Oscar for Best Animated Feature 2012

[pap64]

Frankenweenie winning just to throw Burton a bone would be such a typical thing for the Academy to do. He was robbed a Best Picture and Best Director nomination twice before (for Ed Wood and most notably Big Fish).

I mean I get that his films aren't the academy's cup of tea, but Big Fish is both better and more memorable than Seabiscuit or Master & Commander. Easily his most sincere and beautiful film.

I'm rooting for Ralph to win, but if it doesn't, I'd say Paranorman is a worthy winner.

Wouldn't be surprised if they did that. When Randy Newman won, he won for a song that is barely memorable in a non-musical (Monsters Inc), because he had been nominated like ten times and had not won at all. So if Frankenweenie wins, it is a pity win.

But in all honesty, I would rather have it so that Frankenweenie wins instead of ParaNorman, even if neither deserve the win. That's right, I said it.

Both movies have severe story issues and it STUNS me that they have gotten great to fantastic reviews as if they were flawless. In fact, I dare to say that had they been conceived as CG movies, they would have been trashed left and right for it. Both movies suffer from characters that are archetypes, thus making them hard to relate and root for. Frankenweenie, at least, edges it out because the characters at least are a tad more endearing in their homage to classic horror characters.

Frankenweenie also raises a lot of story points that are ignored and never resolved, like how it was suggested that a relationship would blossom out of Victor and Elsa's friendship, but they don't go anywhere with it, or how the movie is pro-science yet focuses on the dangers science can bring. That's not even counting all the cliches related to Burton's productions (fat jerk, undead dog, too much eye shadow). But even with all of that, Frankenweenie's story does a lot better than ParaNorman's, which has a heinous story featuring some of the deplorable characters ever.

ParaNorman is a very angry movie that has characters that you hate. There was NO character that I liked, not even Norman. It doesn't even know who it targets itself to. The humor at times is too adult for children, and at times too childish and morbid for the adults. Coraline had similar issues, but avoided a lot of them by focusing on the eerie whimsy of the fantasy world along with characters that, while unnecessarily quirky, were still charming. ParaNorman fails to do that.

Again it stuns me that both movies seemed to get a pass on that when other movies with less flaws get much lower scores and harsher criticism. I get that we should welcome new stories and form in animation, but all the ambition and new ideas of the world do not excuse poor story and characters, and I think animation fans and critics should realize that before putting a movie up on a pedestal.

[Disney's Divinity]

Thank you, BK , for that list. Yes, it always looked to be between ParaNorman and Frankenweenie. I personally hope it's ParaNorman, but either way would be nice. It's too bad Rise of the Guardians is out of the running, practically.

[qindarka]

Thank you, BK , for that list. Yes, it always looked to be between ParaNorman and Frankenweenie. I personally hope it's ParaNorman, but either way would be nice. It's too bad Rise of the Guardians is out of the running, practically.

Have you watched Rise of the Guardians yet?

Again it stuns me that both movies seemed to get a pass on that when other movies with less flaws get much lower scores and harsher criticism. I get that we should welcome new stories and form in animation, but all the ambition and new ideas of the world do not excuse poor story and characters, and I think animation fans and critics should realize that before putting a movie up on a pedestal.

Exactly. We have a very annoying tendency to view anything different, whether it be in terms of style or content, as automatically being better. The stop-motion style of animation should be encouraged and the animation in Paranorman in particular is phenomenal, yet what does that all matter when its story and characters (mainly the characters) are so pathetic.

[Polizzi]

Thank you, BK, for that list. Yes, it always looked to be between ParaNorman and Frankenweenie. I personally hope it's ParaNorman, but either way would be nice. It's too bad Rise of the Guardians is out of the running, practically.

Have you watched Rise of the Guardians yet?

I have. It's not as good as you think. The story is kind of too typical (more like a rip-off to Marvel's "The Avengers"), and some scenes are ridiculous. All the movie does is entice the audience with holiday gags, humor, and delaying scenes. However, there are some scenes that support the story. Like Jack trying to figure out what his memory is from the Tooth Fairy, Sand Man resurrect from non-existence to reality, and Pitch (the Boogeyman) getting dragged by his nightmares like Dr. Facilier getting dragged by his friends on the other side from Disney's "The Princess and the Frog (another rip-off)."

P.S. I vote for Disney's "Frankenweenie."

[qindarka]

I have. It's not as good as you think. The story is kind of too typical (more like a rip-off to Marvel's "The Avengers"), and some scenes are ridiculous. All the movie does is entice the audience with holiday gags, humor, and delaying scenes. However, there are some scenes that support the story. Like Jack trying to figure out what his memory is from the Tooth Fairy, Sand Man resurrect from non-existence to reality, and Pitch (the Boogeyman) getting dragged by his nightmares like Dr. Facilier getting dragged by his friends on the other side from Disney's "The Princess and the Frog."

P.S. I vote for Disney's "Frankenweenie."

Jeez, it's hardly a rip-off of the Avengers. The concept of heroes teaming up has been around for a long time. And of course, it was in production for a few years before the smashing success of The Avengers film in 2012.

I liked it a lot. Story has a host of problems though. Prefer Brave and Wreck-it-Ralph over it but wouldn't complain if it got nominated.

[pap64]

Again it stuns me that both movies seemed to get a pass on that when other movies with less flaws get much lower scores and harsher criticism. I get that we should welcome new stories and form in animation, but all the ambition and new ideas of the world do not excuse poor story and characters, and I think animation fans and critics should realize that before putting a movie up on a pedestal.

Exactly. We have a very annoying tendency to view anything different, whether it be in terms of style or content, as automatically being better. The stop-motion style of animation should be encouraged and the animation in Paranorman in particular is phenomenal, yet what does that all matter when its story and characters (mainly the characters) are so pathetic.

ParaNorman, much like Rango last year, is a case of style over substance. They focused so much on creating this world and its characters that they put a lot less attention to the main characters and thus the story suffers for it. Plus I still can't believe that they did not have a vision of who was the movie created for.

I say this because Disney, Pixar and even Dreamworks have nailed the idea of creating stories that are very layered and appealing to children and adults. Take WALL-E. Children could enjoy the cute robots and humor, while adults could enjoy the jabs at mass consumerism and the deeper concepts behind how we treat the environment. And both could be easily won over by the robotic love stories, the stunning music and visuals. I mean, no one had an issue when the first half of the movie was a silent movie save for noises and random robotic phrases.

With ParaNorman, there are some moments where you are left wondering who was the movie made for. Like when Neil asked Norman if he saw the spirit of his dead dog, and we see the dog was split in half while Neil explains his ironic death, I was like "The HELL?". It's a short scene but it is extremely morbid yet it is being played for laughs. Then when you see Neil's older brother shirtless all the time, and then Norman's older sister all over him.

Then there's the really awkward relationship between Norman and his father, which is pretty much the gender swapped version of Coraline and her mother sans the ghost seeing ability and horribly handled. It's funny because Brave took that concept and made it better (despite what critics said about it). The story in Brave knew that in order for it to be effective, they had to show both sides of the story and have the characters come to a mutual understand so the relationship would blossom.

In ParaNorman, the movie just flat out demonizes the father while Norman is made out to be the horrible victim of EVERYONE'S abuse. Oh sure near the end they kind of make the point that Norman had to be more open to the world, but that also comes off as excusing bullying. In a way, Norman HAD more than enough right to isolate himself because no one gave him a chance, and even Neil befriended him because he thought Norman was cool, not because he really wanted to be friends with. In short, it's just a very angry, very frustrated movie, like it was made by someone who may have led a similar life to Norman's and hoping that by venting through the story people would get it.

So once again, it surprises me that no one really noticed those issues and were quick to claim it to be THE best movie of the year when there were better movies out there. I mean, Wreck-It Ralph told a similar misfit story, but handled it way better because it didn't set out to demonize anyone (except for the Sugar Rush racers, but there is a clear reason why which I won't spoil). Best of all, it did it in a balanced manner. It was emotional without being melodramatic, it was funny but not overly mean spirited, it had action, drama and romance, and best of all, those elements were delivered through unconventional methods (the main male and female characters are not lovers, the ones that do fall in love are surprising).

I'm sorry if this offends anyone that genuinely loves ParaNorman. I just don't see its appeal when similar stories have been told in the past and did a way better job at it.

[qindarka]

With ParaNorman, there are some moments where you are left wondering who was the movie made for. Like when Neil asked Norman if he saw the spirit of his dead dog, and we see the dog was split in half while Neil explains his ironic death, I was like "The HELL?". It's a short scene but it is extremely morbid yet it is being played for laughs. Then when you see Neil's older brother shirtless all the time, and then Norman's older sister all over him.

Then there's the really awkward relationship between Norman and his father, which is pretty much the gender swapped version of Coraline and her mother sans the ghost seeing ability and horribly handled. It's funny because Brave took that concept and made it better (despite what critics said about it). The story in Brave knew that in order for it to be effective, they had to show both sides of the story and have the characters come to a mutual understand so the relationship would blossom.

In ParaNorman, the movie just flat out demonizes the father while Norman is made out to be the horrible victim of EVERYONE'S abuse. Oh sure near the end they kind of make the point that Norman had to be more open to the world, but that also comes off as excusing bullying. In a way, Norman HAD more than enough right to isolate himself because no one gave him a chance, and even Neil befriended him because he thought Norman was cool, not because he really wanted to be friends with. In short, it's just a very angry, very frustrated movie, like it was made by someone who may have led a similar life to Norman's and hoping that by venting through the story people would get it.

Spot on. The father was really a terrible character. With his son in mortal danger, what does he do? He pretty much asks him to stop embarrassing him. I don't ask that characters in fiction perfectly reflect reality but its the bare minimum that they act somewhat logically. He doesn't exist as a character in his own right with realistic motivations and actions, he only exists to make Norman's life miserable and drive home the message of the film. Plot at expense of character. Same goes for other characters as well, especially Norman's sister. There was that idiotic scene in the library when she and the other idiot give up searching for Agatha's grave and she tells Norman to 'live in the real world'. She says this while there are Zombies outside, and this is still at the point of the film when they and the audience are supposed to regard the Zombies as a threat. Yet she continues to say such crap, anything to make Norman even more miserable, I guess. This also has the effect of diminishing, I would say completely destroying, the impact of the 'heartwarming' scene when she and the others stick up for Norman. They've acted so idiotically before, why are we supposed to believe that they would support him now. Not that there was any character development for them between the two scenes.
And I'm really ragging on the film now but same goes as well for the other townspeople. I refuse to believe that 21st century Americans would want to kill a child for bullshit reasons. I've said this before but whatever, anything to make Norman miserable. Who cares about proper characterization when you have THE MESSAGE to drive home?

And for all that the filmmakers throw characterization into the gutter to focus on their message, they somehow manage to botch their message as well. It was intended to show that bullying is bad, we should be tolerant blah blah and that revenge is also bad. That's fine. But they really do veer into victim blaming at times, perhaps inadvertently but I can still call them out on it. Throughout the film, the motivation given for bullying (for both Norman and Agatha) is fear. I find this insulting. Don't be too hard on bullies, boys and girls, they are just scared little lambs. Also, Norman's ridiculous conversation with Agatha at the climax, where Norman says something to this effect, "You shied away when bullied, this makes those poor bullies even more scared". So somehow it's now the victims fault that they were bullied, they didn't react well enough to it, apparently. I also find Norman ridiculously patronising when he accuses Agatha of being just as bad as the zombies she are tormenting. Obviously, revenge is wrong but trying to pass her actions off as being morally equivalent to hanging a young girl is ridiculous.

And they really should have put more emphasis on the relationship between Norman and Neil, given that the movie is trying to teach those who are bullied to seek solace with the good things they have, for Agatha being her mother, and for Norman being a genuine friend.

ParaNorman, much like Rango last year, is a case of style over substance. They focused so much on creating this world and its characters that they put a lot less attention to the main characters and thus the story suffers for it. Plus I still can't believe that they did not have a vision of who was the movie created for.

Would say the same for Coraline and The Nightmare Before Christmas as well. Among the stop-motion films of this ilk, Corpse Bride is the only one I rate. Haven't watched Frankenweenie yet though.

[Pokeholic_Prince]

I can see some of the complaints that you guys seem to have with Paranorman, but the thing is that most stop-motion films tend to be dark and morbid with quirky humor and characters. I typically don't like these styles of movies because they tend to be too quirky, however, it works here. Sure the characters are archetypes, but that doesn't mean that they're not entertaining. And the movie goes in a lot of unpredictable directions. The music and animation are just beautiful. I thought the message of the movie was more about tolarence and forgiveness. Also it parodies and makes fun of horror movies and their general formula. The writing is top-notch and that's why people tend to like. Plus it is different and more gutsy than most animated film.

P.S. It's my 3rd favorite animation of the year.

[WonderNeverOz]

Since the nominees announcement is soon, let's all make a prediction list!

mine is.....

1. ParaNorman
2. Frankenweenie
3. Wreck-it Ralph
4. Brave
5. The Painting(Le Tabeau) or From Up on Poppy Hill

Movie that i think will win: ParaNorman
Movie that i hope wins: Wreck-it Ralph

[Sotiris]

My predictions:

Brave
Wreck-It Ralph
Rise of the Guardians
Frankenweenie
The Rabbi's Cat

with Frankenweenie as the winner.

[PatrickvD]

My predictions:

Brave
Wreck-It Ralph
Rise of the Guardians
Frankenweenie
The Rabbi's Cat

with Frankenweenie as the winner.

Paranorman not in?

It has swept the critics awards. There's no way it's not getting nominated. Don't let its exclusion at the Golden Globes fool you, it's the animated film to beat this year.

[estefan]

I think the nominees will be:

Wreck-It Ralph
ParaNorman
Frankenweenie
Brave
The Rabbi's Cat

The first three all have strong shots (really exciting to have this category be competitive for once and not have a clear victor), but at the moment, I'm predicting Frankenweenie wins it. But so much could happen between now and when the voters send in their final ballots.

[DisneyJedi]

I think the nominees will be:

Wreck-It Ralph
ParaNorman
Frankenweenie
Brave
The Rabbi's Cat

The first three all have strong shots (really exciting to have this category be competitive for once and not have a clear victor), but at the moment, I'm predicting Frankenweenie wins it. But so much could happen between now and when the voters send in their final ballots.

I hope so.

Well, for the nominees, I mean.

[ProfessorRatigan]

I just wanted to say: I COMPLETELY disagree with all this hate on ParaNorman. A hateful movie? Hardly. It was the most tender and sincere animated film I've seen since Ratatouille. It was not only my favorite animated film of the year, it was my favorite FILM of the year.

Spoilers follow.

This whole "The dad sucks because he's horrible to his son" complaint forgets that this is a film about reconciliation. The dad is NOT redeemed completely by the film's end, but he is making an effort. I found that to be wayyy more effective than, oh, suddenly dad is 100% changed at the end of the film and completely supportive. That would have been insincere, I find. All the characters who come around take some time to do so. It was fairly nuanced. I would compare the relationship between Norman and his Dad to that of a father having to come to terms with his son's sexuality. When you view it through that lens, it makes the father's uneasiness about his son being 'different' more...not justified, but certainly understandable. As Norman's mother says, "He's not afraid OF you. He's afraid FOR you." And thus, it's more heart-warming that the Father, despite being clearly uncomfortable, is putting forth an effort to TRY and change for his son at the end.

The film was surprising in its frankness about death and packed a touching, emotionally-resonant ending. I was surprised at how thoughtful, how unique and how daring this film was. On so many levels. It tackled many an intense theme (religious hysteria, mob mentality, child murder, revenge) and did so gracefully, coming through the other side with a wonderful message for children, and parents, too.

One of the things I especially liked about the film was how, at first, it seemed to set up each of the characters as nothing but a tired stereotype-- oh, Norman's the weird kid. The outcast. The bully is the dumb bully from every movie ever. The best friend is the silly fat kid. The friend's brother is the dumb jock. Norman's sister is the catty, fickle cheerleader-- And then broke them over the course of the film. Even the Zombies and the Witch, both stereotyped as, well, zombies and a witch, were fleshed out past that, and it really hammered home the theme about misunderstanding at the end.

I liked Wreck-It Ralph. It was fun. It was entertaining. But, ultimately, it was more of the same old by-the-numbers-Disney we've been seeing ever since around 2007/2008. It didn't tackle anything big and it didn't have any moments comparable to even just that ONE moment in ParaNorman, where Norman has just woken up in the town hall after receiving the vision of what the Puritans did to Aggie. Norman wakes, sees the zombie of the Judge and scrambles back, in fear and disgust. He says, simply, "How could you?" The look on the Zombie's face--That of regret and misjudgment and profound sorrow--That was magic. The way the rest of that scene, and several others (Norman's confrontation with Aggie, the last scene with the Father, most of Norman's scenes with his grandmother) were great moments. Moments that, as a film fan, I live for.

The ONLY thing I can criticize the film for is the character of Norman's hobo uncle, Mr. Prenderghast. Something about him seemed unnecessarily hammy. But he's only in the film for a total of, what, five minutes? His antics aren't given enough time to wear the film down.

(And way to GO, LAIKA, for putting an openly gay character in a mainstream animated film!)

So, yes, I hope ParaNorman wins the Best Animated Feature Oscar at the very least. Coraline was good. ParaNorman was a masterpiece. LAIKA is a company whose works I will be looking forward to with great interest from now on.

[WonderNeverOz]

I find it very interesting how many of the audience really loved wreck-it ralph, while the critics liked Frankenweenie and ParaNorman more.

Can anyone think of a reason?

[qindarka]

I find it very interesting how many of the audience really loved wreck-it ralph, while the critics liked Frankenweenie and ParaNorman more.

Can anyone think of a reason?

The critics are more refined than the general audience and appreciate higher works of art such as those two stop-motion films.

Actually, they were both mediocre. Who knows really? I suspect that it may have to do with the fact that they are 'different' from regular CG animated movies. Or that they deal with 'deeper' themes such as death, anti-intellectualism and persecution even if the films ended up making a hash out of them.

From looking at RT, critical reception seems to be roughly equal between all 3 films. I do generally put more faith in critics than the general audience, just disagree with them on these two in particular.

Anyway, these would be my preferred nominees:
Wreck-it-Ralph
Brave
Rise of the Guardians
Foreign animated film
Foreign animated film

Won't happen, though.

[ProfessorRatigan]

Actually, they were both mediocre.

Opinion.

I personally found Frankenweenie to be quite cute. Cute. But very, very slight and superficial. It's the best work Burton's done in years, but that's not really saying much. With the exception of Big Fish (his best film after Batman Returns, in my opinion) and Sweeney Todd, everything Burton has done since Sleepy Hollow has been pretty weak. Corpse Bride included. That film is so turgid and DULL.

[qindarka]

Actually, they were both mediocre.

Opinion.

Obviously.

Would agree with you on Frankenweenie. That film really doesn't know what it's aiming for. It has a host of ideas and sets up some relationships, with all of them being so underdeveloped.

Liked Corpse Bride though. Probably my favorite of these type of stop-motion films and is the only one I like at all. Nightmare before Christmas, Coraline and now Paranorman and Frankenweenie have all been disappointments.

[Disney's Divinity]

I personally found Frankenweenie to be quite cute. Cute. But very, very slight and superficial. It's the best work Burton's done in years, but that's not really saying much. With the exception of Big Fish (his best film after Batman Returns, in my opinion) and Sweeney Todd, everything Burton has done since Sleepy Hollow has been pretty weak. Corpse Bride included. That film is so turgid and DULL.

It’s strange how similar our opinions are--I agree with you entirely on ParaNorman. I hope very much that it wins the award. And like you, I also find Corpse Bride to be extremely overrated; I enjoy parts of it, but overall it is inferior to most other stop-motion films I've seen, by a wide margin. The dead side of the film is overly garish and unsatisfying to me, and the musical numbers are excruciating--particularly the one between the Bride, a spider, and the worm living inside her.

[Polizzi]

Top Critics on Rotten Tomatoes.

ParaNorman - 83%

Frankenweenie - 86%

I don't know about ParaNorman since the percentage is 3 points behind Frankenweenie. That's why I believe that Frankenweenie should win.