Where does the survival instinct come from?

[TheSequelOfDisney]

I just love how my actual answer to the original question was just glossed over in order to have this idiotic argument...

[Dr Frankenollie]

I just love how my actual answer to the original question was just glossed over in order to have this idiotic argument...

While your answer explained what caused the survival instinct biologically, what I was asking is why our genes would have evolved to make our bodies function that way. What is it necessary for, and where did the genes' determination to survive come from?

Also - blame Duster for the religious debate this has turned into. And how is this idiotic in the slightest? We're talking about things philosophically. You didn't understand my question. You don't have to get involved if you don't like the debate.

[yamiiguy]

I suppose it's down to mental states and external stimulus. You feel hot - you try to cool down. You feel hungry or weak - you try to find food. To describe it simply - animals want to be "happy". The ones that can succeed best at being "happy" survive and pass down their genes. It certainly isn't coincidental that activities that stimulate the pleasure centres in the brain are ones that help us survive - eating good food, having sex.

I thought this would be pretty simply to answer but it turned out to be rather difficult

[Dr Frankenollie]

I suppose it's down to mental states and external stimulus. You feel hot - you try to cool down. You feel hungry or weak - you try to find food. To describe it simply - animals want to be "happy". The ones that can succeed best at being "happy" survive and pass down their genes. It certainly isn't coincidental that activities that stimulate the pleasure centres in the brain are ones that help us survive - eating good food, having sex.

That's a logical, possible explanation. However, if striving to survive indirectly comes from a wish to be happy, which comes from us trying to avoid pain...where does pain come from? Why have our bodies evolved to feel pain? Once again, due to the survival instinct.

I think the examples you mentioned, like being hungry or weak and therefore wanting food, are due to the genes trying to survive. In a metaphorical sense, they 'program' us to feel pain whenever we have had a lack of food in order to get us to eat food, so our survival is more likely.

[yamiiguy]

It's an interesting conundrum. Pain would come from the detection of certain stimuli at free nerve endings. These stimuli - strong forces, temperature etc. - would cause tissue damage and/or cell death, leading to a 'unhappy' (not very scientific, I know) organism. Perhaps sexual selection comes into it too - a half-dead, scarred animal is unlikely to attract mates which would copulate with him/her and stimulate the pleasure centre.

[Disney Duster]

I'm pretty sure new matter is still made. A child cell doesn't merely take the mother cells's cells for its own, new cells are made for the child.

Actually Duster, I was apologising for the way I wrote things (e.g. in an angry, insulting way) rather than what I wrote. I still think you've contradicted yourself. Let me ask you: if you know that something being positive does not mean it's true, then why do you found your belief on a 'positive choice'? Don't blither on about how it makes you feel good, I want to know why you ignore common sense and embrace deluded happiness if you know that the most positive thing is not always the most realistic thing.

It's that if no one knows everything or what is the truth, why not choose to believe the more positive possible truth until proven otherwise?

Here's the two theories as I see them:

1. There is an inter-dimensional lobster that exists outside our universe, and in order to shape worlds, it has evolved in order to 'sing', using the resultant waves to form universes. It is the end product of other, god-like inter-dimensional beings.

2. There is a being that always existed, is part of nature and outside nature, has infite power, immortality, the ability to read minds and knows everything that has happened, is happening and will happen.

On a scale of probability, the lobster theory just makes more sense to me. And seeing as it's a load of nonsense that I made up, it doesn't make the God theory appear very credible at all.

You're theory of the lobster sounds more logical to you because you think of logic from what you see, all the physical, and your theories are essentially "physical begets physical" which is a never-ending cycle. God is something non-physical which was and is beyond such (physical) existence, thus able to create existence as well as is also beyond the kinds of rules you apply to him from the physical world that you form your theories on in the first place. That's why God is more likely.

To clarify, by 'clapping', I did not intend to insult you.

Okay, thank you.

I don't think you're necessarily a bad person, but perhaps a misled, delusional good person. If you can't understand why, it's the same reason you think you need to save me: we both consider each other's beliefs 'wrong' in some sense.

But you used the words "bad person". So I am still wondering why you used that, if there's anything more you want to say. I admit I think some things you think are truly bad, though I don't think you're a bad person, so there's my admittence, I'm wondering if you have more for me.

As for the last thing you said in this thread...it sounds like what you're talking about is quite a conundrum (lol I wrote that before yamiiguy said the same thing, but posted it after he said it!). It's sounds like something amazing and kind of miraculous, don't you think? Since it very well could be, why would you want to not to think it is just that, a miracle, created by a higher power, instead of it just being meaningless pieces going on with no amazing, powerful intent behind it? Or are you willing to believe it is the former, you just asked us if we had any help in answering?

And as for belief in God, no the meaning he gives me is not that of servitude.

If you want to get technical, especially from the old testament, God basically is implying you be in his servitude. Other wise why else would he present laws and statement he expect you to abide by? When you have a ruler and a subject, the subject serves the ruler. it's how it works. Doesn't matter whether he's "good and kind" or "evil".

Sure, I do serve God, and I do like that, but I was saying that's not why I get meaning from him. The main reason is the one I explained, much more than servitude.

And I am sick of all that stuff about other galaxies and the universe being so big making people say they are insignificant, when it means the opposite.

You're "sick" or it because you don't want to accept it and that it ruins your perception of how you see the world. It's just like how creationist don't want to accept to fact that evolution and existence of dinosaurs to be true because it debunk their "beliefs" or perception of how they thought to be our origins and such.

No I have a different view of the world. You're telling me to accept your negative view and abandon my negative view.

Those planets and sun things are cool. No proof of life yet, thinking about such topics as we are discussing now.

As you can see, there's a lot of stuff I skipped. Frankenollie, yamiiguy, Super Aurora, pretty much the rest of the stuff I feel was either already covered by what I wrote above, or you're just not getting me and I either feel you're doing it on purpose by being to negative and refusing to really try to see what I'm talking about, positively, or I don't know how to explain it to you, but I can probably sum it up as, if you do view human beings as very high, signifigant creatures, the only ones in this vast Earth who we know even think about this stuff, than things meaning anything to us is enough meaning. However, if you're going to be negative and choose not to view it like that, I can't help you.

Oh, I did forget one thing though. God also helps give me meaning in also thinking if I don't get the entire menaing of everything, I believe I'll find out in the afterlife. And if I go to Hell and don't find out, I don't deserve to know anyway, and if I go to Heaven and I still don't know, I'll be so happy I won't care, which would once again say that happiness and what had meaning to us as joy or feeling is all the meaning there is and needs to be. And maybe some of you just don't want to accept and appreciate that. You want more. To have an effect on the sun or whatever as Super Aurora said...

Oh and Super Aurora by the word random that you were like "WAT" at or whatever you said, I mean without intent, not made with desire or design to be some amazing whole, from something with desire and intent, such as God.

[yamiiguy]

New cells are made for the child and new cells are being made in your body as we speak but new cells still use preexisting matter. Not that it really matters...

I'd just like to make it clear that I respect your beliefs and think that having faith can have positive effects. I just think you're wrong It is just my belief that the universe originated from nothing therefore there is absolutely no objective meaning to anything. Everything exists because it does. You can give your life a purpose but you cannot, in the grand scheme of things, give it meaning. Your purpose could be to serve your god, to become a lawyer or to simply lead a happy, carefree life observing the beauty that just so happens to exist. However, they don't have meaning. The universe won't cease to exist if you didn't do that (and even if it did, that wouldn't matter as the universe itself has no meaning!).

[Disney Duster]

I can kind of see what you mean if you mean something like...life doesn't have any meaning except to just live and enjoy it and have fun, in which of course I would say that is meaning, heh.

But, from all you've said it sounds like you mean a much more depressing thing and so naturally I would rather you think a happier thing and would like to get you to.

Right now I just wanna ask...why? Why do you want to believe that? Why do you think that's right? And, yea, after all I've said, too...and if you don't want to answer these questions, that's fine. I wrote a bigger response to you in the Religion thread so maybe you'd like to skimp on your response to me here and just talk about it there, if you even want to. Of course, I'm hoping what I wrote there will help you believe what I'm talking about so we may not even need to go over it here anyway.

Well, until whatever you say next, I know it takes energy and matter from previous matter like the mother's cells, but I suppose what I mean is...okay, even when something grows, I think that's amazing, because in order for something to grow larger, new matter must come into existence on the previous matter to be larger. You get me now? And...isn't that...miraculous? : )

[yamiiguy]

Of course you should go and live a happy life. No matter how meaningless it is, you are alive. This discussion is purely philosophical, you should always view the world with naive realism as otherwise you'd be pointlessly wasting your already meaningless life

Life may be meaningless but taking it away is just as meaningless. Or even more meaningless. Sort of how infinity + 1 still equals infinity but it's a larger infinity than you began with. If you get what I mean.

[Disney Duster]

But using naive realism means to ignore other parts of your mind. A mind seperate from the physical senses exists, idealism exists, and ideas and feelings and thoughts of beyond/much more than what we percieve as material exists. To ignore that is actually making life more meaningless; it is not using it to its fullest.

[Dr Frankenollie]

It's that if no one knows everything or what is the truth, why not choose to believe the more positive possible truth until proven otherwise?

Because although we don't have proof, we still have probability; looking at the facts, the 'positive possible truth' of God existing is less probable than the 'negative possible truth' of God not existing.

You're theory of the lobster sounds more logical to you because you think of logic from what you see, all the physical, and your theories are essentially "physical begets physical" which is a never-ending cycle. God is something non-physical which was and is beyond such (physical) existence, thus able to create existence as well as is also beyond the kinds of rules you apply to him from the physical world that you form your theories on in the first place. That's why God is more likely.

But what evidence can we use to consider the probability of God's existence if not physical? All your beliefs lie in feelings of spirituality - things that are highly questionable and extremely unscientific. Moreover, I could easily say that the lobster is more likely because your views on the singing lobster concept being 'silly' and 'funny' are because of what you're used to in this universe, and that your belief that lobsters can't sing is because of physical stimulus you have experienced.

But you used the words "bad person". So I am still wondering why you used that, if there's anything more you want to say. I admit I think some things you think are truly bad, though I don't think you're a bad person, so there's my admittence, I'm wondering if you have more for me.

I'm not sure if I did actually call you a 'bad person'; I think I just said that you were a deluded good person.

It's sounds like something amazing and kind of miraculous, don't you think? Since it very well could be, why would you want to not to think it is just that, a miracle, created by a higher power, instead of it just being meaningless pieces going on with no amazing, powerful intent behind it?

Out of curiousity Duster, could you tell us more about what brought you to your conclusion that God must exist? You said that you thought long and hard about it and briefly became depressed.

[CJ]

Time to take a step back, guys. Please keep the religion debate in the religion thread that is open. Also please stop with the personal attacks, you all know by now what is and what isn't a personal attack. This will be the only warning for this thread. The next time I need to get involved, this thread will be locked.