Frozen: Part V

[Disney's Divinity]

It seems that the princesses of the latest three eras have distinct personalities: the Walt-era princesses are graceful and kind, the Renaissance-era princesses are spunky and adventurous, and the modern era princesses are cutesy and klutzy. That's my take on it.

I don't think Tiana is cutesy or klutzy, but that may be why she's my favorite of the new princesses.

[disneyprincess11]

no youre right, its not the 2nd coming of the Disney renaissance as they are hyping it up to be. Those days are long gone.

Yes, that's exactly how I feel. These latest Disney movies just try too hard to be hip and cutesy.

I disagree with unprincess, but agree with Chesire. I think they can make great things as great as the early 90s movie. But, like what Chesire said, the writing can be way too hip and it keeps Tangled & Frozen from being the best it can. Take away the hip writing and they deserve their 90s place. Frozen was almost there in being one of the greatest films (Ok, maybe it was to me), but the writing was too hip at places. If Disney wants to make Giants and Moana as good as the 90s, they feed off from Frozen with the drama and have little to none modern talk. Because Frozen was not a bad start at all to completely return to the 90s. It was almost there, in general. (To me, it was as good as the 90s)

[taei]

As long as animated movies like free birds, nut job, and Despicable Me 2 succeed at the box office, Disney will get the message that kids want hip movies.

In the past, everyone would go see animated movies, they were a novelty, so Disney had to turn out serious movies.
Which is one of the reasons why BRAVE is my favorite movie.
Maybe one day. People will realize how different things are.

Compare the comedy from the 90's Disney and Brave to comedy in DM2.

I'm not saying that DM2 is a bad movie, but when the highest box office numbers for animated movies this year goes to DM2, it says a lot.

It's just a business model. Studious used to take risks when making movies because not everyone could make them. I'm surprised at half of the movies that came out this year. I couldn't believe that people were green lighting these expensive movies and what shocked me the most is that they did good at the box office. So naturally, a company would want to duplicate the movie to duplicate the profit.

Honestly.. There are two ways for me to see this movie:

1) Compare it to the 90's, where it isn't good enough, but it is far from a bad movie.

2) Compare it to the modern day movies, it is a masterpiece.

I'm just interested in seeing how Moana and Giants will be. We know that Big Hero 6 will be modern.

[frankf3]

Which is one of the reasons why BRAVE is my favorite movie.
Compare the comedy from the 90's Disney and Brave to comedy in DM2.

Personally, I felt the comedy in Brave was way too obnoxious at times. There was quite a few butt jokes and overdone slapstick. Also, Brave had their own version of the "Minions" with the triplets. Just like the minions, they don't talk and only make gibberish noises. It seemed like they were there for jokes and the marketing, I didn't feel they truly serve a purpose for the story.

One of the reasons I liked Frozen so much is the comedy was dialed now for the most part (exception of the trolls, little much there). The movie knew when to be funny and when to take itself seriously. For example, when Anna and Elsa are talking in the castle, it's very serious and dramatic (especially the reprise). In fact, anything with Anna and Elsa in a scene together is taken very seriously. Meanwhile in Brave, when the Mom gets turn into a bear, there was so much slapstick. Even when the Mom and Merida are bonding, there is still slapstick going on.

For me, the humor in Frozen was much more dialed down the humor in Brave.

[nomad2010]

I think the biggest issue with these modern day fairy tales is that they are too afraid to be serious. Frozen proved the audiences would rather have something closer to Beauty and the Beast tone-wise than Hercules or Mulan. What we will see in the future are fairy tales that are taken more seriously with darker topics and serious music. If Disney would stop trying to be hip, and instead try to make something that isn't going to be outdated ten years from now, I think they'd really find their stride.

Frozen was great, but there are still big issues with it. The tone shifts too drastically, the pacing is way too fast, and the story has no real weight. I think it's really held back by the lack of final musical number and the brisk pacing.

What I've noticed in these modern day Disney movies is that they are afraid to show shots that do not feature characters. We don't get any more sweeping shots, or shots of the scary woods to add to the mood. We simply get the characters in the woods riding and we see the woods behind them. There's nothing to give the story breathing room, nothing to give a real feel for the locations. I think specifically to the first ride with Kristoff and Anna. There's nothing that does not feature one of the characters. It almost makes me feel claustrophobic in a sense. Being bombarded with all these characters constantly in your face.

I'm also getting really tired of this whole "romance is bad" idea. A girl can be independent and still want to fall in love. A guy can too. Why can't we strike a balance? Because I really miss those big epic romances.

Either way, in the future, I think Disney will become a little darker and a little more serious. I think what Frozen proved is that the story is key, and the hipness is not.

[dollover]

Compare the comedy from the 90's Disney and Brave to comedy in DM2.

I'm not saying that DM2 is a bad movie, but when the highest box office numbers for animated movies this year goes to DM2, it says a lot.

1) Compare it to the 90's, where it isn't good enough, but it is far from a bad movie.

2) Compare it to the modern day movies, it is a masterpiece.

I'm just interested in seeing how Moana and Giants will be. We know that Big Hero 6 will be modern.

Aladdin, Lion King, Hercules, and Mulan, and Tarzan were all from the 90's. All had 'hip' and 'zany' and modern components, whether it came from the sidekicks or the main characters. The only one that didn't have much of that was BatB. Even Ariel sounded like a typical teenager from modern times. So I wouldn't say the comedy from the 90's is really that different from the comedy from today. I feel like Disney took their cue from Aladdin in how to make future movies, since it was such a massive success (or maybe they took their cue from Pocahontas's lesser success), but I wish they had taken their cue from BatB, the Oscar nominated, timeless classic. Was it really necessary to have phrases like 'freak out' and 'cuz like' in Tangled and Frozen? Language like that make the movies seem more lightweight and 'fluffy', and trendy rather than timeless classics to me.

I thought DM2 was absolutely horrible and unfunny and extremely hard to sit through. God I hated that movie. It was the worst movie I've seen in years. It had nothing to do with the it being hip and zany either, since it was a modern movie set in modern times and that was expected. It just felt obnoxious, soulless and obvious to me.

I'm looking forward to Moana and Giants too. I love animated fairytales, though ironically I liked WIR more than Tangled and Frozen. I just hope they can get that timeless feeling back. Since Moana is set 2000 yrs in the past, I really don't want to see her 'like, freak out over that amazeballs wave or whatever'. There are other ways to get the point across just as effectively.

[Alphapanchito]

I'm also getting really tired of this whole "romance is bad" idea. A girl can be independent and still want to fall in love. A guy can too. Why can't we strike a balance? Because I really miss those big epic romances.

What disney fairy tales have a "romance is bad" idea? I think tangled can be considered one of those epic romances. Yeah, she was afraid of men at the very beginning, but once she found out Flynn didn't have pointy teeth she was basically flirting with him during the road trip. If anything, there was a side message that was you shouldn't be afraid of romance/people. I guess i might see what you mean with PATF, but i dont think its a bad thing? And Frozen does not give across the message that romance is bad, it just makes fun of that "We'll be married in the morning!" thing that Enchanted did. Anna has always dreamed of romance, and she kinda gets it in the end. I don't think that is saying girls shouldn't want to fall in love. But again, this movie was not about romance, it was about sisters, so I think its a good thing that it wasn't an epic love story. If anything, its an epic sisterly love story, which i found very fresh and enjoyable.

Maybe I interpreted your post wrong, but I don't really get where you are coming from, especially considering the large majority of disney fairytales include epic romances. I really don't think having a few movies that don't focus specifically on romance give a message that girls shouldn't want to fall in love. I also think its just a reflection of the times, just like disney movies always are. I feel like a lot of people are bored with those epic romances, and I do personally think that is kinda justified. I think the general public wants something they can relate to, rather than something they can dream about. Frozen covered a lot of important things to a lot of people, and I personally think that is something much more special than those epic romances were.

[Kyle]

The only one that comes to mind for me is Brave, but thats obviously not Disney. You could say The Princess and the Frog had that message, but it was less about relationship romance and more about not romanticizing life, by not just wishing but working to reach your goals.

[nomad2010]

I'm also getting really tired of this whole "romance is bad" idea. A girl can be independent and still want to fall in love. A guy can too. Why can't we strike a balance? Because I really miss those big epic romances.

What disney fairy tales have a "romance is bad" idea? I think tangled can be considered one of those epic romances. Yeah, she was afraid of men at the very beginning, but once she found out Flynn didn't have pointy teeth she was basically flirting with him during the road trip. If anything, there was a side message that was you shouldn't be afraid of romance/people. I guess i might see what you mean with PATF, but i dont think its a bad thing? And Frozen does not give across the message that romance is bad, it just makes fun of that "We'll be married in the morning!" thing that Enchanted did. Anna has always dreamed of romance, and she kinda gets it in the end. I don't think that is saying girls shouldn't want to fall in love. But again, this movie was not about romance, it was about sisters, so I think its a good thing that it wasn't an epic love story. If anything, its an epic sisterly love story, which i found very fresh and enjoyable.

Maybe I interpreted your post wrong, but I don't really get where you are coming from, especially considering the large majority of disney fairytales include epic romances. I really don't think having a few movies that don't focus specifically on romance give a message that girls shouldn't want to fall in love. I also think its just a reflection of the times, just like disney movies always are. I feel like a lot of people are bored with those epic romances, and I do personally think that is kinda justified. I think the general public wants something they can relate to, rather than something they can dream about. Frozen covered a lot of important things to a lot of people, and I personally think that is something much more special than those epic romances were.

I was mainly referring to Brave and PatF. I don't mind either of them, but my main concern is that it's going to become the norm and be pushed the extreme. The public seems so dead set on pushing the whole "I dont need love at all" agenda that it's almost ridiculous. I almost feel that if it continues like it has, the studio will quit the romance altogether. Frozen's relationships are fresh, and I enjoy that very much. In fact, I think the sisterly love story was one of the most refreshing onscreen relationships I've seen in quite a while (though not developed enough in my opinion)

I guess what I'm getting at is that I would love to have seen the Snow Queen adapted in a sense that it's the girl saving the guy she loves. We live in a world where you don't need love, but when you do love someone they are worth risking everything for. Instead of finding love, maybe it needs to be about existing love. Or even friendly love.

I'm just tired of underdeveloped relationships. Anna and Elsa. Anna and her eventual love interest. Tiana and Naveen. Flynn and Rapunzel were at least better but that doesn't save the movie in my opinion (a different matter entirely).

I hope that clarifies a bit

[Cheshire_Cat]

It seems that the princesses of the latest three eras have distinct personalities: the Walt-era princesses are graceful and kind, the Renaissance-era princesses are spunky and adventurous, and the modern era princesses are cutesy and klutzy. That's my take on it.

I don't think Tiana is cutesy or klutzy, but that may be why she's my favorite of the new princesses.

I'd consider Tiana to be one exception. "Cutesy and klutzy" seems to be the direction they're going, if Disney decides to follow the lead of Rapunzel and Anna. I half expect there to be a princess song in a few years from now called Oops! Lol, I'm Such a Klutz!

[SWillie!]

That's an interesting point about the different eras. It certainly makes sense, and I think it echoes what was/is considered most attractive or desirable in a person at the times the films were made. During Walt's day, the graceful housewife was held in high esteem. By the 90s it was all about the intelligent, independent types. And these days it certainly seems that honesty - being yourself even if that means you're goofy/nerdy/clumsy/different etc, is seen as very positive.

I think even though it may seem like "all the new princesses are too hip and modern", I really think all of these characters are simply a sign of the times. While at first I'm thrown off a little by the modern quips of characters like Anna, I think I'd rather Disney stay modern and continue evolving, rather than keep creating characters that act just like Cinderella and Aurora.

[Alphapanchito]

I was mainly referring to Brave and PatF. I don't mind either of them, but my main concern is that it's going to become the norm and be pushed the extreme. The public seems so dead set on pushing the whole "I dont need love at all" agenda that it's almost ridiculous. I almost feel that if it continues like it has, the studio will quit the romance altogether. Frozen's relationships are fresh, and I enjoy that very much. In fact, I think the sisterly love story was one of the most refreshing onscreen relationships I've seen in quite a while (though not developed enough in my opinion)

I guess what I'm getting at is that I would love to have seen the Snow Queen adapted in a sense that it's the girl saving the guy she loves. We live in a world where you don't need love, but when you do love someone they are worth risking everything for. Instead of finding love, maybe it needs to be about existing love. Or even friendly love.

I'm just tired of underdeveloped relationships. Anna and Elsa. Anna and her eventual love interest. Tiana and Naveen. Flynn and Rapunzel were at least better but that doesn't save the movie in my opinion (a different matter entirely).

I hope that clarifies a bit

Ah okay, I see where you are getting with that. Thank you for clarifying that for me. I don't personally enjoy the epic romances as much as you seem to. I do agree that character relationships are important and I do think that was missing from PATF, and to a much lesser extent, Brave (the mother/daughter relationship was pretty great imo, that scene where they go fishing is beautiful). For me, I am very glad we got the snow queen adaptation we got. I don't think there are many chances to make a character like elsa, and I am just so thankful that she exists because I (and so many people) relate to her so much. The sister's relationship was developed enough for me, especiallly considering the fact that an important facet of their relationship is isolation from each other. There are a ton of hints in the movie and that show just how strong their relationship is (first thing elsa builds is Olaf, a memory of their relationship) and mostly just the way they talk to each other and look at each other. The emotion portrayed between the two of them shows a well developed sisterly relationship to me at least. Just coming from somebody who has a really close sister, I see a lot of us in Anna and Elsa which is what makes the onscreen relationship strong for me. When coupled with the tragic side of Elsa tearing them apart, I think they have a very beautiful, tragic relationship. I only wish they had a reprise of DYTBAS as anna was freezing and Elsa was imprisoned/seeing how much of a mess she made. That would've closed their relationship a little tighter. I also didn't like Idina's voicing when mourning her frozen sister. The animation makes it seem like she's desperately sad ,but the voice makes it seem like she's either uncaring or in shock (the latter would make sense, if the animation fit, but it just seems off for me). But the ending scene with the ice skating paralleling the Olaf scene when they were little is just beautiful. I think their relationship works really well for the most part.

I see your concern. I'm not personally worried about it yet because the only instance where a lack of relationship between characters bothered me was in PATF, which didn't even do as well as Disney wanted it too. But if what you fear does happen years down the road because society is leaning away from the tired guy/girl romances I think there is a possible fix: introducing gay/lesbian relationships. Hhaha I know what a can of worms this can be and i'm not meaning to discuss it here, but that was the first thing that came to my mind when you coming up with new ways to show love that would be fresh and exciting in animation. I think it could possibly be a way to "refresh" Disney's love epics, if it ever came to that in the future. But, as I said, I also think Disney found a different way to do this in Frozen, with sisters.

[dollover]

That's an interesting point about the different eras. It certainly makes sense, and I think it echoes what was/is considered most attractive or desirable in a person at the times the films were made. During Walt's day, the graceful housewife was held in high esteem. By the 90s it was all about the intelligent, independent types. And these days it certainly seems that honesty - being yourself even if that mmoderneans you're goofy/nerdy/clumsy/different etc, is seen as very positive.

I think even though it may seem like "all the new princesses are too hip and modern", I really think all of these characters are simply a sign of the times. While at first I'm thrown off a little by the modern quips of characters like Anna, I think I'd rather Disney stay modern and continue evolving, rather than keep creating characters that act just like Cinderella and Aurora.

I think it's possible to not make modern quips and still be modern. Just because a character uses more time neutral language doesn't mean they act just like Cinderella and Aurora. Elsa does not act like Cinderella or Aurora and she doesn't use modern language yet is complex and relatable and modern. Same with Tiana. I know they're trying to convey some kind of bubbly teenager thing with Rapunzel and Anna but I still think their personality can be portrayed without the anachronistic language.

[Elladorine]

I'm not sure how objective I can be, but I definitely enjoyed Frozen and think I can understand all the sweeping comparisons to the renaissance films and even the "Disney's best since The Lion King" spiel that has apparently ticked off so many. I'd already listened to the soundtrack pretty extensively, and thankfully I liked "For the First Time in Forever" much better within the context of the film, but I've always been like that when it comes to Disney songs. "Fixer Upper" sounded like it stepped right out of Avenue Q, which was a little jarring but not necessarily a bad thing. I really liked "Let it Go" of course, and knew I'd get emotional for "Do You Want to Build a Snowman."

Hopefully I can be more relaxed to enjoy the film by the time the Blu-ray comes out. As expected, I loved the animation and really enjoyed the characters. Olaf was all kinds of awesome. Looking forward to owning the film in a few months and being able to give it a better look at my leisure!

I'll try not to hijack this thread too much, but thanks for all the congratulations. Maybe we'd have been offered free movie tickets for life had the baby actually been born in the theater, but they had no clue what was going on! As it was, I actually managed to see the film up through the beginning of the end credits, but given the contractions I think I was kind of out of it during the last part. I literally didn't realize how severe they'd become until I got up out of my seat and found I could barely walk; I'd been having Braxton-Hicks most of the week and assumed it was just more of the same. Um, oops?

On a side note, the nurses kept telling me things like, "get it together" and "control it" throughout the first (and most painful part) of the labor, which sort of made me laugh (cry?) given the scenes I'd just watched of Elsa.

[skippy]

I just wanted to add that "Do you want to build a snowman?" is the best song from Disney in a long, long while.

Beautiful and haunting.

I couldn't get over how beautiful and visually pleasing the film was for the first 20 minutes.

Loved it.

As Ralphie's teacher said in his essay dream, "A++++++++++++++++"

[thelittleursula]

I'm also getting really tired of this whole "romance is bad" idea. A girl can be independent and still want to fall in love. A guy can too. Why can't we strike a balance? Because I really miss those big epic romances.

^ This so much


There is nothing wrong with falling in love


Otherwise we wouldn't be here, plus it's normal human emotions.

I'm not sure how objective I can be, but I definitely enjoyed Frozen and think I can understand all the sweeping comparisons to the renaissance films and even the "Disney's best since The Lion King" spiel that has apparently ticked off so many.

* Light bulb switching on *

Do you think that this the reason why Tumblr is picking on this movie so much ? Because of this ?

I think that it is.

If they REALLY cared about Poc and sexism etc, they would of started complaining waaay before Frozen.

[thedisneyspirit]

I'm personally not fond of the cute and bubbly princesses tbh, but I think they're a reflection of the teenage girls of nowadays obsessed with facebook/instagram/the like, so I can't complain "they're too modern" since Disney has always their main leads as to resonate with the audiences of the moment. Like how Cinderella and Aurora are icons of women in the 50s ala Audrey Hepburn, or how Ariel and Jasmine were icons to women in the 90s in american media.

I do say that I like Elsa and Tiana more though. If only because I prefer characters who aren't the "cute innocent and naive" princesses. I like them more serious and mature.

[RyGuy]

That's an interesting point about the different eras. It certainly makes sense, and I think it echoes what was/is considered most attractive or desirable in a person at the times the films were made. During Walt's day, the graceful housewife was held in high esteem. By the 90s it was all about the intelligent, independent types. And these days it certainly seems that honesty - being yourself even if that mmoderneans you're goofy/nerdy/clumsy/different etc, is seen as very positive.

I think even though it may seem like "all the new princesses are too hip and modern", I really think all of these characters are simply a sign of the times. While at first I'm thrown off a little by the modern quips of characters like Anna, I think I'd rather Disney stay modern and continue evolving, rather than keep creating characters that act just like Cinderella and Aurora.

I think it's possible to not make modern quips and still be modern. Just because a character uses more time neutral language doesn't mean they act just like Cinderella and Aurora. Elsa does not act like Cinderella or Aurora and she doesn't use modern language yet is complex and relatable and modern. Same with Tiana. I know they're trying to convey some kind of bubbly teenager thing with Rapunzel and Anna but I still think their personality can be portrayed without the anachronistic language.

I think what were modern quips back in the Snow White/Cinderella/Aurora eras are probably lost on modern audiences. "I'm so ashamed of the fuss I've made . . ." comes to mind. No one uses the word "fuss" these days but my grandmother and my wife's grandmother (who probably are the same age as Snow White would be) use it all the time (e.g., "Don't make a fuss over me".)

It's kind of like Ariel saying, "Oh my gosh! Have you ever seen anything so wonderful in your entirely life?" I was almost 16 when TLM came out so I'm about the same age as Ariel would be and when I was in high school, we said, "Oh my gosh!" all the time. But previously no princess had said anything like it. And now a days, it doesn't seem so hip/edgy because it's been part of the vernacular in American English for so long, it seems, well, normal.

I think what is "timeless" evolves over time. Rapunzel's excessive use of "like" may seem completely timeless by the time the film is 50 years old (imho, anyway)

[Tristy]

I think it's possible to not make modern quips and still be modern. Just because a character uses more time neutral language doesn't mean they act just like Cinderella and Aurora. Elsa does not act like Cinderella or Aurora and she doesn't use modern language yet is complex and relatable and modern. Same with Tiana. I know they're trying to convey some kind of bubbly teenager thing with Rapunzel and Anna but I still think their personality can be portrayed without the anachronistic language.

I think what were modern quips back in the Snow White/Cinderella/Aurora eras are probably lost on modern audiences. "I'm so ashamed of the fuss I've made . . ." comes to mind. No one uses the word "fuss" these days but my grandmother and my wife's grandmother (who probably are the same age as Snow White would be) use it all the time (e.g., "Don't make a fuss over me".)

It's kind of like Ariel saying, "Oh my gosh! Have you ever seen anything so wonderful in your entirely life?" I was almost 16 when TLM came out so I'm about the same age as Ariel would be and when I was in high school, we said, "Oh my gosh!" all the time. But previously no princess had said anything like it. And now a days, it doesn't seem so hip/edgy because it's been part of the vernacular in American English for so long, it seems, well, normal.

I think what is "timeless" evolves over time. Rapunzel's excessive use of "like" may seem completely timeless by the time the film is 50 years old (imho, anyway)

This!

[SWillie!]

Definitely, well said RyGuy. Good examples too! "Oh my gosh" is perfect, that really was hip and modern at the time.