Transsexuals!

[Dr Frankenollie]

Well...this is a subject that has been buzzing around in my head for a few days now. I've never paid it much thought before.

Y'know, it's funny: we have come incredibly far in an incredibly short time. A century ago, it may have been seen as shocking or unacceptable to suggest something like all ethnicities and races are equal. Now, using the N-word would provoke such shock. It's blissfully wonderful how the majority of people in the Western world have accepted people of difference, and rejected sexism, racism and homophobia. If there's any reason to stop being misanthropic, then humanity's moral progression - as well as its awe-inspiring scientific progression - is a good one. Yet - and don't misunderstand me - there might be a little danger to this new world. In the sense that intolerant bigots might silence themselves out of pressure and fear. This is, in my opinion, always a bad thing, regardless of the situation. If they felt more prepared to simply state their prejudices and intolerance, then perhaps others would talk to them, discuss and argue the issue, and perhaps instead of such people keeping their prejudices private, they might have them changed. Besides, everyone should be willing to question and criticise absolutely anything and everything.

So - this is a long-winded build-up to the fact that, well, despite being gay, I am...questioning transsexualism. Let me be hasty to assure you: I don't hate or fear transsexuals or anything like that. And I am willing to change my opinion. This is why I'm bringing it up here for discussion. I'm willing to be corrected. Yet at this point in time I think there is something fundamentally mistaken, so to speak, regarding transsexualism. Maybe I'm an ignorant bigot, but this is how I feel.

The thing is, I think transsexualism is founded on the concept that there is a dichotomy between males and females, and that each gender adheres to certain stereotypes and forms of behaviour. Men do this, women do that. And then, because of this being the way society teaches people about how gender works, a boy might want to be a girl because he dislikes sport, but loves long-hair, dresses and make-up; or maybe a girl doesn't want to be a fairy princess, but a knight or superhero instead. If this is the crux of what transsexualism is about, then I think this is a horrid idea. If you're a man, you can still like pink and wear dresses! Even if you're a woman, you can still behave like a stereotypical man! It seems to me that people begin to believe that certain behaviours and personas can only be valid with a certain gender, so they try to change their gender. I think that transsexualism therefore reinforces gender stereotypes and traditional gender roles.

I'm baffled by the whole concept of a "gender identity". I don't feel as though I have a gender identity. I merely see myself as a human. The only times I have the "gender identity" of a male are when I think to myself "Hey, I've got an X chromosome and a Y chromosome!" or when I notice, for example, that I cannot get pregnant. Being male or female has nothing to do with your behaviour or your personality. Gender is just a matter of biology. And even when transsexuals have sexual reassignment surgery, what's the point of changing themselves if they are going to be, deep down, their original gender regardless? MTF transsexuals will never be pregnant; FTM transsexuals cannot suddenly produce semen.

Rest assured: I will always, always, ALWAYS support an individual's right to have gender reassignment surgery if they want to. Equally, people should have the liberty to smoke, drink, do drugs and even kill themselves if they so wish. It's their individual life, and no one else should have a say in it. However, I question whether children, especially ones only 5 or 6 years old, should have gender reassignment surgery. Surely they are too young and immature to make such a monumental decision, a decision that they might one day regret.

Thus...let's discuss this. And not just my questioning of transsexualism, but let's discuss stories and the current legalities of it in various countries. It's a subject often neglected that ought to be talked about more.

And, once again, I mean no offence and I am expressing no hatred or phobia. I apologise if I have caused any offence. I'm simply asking for discussion.

[Flanger-Hanger]

First, this could probably be moved to the "Are You Gay?" thread since it's meant to be inclusive of all things LGBT related, which this discussion would fall under.

Secondly, I'll define transgenderism vs. transsexualism as was taught to me in sociology. The first involves not identifying with gender norms and acting and dressing whatever way you choose (what your suggesting) while the second is for those who feel so uncomfortable with their assigned sex at birth that they need to change it to feel happy.

I agree that we should not judge each other on gender norms and that if people want to undergo sex-reassignment surgery it should be allowed. There should also be laws (as have been developed in some places) to protect those who are concerned with gender identity in the areas of employment, housing and so on. I know some places even allow you to not list either "male" or "female" on a passport, but I could see issue with using that in countries that would frown upon such practices.

Outside of one famous case, I've never heard of children undergoing reassignment surgery. I would think that should be done at or after 18, but I can't speak for those that wish to do so and trying to will only make me look ignorant so I won't. I don't like people judging me for my sexual preference so I won't do so for others.

I think the best thing to be done is to support individual freedoms and people's right to choose. While I don't want to change my sex, I don't see the harm in letting others do so. I don't see any threat to society in letting people try and feel better about themselves. Transsexuals are without question still capable of being productive and caring people in society and that's all that really matters.

The acronym LGBT might as well be a ranking of social acceptability of its four components with "T" a distant last and by far the worst treated, even amongst gay people. Maybe discouraging unflinching standards for gender norms would reduce the number of people who want to change their sex, I don't know. I just know that doing so and supporting "Ts" is probably the best overall thing to do.

[Flanger-Hanger]

On a similar (or maybe not really) note, I was once asked if I believed in bisexuality by another gay man. In short I do, but trying to break down the psychology of it only understated how difficult and pointless it was for me to fret about how other people feel about their gender or attraction towards others.

[Dr Frankenollie]

I wasn't sure whether to put it in the Gay thread, considering that although they are part of the same acronym, they are largely different things.

The primary quibble I had was whether gender reassignment surgery would be the best thing for them. Still, it has been seen as a good "cure", so to speak, for transsexual feelings.

I agree that we should not judge each other on gender norms and that if people want to undergo sex-reassignment surgery it should be allowed. There should also be laws (as have been developed in some places) to protect those who are concerned with gender identity in the areas of employment, housing and so on. I know some places even allow you to not list either "male" or "female" on a passport, but I could see issue with using that in countries that would frown upon such practices.

Outside of one famous case, I've never heard of children undergoing reassignment surgery.

I have heard of many examples, with the most recent being Coy Mathis. One boy, who fit into the transgender model you referred to, became a girl at about age 7 because he liked the colour pink, Barbie and fairies. If there is an individual who has biological problems or whose transsexual feelings seem to stem from something biological, then of course they should be allowed to have gender reassignment surgery, even as a child. However, particularly young transgender children makes me uneasy, in a manner. I don't think people at that age should have the freedom to make decisions like that, especially considering that those decisions wouldn't be based on arguably rational or legitimate criteria (desiring to have a penis if a girl, or breasts if a boy, etc.), and instead on stereotypes.

From my own perspective, I think it would be simpler and healthier for people to accept what they are born as, because, ultimately, transsexuals will never change gender. There is an undeniable divide, yet it is not necessarily or inherently a sociological one. It's merely a superficial, genetic one, something which would only be regarded as representative of who a person is by shallow people. If they want to, they should, but it seems futile and unnecessary. Nevertheless...as you suggested, I can't get into their psyche. I cannot understand the psychology behind it, so perhaps it's unfair for me to judge.

On a related note: I think that, despite the unquestionable biological/genetic dichotomy between genders, there should be social reforms to break down any sociological dichotomies. For example, I think public toilets should be unisexual, and more obviously, I believe the media should break down stereotypes of men and women.

[Siren]

Transgender people have never bothered me. Once I was in a women's restroom and the person next to me washing their hands, I believe they were a transsexual. I was not offended or afraid. I honestly think there should be non-gender specific restrooms....like family restrooms. It would be nice, but I fear it is far off from happening. Even further off is for people to just get over it.

[ajmrowland]

Well, seven year olds have surprised before. I think it is dependent on the individual.


But I do have to say I agree with Dr. frankenollie about how people should accept how they are born. Unfortunately, that just doesn't seem to be the way the world works.

Transgender people have never bothered me. Once I was in a women's restroom and the person next to me washing their hands, I believe they were a transsexual. I was not offended or afraid. I honestly think there should be non-gender specific restrooms....like family restrooms. It would be nice, but I fear it is far off from happening. Even further off is for people to just get over it.

There are places in Britain and Europe that have unisex restrooms. It's far off in America where it's somehow associated with animalism.

[Wonderlicious]

There are places in Britain and Europe that have unisex restrooms. It's far off in America where it's somehow associated with animalism.

I know some universities have unisex toilets for this reason (the University of Manchester being one of them), and I've been to a gay club where there were unisex toilets as well.

When did the T get added to LGBT? I know there are people with both sexual orientation and gender identity issues, but I do feel that they are ultimately somewhat different. I know, for example, that while I am attracted to men, I too am a man. I also feel that, a lot of the time, people do seem to forget to discuss the T issues when throwing around the term LGBT.

That said, by no means do I consider trans people inferior beings, and they deserve as many rights and acceptance as any member of society. It's simply a matter of human rights.

[Disney Duster]

I'm glad you made your own thread. I don't think transexuality should be lumped in with sexual attraction.

And I kind of see and agree with Frankenollie's point about the sex your born into being who you are and that you should love it. 'Course, also like him, I do support those who feel they need to change their sex, even though I feel they shouldn't.

[FlyingPiggy]

It's a physiological congenital condition.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn2 ... ep0qI1QG8A

There's a spectrum of seriousness. It ranges from feeling like one "was born in the wrong body" from childhood, to feeling like something is "off" but having no idea what. Either way people do not feel pressured into being trans, no they feel pressured not to be trans and to not be their true themselves.

You don't notice you have a gender identity because your cis. Your biological gender matches your biological sex. Your brain is very happy to get the high levels of testosterone it does.

And 5 & 6 years old do not get gender reassignment surgery. Where on earth did you hear this?? Pre-pubescent children do not get surgery. No. The treatment they receive is therapy (if needed), and being allowed to live as the correct gender. Then when they're at puberty age they're put on GnRHs to delay puberty. Then when they're in their teens they get approval to start hormone therapy and go thought the correct puberty. THEN if they want to they can look into getting reassignment surgery.


What do you read? What classes do you take? Where sources do you mold your opinions off of? Your opinions are... hard for me to place.

[Dr Frankenollie]

What do you read? What classes do you take? Where sources do you mold your opinions off of? Your opinions are... hard for me to place.

I shall openly admit that I have spoken from a position of relative ignorance on the subject; I have not read any books on transsexuals or taken classes on them. I have derived and inferred all knowledge primarily from the Internet. My opinions are not moulded on any sources but my own ideological principles. I came to the position of questioning transsexual psychology through my own thoughts and ponderings, which is likely why my views are hard to place.

I was wrong when I said children as young as 5 or 6 had surgery; what I misunderstood was the use of hormone therapy and so forth in these children.

[FlyingPiggy]

What do you read? What classes do you take? Where sources do you mold your opinions off of? Your opinions are... hard for me to place.

I shall openly admit that I have spoken from a position of relative ignorance on the subject; I have not read any books on transsexuals or taken classes on them. I have derived and inferred all knowledge primarily from the Internet. My opinions are not moulded on any sources but my own ideological principles. I came to the position of questioning transsexual psychology through my own thoughts and ponderings, which is likely why my views are hard to place.

I was wrong when I said children as young as 5 or 6 had surgery; what I misunderstood was the use of hormone therapy and so forth in these children.

I meant in general, not just about this.