Do you read the Bible?

[AwallaceUNC]

I roll my eyes because your argument is circular.
It is god's word because the bible says it is god's word, and the bible must be right about that because the bible is the word of god.

It is circular to a non-believer, but to a believer, that's the way it is. Of course, faith can't be explained in terms of logic, so what's the point?

It is like me saying my argument is correct because I'm always right, and that must be true because I said it.

Yes, except I would never say that about myself or my own arguments, only about God.

And I don't capitalize god any more than I would capitalize cheese, tree or book. If you are all for freedom of belief, to me god is nothing more than an abstract entity that I have no inclination to give any more authority to than I would a piece of wood. If however, I were a believer such as yourself I would capitalize the word. Until then, I exercise my own interpretation.

To me, it's still disrespect. If nothing else, God is a name, or even a character in literature, if you want to view it as that. If Tree is a name, you capitalize it.

Islam and orthodox Judaism (in its unconverted stage) won't earn you salvation.

But then, I'm probably just a heathen like the rest of these groups you have just insulted.

If you want to it reduce to an insult, then fine. It is the belief of Christianity, though, and comes from the same conviction that is exercised by Islamics and Jews.

I'm not calling you a heathen. It's not my place to remark on anyone's salvation. I can say that anyone who does not accept Jesus as their savior doesn't enter Heaven, and that's all I say. Anything personal is a matter between the individual and God, not me.

-Aaron

Edited for spelling.

[karlsen]

The fist thing I thought when I saw this subject was that there was bound to be "arguments" for and against and I was surtenly right.

First to answere the question: I don't read as much as I should have, because I do belive in it and God and I know I should be reading more.

But when it comes to faith I do not belive that the UD forum would be the correct or apropriate place at all to write anything more then just what I wrote. I don't think it would serve anybody any good to try and explain anything in here.

If a person is determend that he or she does not belive in it then our posts here can not change anything. Neither can I, or anybody else, explain it so anybody that has not seen it for himself can understand it. The only thing that could be sead is that you don't know what you are saying no to. It is the most important choice in your life, and you certainly should look into it before making up your mind.

[Luke]

Please be careful about stepping on toes. This hasn't turned too personal yet, but it very easily could. As always, be mindful that you're not attacking each other but instead disputing arguments. Religion is a touchy issue, so let's keep that in mind and try to keep this civil.

Thank you.

[AwallaceUNC]

Luke, this is a very good/important point. Nothing's gotten personal yet, as you say, but it is difficult for people not to take these things personally. And, in all such discussions, written words (when there's no voice or sight to accompany them) can come across as much more harsh than they were intended to sound.

Karlsen also makes a good point, but then that can be said about most issues. I think substantive conversations are good, even healthy, so long as they don't get increasingly volatile.

-Aaron

[MickeyMousePal]

Everyone with me now we all believe in Jesus Christ.
Not Jebus like Homer Simpson says!!!
That reminds me who's getting The Passion of the Christ this August 31?
I will get it on the first day!!!

[pinkrenata]

Everyone with me now we all believe in Jesus Christ.
Not Jebus like Homer Simpson says!!!
That reminds me who's getting The Passion of the Christ this August 31?
I will get it on the first day!!!

What does that have to do with anything, man?

[STASHONE]

x.

[PrinceAli]

I'd like to add a few things...

It is circular to a non-believer, but to a believer, that's the way it is. Of course, faith can't be explained in terms of logic, so what's the point?

If that is the way is for you, that is called blind faith. Believing in something just because the Bible says so without even thinking about it (thinking would require interpretation) is bad in my opinion.

However, the choice of whether to accept His offer lies with us. Jews are not following a false text, they are simply ignoring its second half. And yes, there is only one path to God. Only Jesus. Islam and orthodox Judaism (in its unconverted stage) won't earn you salvation.

That's one reason why I am not a Christian. I think it is absolutely rediculous to think that someone who is a good person, and lives their life full of happiness and respect for others won't be "accepted" into heaven just because they don't believe in the Bible or Jesus. The god I believe in wouldn't do that. To respect one's religion and then say they are going to hell for not following the right path is hypocritical.

I have to know though, do you believe every line in the Bible?

[AwallaceUNC]

If that is the way is for you, that is called blind faith. Believing in something just because the Bible says so without even thinking about it (thinking would require interpretation) is bad in my opinion.

It's unquestioning faith, yes. I don't consider it to be blinding, but I do follow it without question. If you think it's bad, I'll respect your right to that opinion.

That's one reason why I am not a Christian. I think it is absolutely rediculous to think that someone who is a good person, and lives their life full of happiness and respect for others won't be "accepted" into heaven just because they don't believe in the Bible or Jesus. The god I believe in wouldn't do that. To respect one's religion and then say they are going to hell for not following the right path is hypocritical.

First, I don't respect their religion. I do, however, respect their right to make a choice and practice it. I don't think it's ridiculous at all to believe that Jesus is the only path to salvation. On what do you base that God accepts all religions? None of the 3 major religions endorse that. With all due respect to you, I must say that if you believe in an all-accepting god, you believe in a false god. On what do you base your belief that God accepts people based on their good deeds and conduct? The Bible (granted, you don't believe in it, at least not entirely) says that it is by our faith alone, not our righteousness, that we enter Heaven, and that Jesus Christ is the one and only path to God.

I have to know though, do you believe every line in the Bible?

Yes, I do, every last line. However, let me go ahead and offer a preemptive explanation for the argument that typically follows this question. Just as with anything you read, the Bible is one document divided into many books and chapters. It must be taken within its full context, otherwise it is distorted. Therefore, pulling out individual verses, or "lines" as you put it, almost always distorts it.

-Aaron

[Loomis]

It's not my place to remark on anyone's salvation. I can say that anyone who does not accept Jesus as their savior doesn't enter Heaven, and that's all I say.

Hang on, it isn't your place to judge, but anyone who doesn't follow the same beliefs as you and follow Jesus won't enter heaven?

Gee, that sounds fair. I can imagine a conversation between your god and a human...

Human: So we are free people?
God: Yes
Human: To do as we please?
God: Yes...well...
Human: Well, what?
God: Well, there is a bunch of stuff I don't want you to do.
Human: Like what?
God: Well, you can't follow any other religion except Christianity, for starters.
Human: But if we are all worshipping you in our own way, aren't you content with that?
God: Oh Me no! You must follow the one and only path to Me, and that is through This Handy Book.
Human: So we are free to do as YOU tell us then?
God: Pretty much.
Human: That doesn't sound very free.
God: Well, join another religion then. See what I care!
Human: Is their religion the right one?
God: Nah, their gods are made up.
Human: So there is only one true path to heaven, and we are free to do as you tell us?
God: Now you are getting it!
Human: Speaking of "getting it", Lord - are we allowed to..err...you know....
God: My son, that's a whole other story...

FADE OUT

END CREDITS

First, I don't respect their religion. I do, however, respect their right to make a choice and practice it. I don't think it's ridiculous at all to believe that Jesus is the only path to salvation.

You don't respect other religions, but you respect their right to practice it. However, you don't believe that they could possibily be right. Then you wonder why people have a hard time accepting that YOUR chosen path is the one true path? So, you can easily reject the paths of their religions, but you can't see that other people can just as readily reject your path and call it ridiculous?

I think it IS ridiculous to accept any one teaching as the only way of doing something, be it entering heaven or making a movie.

And if choosing to live my life according to my own mish-mash of philosophy means I won't get into heaven, then break out the ice packs - I'm goin' to hell!

That's one reason why I am not a Christian. I think it is absolutely ridiculous to think that someone who is a good person, and lives their life full of happiness and respect for others won't be "accepted" into heaven just because they don't believe in the Bible or Jesus. The god I believe in wouldn't do that. To respect one's religion and then say they are going to hell for not following the right path is hypocritical.

All hail, Prince Ali.
Couldn't have said it better myself.

[pinkrenata]

God: Oh Me no!

Loomis, you teh funny!

[AwallaceUNC]

Hang on, it isn't your place to judge, but anyone who doesn't follow the same beliefs as you and follow Jesus won't enter heaven?

Right, God already made that judgment/decision, and included it in the Bible. But it has nothing to do with following my beliefs. Another Christian and I may differ on a good many things, even within the bounds of faith practices. A person has to accept Jesus to enter Heaven. Anything beyond that is between them and God.

You don't respect other religions, but you respect their right to practice it. However, you don't believe that they could possibily be right. Then you wonder why people have a hard time accepting that YOUR chosen path is the one true path? So, you can easily reject the paths of their religions, but you can't see that other people can just as readily reject your path and call it ridiculous?

I don't wonder why it's difficult for others at all. Sure, they can readily reject my faith as well, but that doesn't make them right. But then takes us right back to faith, which can't be debated with logic.

I think it IS ridiculous to accept any one teaching as the only way of doing something, be it entering heaven or making a movie.

Well, it's the only right way. But let's say, for the sake of argument, that there is an omnipotent creator of humanity. Would it be ridiculous for this creator to dictate the path to Him, should we wish to follow it?

And on the subject of free will- God gives us the freedom of choice and to live our lives the way we want to. But He then asks us to use that freedom to choose to follow His guidelines. The key is that the choice is your's, which you've obviously chosen to exercise:

And if choosing to live my life according to my own mish-mash of philosophy means I won't get into heaven, then break out the ice packs - I'm goin' to hell!

And now I'm wondering, do you believe in Hell?

-Aaron

[PrinceAli]

First, I don't respect their religion. I do, however, respect their right to make a choice and practice it. I don't think it's ridiculous at all to believe that Jesus is the only path to salvation. On what do you base that God accepts all religions? None of the 3 major religions endorse that. With all due respect to you, I must say that if you believe in an all-accepting god, you believe in a false god. On what do you base your belief that God accepts people based on their good deeds and conduct? The Bible (granted, you don't believe in it, at least not entirely) says that it is by our faith alone, not our righteousness, that we enter Heaven, and that Jesus Christ is the one and only path to God.

On what do I base that God accepts all religions? Just my heart and conscious tells me that. I don't need to read in any scripture, for I am spiritual and not a religious person, I don't have a "religion" if you will. Religions just cause wars and hatred, and that would destroy my faith. My god is not false, but you can believe that if you'd like. You act as if I must have a scripture that says so or else my beliefs are rubbish. I'd more question a god that accepts someone who sinned his whole life but then "became a Christian" in the last few years of it. Or a god who doesn't accept homosexual activity for that matter..(I'm not gay though)

But again, just be a good person.

Yes, I do, every last line. However, let me go ahead and offer a preemptive explanation for the argument that typically follows this question. Just as with anything you read, the Bible is one document divided into many books and chapters. It must be taken within its full context, otherwise it is distorted. Therefore, pulling out individual verses, or "lines" as you put it, almost always distorts it.

lol, I wasn't going to say a contradictory line. But I would wonder if you would still believe a story in the Bible even if science proved it impossible. I think I would know your response though, that "God made it happen" or something like that.

[Disneykid]

I know this has turned into mainly a Loomis vs. Aaron debate, but I'll just step in to voice my thoughts, though this could be considered redundant compared to all that's been said so far. I believe the Bible is the inspired word of God. The English translations we have today may not be 100% accurate to the Hebrew, but that's not the point. The word of God isn't simply a bunch of printed text on pages. It's the message you get from it. The message is the only thing that counts. If the exact text was as important as people make it out to be, then tossing your Bible to the floor would be a sin. It's just paper. Fussing over every single word in there doesn't do much when you could simply just read and get from it what God wants you to get. Next, I believe that there is only one way to Heaven despite the fact that one could be a good person and all of that. People say that isn't fair, but I look at it this way. Man has sin. Heaven has no sin and cannot allow it to enter, so man needs to get rid of his sin so he can join God in Heaven. If you don't get rid of the sin, how are you going to enter heaven? There's no pergatory for people who are good but have sin (no where in the Bible is this even hinted at). Contrary to popular belief, God does not want to send people to hell. Why do you think the Bible and missionaries even exist in the first place? And to those who say that every religion worships the same god but in a different way, I don't believe that. Before you stomp on me, let me say this. I *WANT* to believe it. It's such a nice thought to know that everyone's right in their beliefs but they just express it in different ways. But, sadly, that isn't the case. Why? Because every religion's god is vastly different from the other one's. They don't match up at all, meaning someone has to be right and someone has to be wrong. I know it sounds rather stuck up to think "Oh, my religion's right and yours is wrong" but you know what, isn't that what everyone feels about anything in their life? Those of you who are refuting the comments some have made about the Bible believe you're right. You can't just be neutral about all of this. You have to believe something and if you do, you believe that that is right. As for tolerating other religions, I'll say this. Although I don't believe other religions are correct, I respect them in the sense that I don't bash them when they express their view points nor do I judge them as people for it. Jesus hung out with sinners quite often. He knew the truth and what they believed (or didn't believe) in, but He never disowned them but rather treated them with decency. That's what it means to respect another person's religion, just like you would respect their democratic viewpoint or their taste in cinema despite what your beliefs/tastes are. In the end, it all boils down to faith. We can't prove to you why we believe the Bible is the absolute truth. That's what faith is. It's believing in something when you don't know everything about it or have any substantial evidence to prove something. You just believe.

[AwallaceUNC]

On what do I base that God accepts all religions? Just my heart and conscious tells me that. I don't need to read in any scripture, for I am spiritual and not a religious person, I don't have a "religion" if you will. Religions just cause wars and hatred, and that would destroy my faith. My god is not false, but you can believe that if you'd like. You act as if I must have a scripture that says so or else my beliefs are rubbish. I'd more question a god that accepts someone who sinned his whole life but then "became a Christian" in the last few years of it. Or a god who doesn't accept homosexual activity for that matter..(I'm not gay though)

I'm with you in that I don't suscribe to any organized religion- the entire idea is so flawed. I'm Christian by spirit and faith, not by religion, and I leave it at that. Whatever labels others choose don't concern me. But I have a hard time understanding the second part of what you say. Do you believe that God is omnipotent and the creator of humanity? If so, does it not stand to reason that we should aspire to His standards, not hold Him to our's?

(And as for last-minute conversions, that's something I've never known the concrete answer on, because I don't think there is one. God knows each person's heart and accepts them accordingly. I don't think you can just go through the motion of saying a prayer and be handed your FastPass to Heaven).

But again, just be a good person.

Yes, I agree, we should all be good people. I differ from you, though, in that being a good person is not my focus. Jesus is my focus, and being a good person is a side-effect, or result, of that.

lol, I wasn't going to say a contradictory line. But I would wonder if you would still believe a story in the Bible even if science proved it impossible. I think I would know your response though, that "God made it happen" or something like that.

I get asked this a lot, and have thought quite a bit about it. First, I must say that I honestly do not believe this will, or can, ever happen. But let's say, for the sake of argument, that a startling scientific discovery seemed to disprove a facet or teaching of Christianity. If that facet/teaching is founded in Scripture, then my reaction wouldn't be that "God made it happen," but rather that the science is wrong or misunderstood. For the scientific mind, I'm sure that's very difficult to conceive. I've never had a hard time suspending disbelief, and it's more than acceptable to me that there are things in this world that I do not and never will understand. It really is a matter of faith. My faith in God is stronger than my faith in mankind. Therefore, if ever the two conflict, my faith goes to God unfailingly, and I will never accept anything that seems to contradict or obstruct that faith. Hopefully that answered your question.

-Aaron

[Loomis]

Well, it's the only right way.

Wow, you already know which way god has chosen?

God knows which is correct, and the answer will be presented to each party at either the end of their life or the end of the age.

You've died and come back then, full of knowledge? Dude, that is cool!

Me? I've never been confident enough to speak for god. "See this in the bible? THIS is what god means..."

And on the subject of free will- God gives us the freedom of choice and to live our lives the way we want to. But He then asks us to use that freedom to choose to follow His guidelines. The key is that the choice is your's, which you've obviously chosen to exercise

So I argue again - is that really freedom at all? It is like saying "You have this WHOLE prison to yourself". Sure you can't go outside, but within the confines of that prison you can do what you want. I would hardly call that freedom.

And now I'm wondering, do you believe in Hell?

No, but I was playing "devil's advocate" (pun intended). If choosing to live my life in peace without harming others, but as a non-Christian, is wrong - then obviously THAT path leads to hell or purgatory as well.

And just to try and bring this back on topic:

I know this has turned into mainly a Loomis vs. Aaron debate, but I'll just step in to voice my thoughts, though this could be considered redundant compared to all that's been said so far. I believe the Bible is the inspired word of God. The English translations we have today may not be 100% accurate to the Hebrew, but that's not the point. The word of God isn't simply a bunch of printed text on pages. It's the message you get from it. The message is the only thing that counts.

Firstly, I'd like to clear the air. It is not "Loomis v. Aaron" so much as it is a discussion on whether a modern interpretation of the bible can truly support the mindset that is on display here. If you are to use the bible as the 'one true path to god', it is assuming all other holy books around the world are wrong. My main point there is that this is a fairly arrogant attitude: that is, "my book is right because it is written by my god who is right. They can all pratice what they want, but it is wrong".

DK brings me back to my original point. I am not one to quibble over a few mistranslated words, but the powers that be have passed down the bible for generations, being translated to hundreds of different languages. Is it not possible the message could be distorted along the way?

The message IS the most important thing, and that is why it sickens me to see people refer to the bible to support their arguments of elitism. It is pulling yourself up by your own bootstraps. "My god is right because his bible says so and the bible says so because he is right". I'm not disputing anyone's faith, but I am disputing using the bible to support why that faith is better than anyone else's.

If this debate has developed into a flame war between Aaron and myself, then it is because he is the one insisting that his path is the only right path, completely disenfranchising the rest of us.

[AwallaceUNC]

Wow, you already know which way god has chosen?

Yes, from the Bible. And now we round the circle for lap 2...

You've died and come back then, full of knowledge? Dude, that is cool!

No, because whereas God speaks from knowledge, I speak from faith.

Me? I've never been confident enough to speak for god. "See this in the bible? THIS is what god means..."

It is the Bible itself that is God speaking. I don't presume to enter that line of communication at any point.

So I argue again - is that really freedom at all? It is like saying "You have this WHOLE prison to yourself". Sure you can't go outside, but within the confines of that prison you can do what you want. I would hardly call that freedom.

But you CAN go outside of the "prison." Living a non-Christian lifestyle allows one to do things that the flesh desires, so there's a definite attraction there. That's why Christians are so often tempted.

No, but I was playing "devil's advocate" (pun intended). If choosing to live my life in peace without harming others, but as a non-Christian, is wrong - then obviously THAT path leads to hell or purgatory as well.

Well that leaves us in a bit of grid-lock on that. As I believe Hell to be a literal, physical, horrible place, this of course saddens me. But I respect your right to hold that belief, and offer only prayer.

Kelvin- very well-said. Though I think (not sure, though) that we may disagree slightly on the importance of the text itself (and by that, I mean the words, not the actual ink and paper, lol), we agree everywhere else.

Although I don't believe other religions are correct, I respect them in the sense that I don't bash them when they express their view points nor do I judge them as people for it.

This is precisely what I mean in saying that I respect their right to hold their beliefs and religion. I respect the people, and their right, but the belief in Allah, for example, is something I don't respect. It's a fine line, but one that I feel (and my atheist/agnostic/Jewish peers would probably tell you) I walk with appropriate respect.

And of course, Kelvin, your input is always welcome. And PrinceAli is in this, too. lol.

Now, hopefully, there won't be another 5 replies already posted since I began this post, as has been the case the last few times, lol. I think all of UD.com is in this one thread tonight.

-Aaron

[Disneykid]

If you are to use the bible as the 'one true path to god', it is assuming all other holy books around the world are wrong. My main point there is that this is a fairly arrogant attitude: that is, "my book is right because it is written by my god who is right. They can all pratice what they want, but it is wrong".

That's brings me back to what I was saying before, though. No matter what you believe, you're going to believe you're right plain and simple. I can't imagine anyone saying they're for something without standing behind it 100%. It seems someone like that doesn't place enough faith in what they believe in and if so, what's the point in believing period? I'm always conscious about my faith around others, too, because like you said, this can come across as very arrogant, which also brings me back to the respect of other people's religions issue. My closest friends aren't even Christians, yet I don't rub my beliefs in their faces and go around saying I'm right and they're wrong. I tolerate their opinion just like they tolerate mine.

The message IS the most important thing, and that is why it sickens me to see people refer to the bible to support their arguments of elitism. It is pulling yourself up by your own bootstraps. "My god is right because his bible says so and the bible says so because he is right". I'm not disputing anyone's faith, but I am disputing using the bible to support why that faith is better than anyone else's.

Well, it still goes back to faith. We believe the Bible is true and from God. Why? It's like they say in the Apple Jacks commercials, "We just do!" We can't lay out evidence for you for why we believe what we believe. It's just something that we identify with personally. Anywho, I dunno if you're just targeting Christianity, but couldn't your post apply to virtually everything such as the Koran? Christians aren't the only people who believe their sacred document is the "right" one.

If this debate has developed into a flame war between Aaron and myself, then it is because he is the one insisting that his path is the only right path, completely disenfranchising the rest of us.

Oh, no no no, I didn't mean it like that. I meant that you and Aaron were like the main debators in this thread and I was wary of stepping in and getting involved (even though I just did ). On the contrary, I think this whole debate (while ever so slightly heated) has been handled quite maturely. For an example on how NOT to debate on religion, visit any thread on IMDb's Passion of the Christ board, where threads will conclude with posts such as "God's dumb!" "No he's not! You are!" "Shut up, fag!" etc. It's nice to know everyone on the boards is sensible enough not to make this too personal.

[umbreongirl]

I'm gonna just walk away.................

I don't read the bible. I should, though. But I sadly don't. My mom has read it a couple times. ._. It's good SHE read it. My dad, when I was much younger, used to read it to me as a bedtime story.

Hey, did anyone know the holidays are pagen? And christ wasn't born on christmas. He was born sometime in september. (I saw it on a movie. It was like....a jewish movie......I think they're right though.)

............falme me all ya want or whatever, I'm beleiving the movie...>.>

[AwallaceUNC]

Hey, did anyone know the holidays are pagen? And christ wasn't born on christmas. He was born sometime in september. (I saw it on a movie. It was like....a jewish movie......I think they're right though.)

Yeah, Pagan in origin, at least. I've even heard of research/speculation that Jesus could have been born on Halloween, which would be very interesting, indeed. I don't at all discount it. Are the Easter events believed to have occurred in the April/May timeframe, though? I'm not sure on that.

-Aaron