Little Mermaid
Winnie the Pooh v. The Rescuers Down Under
Tangled v. Beauty and the Beast
Wreck-It Ralph v. Aladdin
Frozen v. The Lion King
Big Hero 6 v. Pocahontas
Zootopia v. The Hunchback of Notre Dame

[Disney's Divinity]

^ Frozen is the only one I voted for, too, not to put down TLK at all. I love TP&TF, but TLM blows it clean out of the water. I didn’t vote on the last option yet. I’ll be seeing Zootopia in a couple weeks.

[TheSequelOfDisney]

^ Frozen is the only one I voted for, too, not to put down TLK at all. I love TP&TF, but TLM blows it clean out of the water. I didn’t vote on the last option yet. I’ll be seeing Zootopia in a couple weeks.

I've always felt lukewarm toward The Lion King. It's a fine film, sure, but I just don't connect to it as much as the rest of my generation. Frozen was a breath of fresh air for me, and while I generally enjoy most of the newer films (The Princess and the Frog, Wreck-It Ralph, Big Hero 6, and Zootopia), they don't hold a candle to those in the Renaissance. And that's for a number of factors, chief of them being nostalgia.

[Disney's Divinity]

Zootopia and Hunchback are a pretty even draw for me. I'm not enamored with either. I think Hunchback's good points are much greater than anything in Zootopia, although it has several cringeworthy moments where I'm more ambivalent to Zootopia and find it a little less preachy. I guess I'll say Hunchback. Usually I like it more than I expect whenever I watch it, but I have a generally negative impression and have to force myself to turn it on. The soundtrack and Tony Jay/Frollo > anything in Zootopia though.

[lord-of-sith]

I came here to comment more on the eras in general than film vs. film. I mean, how can you even compare Hunchback and Zootopia? Apples and oranges.

I found it surprising that a prior commenter said they found more variation in the "Renaissance" than in modern-era Disney. While I love the Disney Renaissance films, they did tend to be quite homogenous. Broadway-style musicals with characters that usually fit a typical Disney archetype (Heroe, heroine, villain, comedy relief sidekick, parental figure), and tended to follow similar plot structures. They also were a lot alike in tone and overall feel of the movies.

Modern-era Disney Animation has a LOT of variation. You have classic style fairytales (Frozen, Tangled, I'm guessing Moana), action-fantasies set in the modern world (Wreck-it-Ralph), Comic Book Superheroes (Big Hero 6), and Zootopia doing something different than all of those! Sure the 90s films had some stylistic departures, but that was about it.

Nostalgia is definitely playing a role here. People's love and affection for the 90s and hand-drawn animation has jaded them from accepting how good some of Disney's newer animated projects are. I clearly recall a member here saying they would never consider Big Hero 6 as part of the Disney cannon because it was a comic-book adaptation. Because Disney animated movies are never adapted from anything... I'm sure the same thing will happen 20 years from now, with people preferring our current films to quality projects the studio is putting out.