The Black Cauldron Appreciation Thread

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Post by KubrickFan »

Disney Duster wrote:Ultimate Disney said this about the latest film release's ratio:
"One of Disney's few very wide features, The Black Cauldron appears exclusively in 2.35:1 widescreen, enhanced for 16:9 displays as it should have been but wasn't its first time on DVD."

And Animated Views said this:
"Presented again in its intended 2.35:1 aspect, but this time anamorphically enhanced and spruced up by a digital wash..."

I'm surprised none are saying it's wrong, so maybe it isn't wrong?

Also, I realized that this got a really good, and it keeps grain but at a good level that doesn't interfere with the film. So, I just wish that all Disney films could get these "some grain yet still really amazingly good" transfers instead of the completely srcubbed, smoothed out, tampered looking ones.
The difference is very slight, so unless they measure it (which very few reviewers actually do) it can be overlooked.
About the grain, with every animated movie the grain would be very small, since it's being photographed in perfect conditions. With The Black Cauldron, the grain would be even smaller, since the horizontal use of the 35mm film gives a bigger negative to work with, so smaller grain. I don't know how the new version looks, so I can't comment on it.
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Post by Brer Brandon »

Slate has an article on The Black Cauldron!
It asks "Is the Movie that Almost Killed Disney Really That Bad?"
http://www.slate.com/id/2271209/
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Post by Disney Duster »

Well, thanks Kubrick. I probably have to dig really deep to figure out the correct ratio and if the DVD has it.

Brer Brandon, that article was pretty good, and pretty interesting, and the best part, "That Darn Hitler"! Ahahahahahahaaaa!!!! rotfl
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Post by Disney's Divinity »

I always hate to bring up a thread that’s not already up, but I watched The Black Cauldron this weekend and just wanted to share some thoughts (I would’ve just commented in the re-release thread, but that’s more about the DVD/Blu-Ray, so I felt this was probably best).

When I watched The Black Cauldron yesterday, I was very surprised by how much I enjoyed it. It’s not as if I’ve never seen the movie before, but it just left a much better impression on me this go round. This, along with Hunchback, is probably one of those few Disney movies where I always remember the movie as severely flawed and I underestimate it every time I go to watch it, but always end up loving it afterwards. I have no idea if it’s because of Disney’s subtle marketing of all the ‘70s-‘80s films as bad (as well as their put-down of some of the 90s lately, for some reason)--particularly where TBC is concerned, for being such a flop--but I always remember this movie as extremely bland, badly constructed, and boring. But I felt the complete opposite during this viewing.

Of course, I feel there are still some flaws (as with any movie): the characters are better than I remembered, but they do seem as if they don’t get enough screen time for you to get to know them properly. They--or, at least, Taran--are developed pretty well, but the plot’s need for them to go from place to place, and quickly, detracts a little from the goal of you believing them to be a “company of friends.” Gurgi, in particular, seems to suffer from this-- a character I did like, but seemed to get way too little screen time considering his significance later. Still, I enjoyed the characters for the most part. Of course, I always loved the Witches of Morva, but Fflewdur and Eilonwy shined more than I remembered. It really is a shame that Eilonwy is so overlooked by Disney--perhaps because of TBC’s status, but maybe because she’s too prepubescent to market? Anyway, she’s a strong character in the film. She was spunky, but not in an over-done way like with Belle, Jasmine, and sometimes Ariel (the only scene I’m referring to is the “I’m not a child!” scene--she doesn’t seem that bad anywhere else to me). I don’t think they’ve had a “spunky” character that’s balanced that well again until Tiana (who has the fieriness of the early ‘90s heroines combined with the maturity of the later ‘90s’ Pocahontas, Mulan, and Megara).

The only other weakness I remember from the film is the Horned King’s design. I think it’s effective when they don’t zoom in on his face--because the “skeleton” concept comes across more silly than it does scary (such as when he yells into the camera for the Cauldron to bring the dead alive, and then in the last scene where he goes after Taran). Especially when they add the red to his eyes, it doesn’t work very well. But I love the first scene they have of him. I’ve read a lot of comments over the years about the voice actor for the Horned King, but I thought he did pretty well (I thought the voices for the Horned King, Fflewdur, and Eilonwy all did really well--I found Taran’s voice to be a little miscast, in that he came across maybe too annoying at times). I can understand why some people might find the performance for the Horned King to be a little underwhelming or perhaps boring, but I thought he gave a “madness” to the character--again, especially in his first scene. (It’s really hard to imagine this character ever being conceptualized with a song).

Also, I thought the antagonist-protagonist dynamic was done well, in the sense that they are complete opposites. Of course, that’s not as complex or interesting as, say, Tremaine and Cinderella, or Quasi and Frollo, but it always highlights what’s good about the protagonist to have them completely opposed to one another. Ambition drives the King to evil, whereas Taran willingly gives up his ambition (twice) for the good. And then later, Gurgi who sacrifices himself versus Creeper who is glad the King is dead.

The film had its humorous moments, too. Of course, there’s the Orwen and Fflewdur scene (which I always loved, even as a child), but Doli was good, too (though not as good as Merlin, a similar kind of character). I’ve read the book series before, though it’s been a really long time and I only remember some of the major details--I really want to read it again now.

About the animation, all I can really say is that it came across well-animated to me (I don’t know enough technical info. to venture more than that, because I don’t want to sound arrogant). There were some beautiful backgrounds in this film, particularly the scene in the woods following the group’s escape from the Horned King’s castle. I love the atmosphere to several of the scenes, too, such as the scene where Taran’s washing Henwen--the way it centers in on Henwen’s face gave me (and always has given me) chills. Then there’s the scene where the dragons capture Henwen later, which I thought was disturbing, too. I loved the shot, afterwards, of Taran looking onto the Gwythaints flying to the Horned King’s castle. Also, I think in some ways, Taran was Ariel and Belle’s predecessor as far as animation goes, in that he looks different in many of the scenes--probably more distracting than with those two, for me.

Oh, and, about the atmosphere of the film, maybe it’s just me, but I really loved the score to this film. The bizarre background music really added a something to most of the movie. Although, personally, some of it was ruined because that really high “wooh” sound (the one that plays when it zooms up on the Horned King’s castle after Taran leaves Gurgi on the mountain to go rescue Henwen) forever reminds me of Mars Attacks! now.

Overall, the film is much better than it’s given credit for. I feel that it falls in the same category as Treasure Planet that way (although, I have to admit, TP is probably more flawed than TBC, though the characters are far more engaging). Both films were in complex and conflicted times for the studio, and both were probably considered bigger failures than they really were because of the extensive use of special effects (which no doubt costed a lot). The only real criticism I could think of for the film is that, for some reason, it doesn’t feel “Disney” to me--the muted colors, the austere atmosphere, and so on always comes across as the work of another studio, and not because of the genre or the source material, which in concept would lend itself well to a Disney film, imo. And not even because of the “adult” use of skeletons, blood, etc., which I think could be used and still feel like a Disney film. (I don’t really believe in an overarching Disney essence, but there’s something about this movie that doesn’t sit well with most of their other films). It particularly reminds me of several Don Bluth films; something about Taran’s animation feels a little too detailed, like in [/I]Thumbelina[/I] or The Secret of NIMH. I know Don Bluth was at the studio around this time, but I don’t now how much of a role he would’ve played, so I’m not sure if that’s coincidence or not. I also feel that, as I said in the re-release thread, in some ways it feels as if the movie’s lacking that moment where it goes the limit for what it’s trying to be (which, unfortunately, might have been the gruesome scenes management cut from the film). Though there’s still some of that edge there (such as the bloody cauldron I decided to use for my banner of the film; :wink: ), even if it’s somewhat subdued. Regardless, the movie has seriously moved up the ranks, in my opinion. As far as the 80s goes, it’s probably my favorite after The Little Mermaid and The Great Mouse Detective. You know, I’m starting to feel that the ‘80s really wasn’t that bad of a decade. The Fox and the Hound and Oliver and Company were decent films as well, imo. Of course, The Black Cauldron’s still not near my top ten, but it’s something I’ll remember better now.

Btw, it might just be because one of my English classes is focused on psychoanalytic theory right now, but I found the Witches’ deal with Taran a little Freudian (and a little sexist in that context--considering I find that particular theory of Freud’s to be sexist). “I’ve never seen a sword like that!” And then, “What can they do with the Cauldron?” “Nothing! We’ll have both!” And then Fflewdur at the end, “You’ve got no real power!” And then they take the Cauldron and Gurgi is re-born. Don’t take me seriously. Just wanted to put that out there.

In response to Disney Duster from another thread, that picture you were asking about--it’s of the scene where Taran is dreaming of being a warrior in the pond. Thanks for the comments! I really liked the banner, too. I was only worried about that one picture of Taran on the right side, because for some reason I couldn’t get it to fit in well with everything else. I’m still conflicted. Maybe in the future, I’ll go back and fix that part of it. Anyway, I wanted to do another movie, but I also wanted to have something that kind of fit the mood for Halloween. The Black Cauldron seemed to fit perfectly.
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Post by blackcauldron85 »

Disney's Divinity wrote:I know Don Bluth was at the studio around this time, but I don’t now how much of a role he would’ve played, so I’m not sure if that’s coincidence or not.
IIRC, Bluth did some pre-production work on the film, but he left in 1979.
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Post by Goliath »

Disney's Divinity wrote:I always hate to bring up a thread that’s not already up, but I watched The Black Cauldron this weekend and just wanted to share some thoughts (I would’ve just commented in the re-release thread, but that’s more about the DVD/Blu-Ray, so I felt this was probably best).
I'm so glad you brought back this thread to give your opinions. It was a delight to read. There's so much in there I could have written myself, it was almost scary. ;)
Disney's Divinity wrote:When I watched The Black Cauldron yesterday, I was very surprised by how much I enjoyed it. It’s not as if I’ve never seen the movie before, but it just left a much better impression on me this go round. [...] I have no idea if it’s because of Disney’s subtle marketing of all the ‘70s-‘80s films as bad (as well as their put-down of some of the 90s lately, for some reason)--particularly where TBC is concerned, for being such a flop--but I always remember this movie as extremely bland, badly constructed, and boring. But I felt the complete opposite during this viewing.
That's funny, the exact same thing happened to me when I watched it last month, on the new DVD. I felt the same way. Maybe it has something to do with the myth of 'the Dark Age of Disney', but couldn't it have something to do with the fact that this is the first time we were able to watch the film the way it was meant --in the right aspect ratio, beautifully cleaned-up? I've always only been able to see it in a full-screen version which was very dark and blurry. This DVD edition allowed me, for the first time, to fully appreciate the animation. What do you think?
Disney's Divinity wrote:Of course, I feel there are still some flaws (as with any movie): the characters are better than I remembered, but they do seem as if they don’t get enough screen time for you to get to know them properly. They--or, at least, Taran--are developed pretty well, but the plot’s need for them to go from place to place, and quickly, detracts a little from the goal of you believing them to be a “company of friends.”
You took the words right out of my mouth. The plot calls for the characters to constantly move from one place to another, but the overall film suffers from it slightly.
Disney's Divinity wrote:[...] Still, I enjoyed the characters for the most part. Of course, I always loved the Witches of Morva, but Fflewdur and Eilonwy shined more than I remembered. It really is a shame that Eilonwy is so overlooked by Disney--perhaps because of TBC’s status, but maybe because she’s too prepubescent to market? Anyway, she’s a strong character in the film. She was spunky, but not in an over-done way like with Belle, Jasmine, and sometimes Ariel [...]
Hey, wasn't this a post of mine which you took and put your name on it?! Again, I couldn't agree more. I think Disney's lack of marketing Eilowny has everything to do with the movie's obscure status. I doubt she wouldn't be marketable because of her being "too prepubescent". They don't have any trouble marketing Snow White (14 years old) or Ariel and Aurora (both 16, though Aurora looks much older). And remember: this is Disney. If they can make Miley Cyrus popular, they can do *anything* --if they want!
Disney's Divinity wrote:The only other weakness I remember from the film is the Horned King’s design. I think it’s effective when they don’t zoom in on his face--because the “skeleton” concept comes across more silly than it does scary (such as when he yells into the camera for the Cauldron to bring the dead alive, and then in the last scene where he goes after Taran). Especially when they add the red to his eyes, it doesn’t work very well.
It gets boring, but again, I agree. I've said before that the film as a whole tries too hard to be 'mature', but being scary isn't the same as being mature. I would say Hunchback of Notre Dame is more mature --even despite the gargoyles. Having skeletons come to life and other gory stuff isn't mature. In fact, like you said about the Horned King, it can come across as rather silly. Subtlety is often much more poweful --which I realize is beyond ironic coming from me.
Disney's Divinity wrote:[...] The only real criticism I could think of for the film is that, for some reason, it doesn’t feel “Disney” to me--the muted colors, the austere atmosphere, and so on always comes across as the work of another studio, and not because of the genre or the source material, which in concept would lend itself well to a Disney film, imo. And not even because of the “adult” use of skeletons, blood, etc., which I think could be used and still feel like a Disney film. [...] It particularly reminds me of several Don Bluth films; something about Taran’s animation feels a little too detailed, like in [/I]Thumbelina or The Secret of NIMH.

Interesting, because (surprise!) I had almost the exact same overall feeling about The Black Cauldron. Except, I *do* think the 'un-Disney feel' comes from the film's subject and its treatment (walking skeletons etc.). I seriously wouldn't let a small child watch this film --and I'm not known for being overprotective when it comes to this. Watching TBC, I also had to think of Secret of Nihm. I believe TBC is better suited to teenagers and adults. It defintily doesn't feel like a traditional Disney-film, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.

I wonder if you could tell a bit more about the Freudian interpretation. I'm not sure of I understood what you wanted to say correctly (though I took some psychology in college). I'd be interested to read more about it.
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Post by Escapay »

I think Divinity is referring to how the magic sword can be a phallic symbol. And when Orgach wants the sword, it's basically penis envy in disguise. Later on, when Fflewduur says "You have no real power!" it's a challenge of her "masculinity" since she now has the sword (the sign of power). At least, that's what I think he's talking about. Anything that's long and skinny is phallic to Freud anyway. Except cigars. Because sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. ;) Regarding the cauldron, it might be a jab at women and how their place is in the kitchen? Thus, when the witches trade Gurgi's life for the cauldron, they're going back to their gender roles and in a way, giving "birth" to Gurgi, since giving birth is something only women can do.

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Post by Disney's Divinity »

Yeah, that's kind of what I was thinking.

That whole theory that women have penis envy (because of the power, control, etc. they would have if they were men in a patriarchal society) has always come across somewhat sexist to me. The whole Cauldron aspect of the story first came across that way to me in that context (though it's nothing new; it happens in Mermaid, too). "What can they do with the Cauldron?" "You have no real power!" In other words, women's only real power is giving birth. But I suppose in that way, the film is empowering, because they do bring Gurgi back to life, showing they do have a power of their own (without the sword). The Cauldron is also the downfall of the Horned King (that aspect in particular seems to be a bit of a joke--the early narration says, "Even the gods feared him." But, in the end, the gods--the Witches of Morva, who you would know more about from the books--took care of him, if indirectly). Ah, I'm crazy.

Of course, I don't think that's what they intended when making the film, but these things play out without intention sometimes. I've noticed over the years how, subtly, most 'evil" objects in films, books, and so on are yonic symbols, and the powerful, good objects are phallic symbols. I know with writing my own personal stories, that it often occurs without thought--I've had to consciously go back and re-design some of my ideas because of it (which was an eye-opening experience for me, personally, because I've always thought of myself as a strong feminist supporter). It's definitely been culturally ingrained.

Anyway, thanks so much for the thoughts. I was really worried noone would reply, thinking, "Oh God, there he goes again..." :lol:
That's funny, the exact same thing happened to me when I watched it last month, on the new DVD. ... This DVD edition allowed me, for the first time, to fully appreciate the animation. What do you think?
Well, I haven't been able to buy the new release. Not because I don't like the film, but because I already own the older DVD and I can't really afford to splurge. And I don't think the bonuses gave that much incentive.

But hopefully I'll see the new release in the future. I ended up enjoying the movie even though it was probably missing some of the animation that we were meant to see. I thought its strengths shined through regardless. (Though the new release would probably add to its effect, no doubt).
I doubt she wouldn't be marketable because of her being "too prepubescent". They don't have any trouble marketing Snow White (14 years old) or Ariel and Aurora (both 16, though Aurora looks much older). And remember: this is Disney.
I wondered if it might be her age because the Disney Princess line is incredibly sexualized. Even with Snow White, there's no way you could tell the character is 14 from the merchandise. That's why I always assumed Alice was sorely underused (she's another character I love).

And I suppose you could be right about the "un-Disneyishness" of the movie--possibly because it's not something that could be enjoyed by the whole family. I don't think frightening scenes alone are the cause of that, but the whole mood of the film seems to cater to a certain niche. I mean, of course it's enjoyable on its own, but it seems more strictly confined to a certain genre. As opposed to how most other Disney films are an amalgamation of elements from many different genres

To blackcauldron85, I had no idea about that. I knew he was around the studio at that time, but left before Mermaid. I don't think he ever played a major role, so I wasn't sure if that would have anything to do with it really, but I thought it was strange that aspects of Cauldron reminded me of his works.
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Post by blackcauldron85 »

Andreas Deja's Black Cauldron drawings from his Disney application portfolio!!!

Early "Black Cauldron"
http://andreasdeja.blogspot.com/2011/11 ... ldron.html

These are absolutely amazing!!!
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Post by Super Aurora »

Horn king was awesome but i'm not fond of his Eilonwy. Too "Pippi long stocking-ish"
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Post by qindarka »

Never really understood why this film had such a bad reputation. Though the story is very flawed, it at least manages to be interesting and conveys its messages well.

As a fan of the books, I do not find the movie to be particularly unfaithful. True, the actual events are very different but some of the messages, especially relating to sacrifice and the resistance of temptation, remain intact.

Its the characters which are the real strength of both the books and movie and I find the two most important characters in the movie, Taran and Gurgi, to be portrayed very well. Fflewdurr and Eilonwy are less well done but still recognizable. I do admit that the character of Doli is horribly butchered though.

I have noticed an annoying tendency for many Prydain fans to denigrate the movies and endlessly praise the books but some of the movies' faults can be traced back to their source materials. For example, the setting in the books does feel really underdeveloped and this is evident in the movie as well.

It is a little saddening to see this movie held up as an example of how bad Disney were in the 70s and 80s. I do find that the "Disney Dark Age" is largely a myth and that there were quite a few quality movies released in this period, including this one, that are largely overlooked and underrated.
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Post by DisneyJedi »

Interesting concept art. Of course, Taran looks a little awkward in a few of them.
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Post by Disney Duster »

Disney's Divinity wrote:She was spunky, but not in an over-done way like with Belle, Jasmine, and sometimes Ariel (the only scene I’m referring to is the “I’m not a child!” scene--she doesn’t seem that bad anywhere else to me). I don’t think they’ve had a “spunky” character that’s balanced that well again until Tiana (who has the fieriness of the early ‘90s heroines combined with the maturity of the later ‘90s’ Pocahontas, Mulan, and Megara).
You really think that? Okay if you do, but I disagree. I found Tiana so boring and not much of a force, outshined by her more lively prince and side characters. I cared much more for Naveen than her. Except when she's sad about her restaraunt. And the scene with seeing her dad in the vision with Facilier. But that was the film's doing more than personally her chartacter I think. I don't think the othe heroine's spunkiness is overdone, but I believe they are overdone in some ways, perhaps spunkiness is just not the word I'd use. And as they say, better overdone than underdone.
Disney's Divinity wrote:The only other weakness I remember from the film is the Horned King’s design. I think it’s effective when they don’t zoom in on his face--because the “skeleton” concept comes across more silly than it does scary (such as when he yells into the camera for the Cauldron to bring the dead alive, and then in the last scene where he goes after Taran). Especially when they add the red to his eyes, it doesn’t work very well.
I think his design's GREAT! And That the red eyes are great! And his voice acting, like you do. But maybe he could have been done more subtley, perhaps more in between a human and a skeleton. In fact, what exactly and who exactly he is isn't explained well, is it? Is it in the books?
Disney's Divinity wrote:Although, personally, some of it was ruined because that really high “wooh” sound (the one that plays when it zooms up on the Horned King’s castle after Taran leaves Gurgi on the mountain to go rescue Henwen) forever reminds me of Mars Attacks! now.
I love that sound in the film!! Shame it's ruined for you!
Disney's Divinity wrote:The only real criticism I could think of for the film is that, for some reason, it doesn’t feel “Disney” to me--the muted colors, the austere atmosphere, and so on always comes across as the work of another studio, and not because of the genre or the source material, which in concept would lend itself well to a Disney film, imo. And not even because of the “adult” use of skeletons, blood, etc., which I think could be used and still feel like a Disney film. (I don’t really believe in an overarching Disney essence, but there’s something about this movie that doesn’t sit well with most of their other films). It particularly reminds me of several Don Bluth films.
Well I still think it's Disney essency, perhaps more because of its subject material (fantasy, animals, fantasy, fantasy). But I do get what you mean as I'm sure everyone would. But surely you don't mean this is your only "real criticism" of the film? The lack of characterization, getting to know them, and moving from place to place are not much more critical to you?
Disney's Divinity wrote:Isomething about Taran’s animation feels a little too detailed, like in [/I]Thumbelina[/I] or The Secret of NIMH.
Can you explain? And show pictures?
Disney's Divinity wrote:Of course, I don't think that's what they intended when making the film, but these things play out without intention sometimes. I've noticed over the years how, subtly, most 'evil" objects in films, books, and so on are yonic symbols, and the powerful, good objects are phallic symbols. I know with writing my own personal stories, that it often occurs without thought--I've had to consciously go back and re-design some of my ideas because of it (which was an eye-opening experience for me, personally, because I've always thought of myself as a strong feminist supporter). It's definitely been culturally ingrained.
Yea but...maybe what you need to do is say "You know what, I can decide what represents femininty and what doesn't!" If you think about it, a woman accepting something such as a cauldron or container as a yonic symbol in itself could be a woman accepting what other people decided. You decide, you intend what you intend.
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Post by Little Red Henski »

Will Disney ever release a directors cut of the Black Cauldron?
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Post by PatrickvD »

Little Red Henski wrote:Will Disney ever release a directors cut of the Black Cauldron?
No.
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Post by Flanger-Hanger »

Has this been pointed out elsewhere? I think at 1:05-1:07 we see a quick glimpse of some of the cut footage:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceYa-ltT6xw

And here's a mock up of some material, with the extra music from the soundtrack, the clip above and some cels:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8zQHO40Cys
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Post by JustOneBite87 »

Little Red Henski wrote:Will Disney ever release a directors cut of the Black Cauldron?
Not unless someone who actually likes Disney animated films starts running the show at the studio.
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Post by Sotiris »

Flanger-Hanger wrote:And here's a mock up of some material, with the extra music from the soundtrack, the clip above and some cels
Nice. Thanks!
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Post by DisneyJedi »

Little Red Henski wrote:Will Disney ever release a directors cut of the Black Cauldron?
I wish they would. :(
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Post by Kraken Guard »

DisneyJedi wrote:
Little Red Henski wrote:Will Disney ever release a directors cut of the Black Cauldron?
I wish they would. :(
As would I. I love the movie and think it was great! :(
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