Is Belle a little TOO perfect?

[Disney's Divinity]

I consider Pocahontas, Mulan and Tiana all equally "feminist." Tiana has the advantage of being one of the few Disney heroines that is practical rather than dreamy/ditzy and proactive rather than passive. Plus, she actually works and supports herself instead of living off a parent and/or prince.

All the characters, from Naveen to Facilier to Mama Odie to Charlotte to even Louis out-shined her. For the first time the prince was more likeable and memorable than the princess. That says something.

Not the first: Aurora, Jasmine, and (to some extent) Snow White and Belle are all fairly outshined by their fellow casts. In Snow White's case, her only saving grace is that she's not as bland as the prince--but that's not really saying much, honestly.

[Lazario]

I agree with jazzflower92. Tiana is incredibly popular. I think she's the most feminist of all.

Duster, I disagree with you. How is Tiana not a very good/memorable/likeable character or Disney princess?!?! Number one, she's the only black one, which is pretty memorable. She had a good and realistic dream as well.

Am I on Saved by the Bell right now or what?

[Disney Duster]

The reason I find Tiana more feminist than Mulan is because she makes a career, and owns something, and pretty much all on her own.

Mulan showed that she could do what a man could do, but Tiana did that and more. Sure, Mulan being a big, huge, giant hero is really awesome, but I don't know if the greatness of her heroic acts actually counts as being more feminist. And did she even want to do any of that? I don't remember enough of the movie to tell if that was even her goal. It was all for her dad. At least Tiana's dream was not just her dad's but also her own.

All the characters, from Naveen to Facilier to Mama Odie to Charlotte to even Louis out-shined her. For the first time the prince was more likeable and memorable than the princess. That says something.

Not the first: Aurora, Jasmine, and (to some extent) Snow White and Belle are all fairly outshined by their fellow casts. In Snow White's case, her only saving grace is that she's not as bland as the prince--but that's not really saying much, honestly.[/quote]
I was thinking of Aurora, but I think that she actually did manage to be more appealing than at least her princem despite having less dialogue and lines. I think Jasmine is about equal to the rest of the cast in her film, she doesn't seem like a bland nothing compared to them even if some are more fun or liked better than her. And I completely disagree on Belle and Snow White. People usually are more fond of Belle than the Beast, and Snow White is memorable and adorable, and she makes the movie for me when I feel for her in the end of it. Even if people find Snow White annoying, she is at least still memorable for all of that, you see?

[Disney's Divinity]

I think Jasmine is about equal to the rest of the cast in her film, she doesn't seem like a bland nothing compared to them even if some are more fun or liked better than her.

I didn't say she was a bland nothing. But she is outshined by every other character in the film.

Even if people find Snow White annoying, she is at least still memorable for all of that, you see?

She's still not as memorable as the other characters in the film.

[FlyingPiggy]

The reason I find Tiana more feminist than Mulan is because she makes a career, and owns something, and pretty much all on her own.

Mulan showed that she could do what a man could do, but Tiana did that and more. Sure, Mulan being a big, huge, giant hero is really awesome, but I don't know if the greatness of her heroic acts actually counts as being more feminist. And did she even want to do any of that? I don't remember enough of the movie to tell if that was even her goal. It was all for her dad. At least Tiana's dream was not just her dad's but also her own.

Mulan went up against a patriarchal system at the risk of her life. Was it her goal to challenge the system? No, not exactly, it was personal. She was doing it not only for her father, but to prove her own worth to herself.
Shang dismisses her from training during I'll Make A Man Out Of You and she stays.

Also, she outright says it when she's left in the mountains.
"Maybe I didn't go for my father. Maybe what I really wanted was to prove that I could do things right... So that when I looked in the mirror I'd see someone worthwhile."

Disney's Divinity, do you really think Jasmine's out shined by Iago and her father?

[Super Aurora]

Disney's Divinity, do you really think Jasmine's out shined by Iago and her father?

Divinity hates Jasmine with a passion if you must know. That's why he says crap like that.

[Disney's Divinity]

Yes, Iago outshines Jasmine. The Sultan, maybe not. But she still is one of the less vibrant characters in the film.

[Lazario]

I agree. Though the only thing about her that annoyed me was "A Whole New World." Although, there I'm just thinking about what I'd do in her situation. It's a very romantic idea and I'd probably be wooed at the start of the ride. But if a guy started singing to me in that voice, I'd tell him to shut up, that he can't sing, and if he ever sings to me again- I'll kick him in the mouth.

[Dr Frankenollie]

I agree. Though the only thing about her that annoyed me was "A Whole New World." Although, there I'm just thinking about what I'd do in her situation. It's a very romantic idea and I'd probably be wooed at the start of the ride. But if a guy started singing to me in that voice, I'd tell him to shut up, that he can't sing, and if he ever sings to me again- I'll kick him in the mouth.

I am often baffled by the fact that you like Disney. The Whole New World sequence is one of the best scenes with Jasmine; then again, I think Aladdin and Jasmine have more chemistry and play off each other more in dialogue scenes rather than song scenes, which seems rather unusual for a Disney musical.

[Lazario]

I am often baffled by the fact that you like Disney.

Well, that's the joke- I extend my definition of what Disney is further back than the 90's.



I know I'm not the only one, but let's just say I'm more old school than most.

The Whole New World sequence is one of the best scenes with Jasmine; then again, I think Aladdin and Jasmine have more chemistry and play off each other more in dialogue scenes rather than song scenes, which seems rather unusual for a Disney musical.

You know, when I think hard about trying to find a genuine Disney romantic moment in animation- I have trouble. My favorite is Bambi's "I Bring You a Song," but I don't find that scene very romantic. "Bella Notte" would seem obvious but I never bought it as being romantic. I'd have to be insane to say the resolution of Bongo just because I love Fun and Fancy Free more than most, which is more cute than anything. I find the idea of watching someone sleep ish-romantic but the princess wake-up kisses more about the other people watching them. Not very romantic. What's left? Fantasia's mating dance? (YUCK!) "Kiss the Girl"? (See my Too Many Spectators policy.) Johnny Fedora and Alice Bluebonnet? Hmmm... Got to admit that one was pretty nice. Even though it likely involves a bit of S&M (body piercing).

[Disney Duster]

I think Jasmine is about equal to the rest of the cast in her film, she doesn't seem like a bland nothing compared to them even if some are more fun or liked better than her.

I didn't say she was a bland nothing. But she is outshined by every other character in the film.

Even if people find Snow White annoying, she is at least still memorable for all of that, you see?

She's still not as memorable as the other characters in the film.

I'd say Jasmine is about on par with the rest. And Snow White was not outshined by the dwarfs, I think she ranges from on par with to more adored than them, only the Queen truly always outshines her, and even them I'm not certain.

Maybe I should have said Tiana is the princess I find was most outshined by the rest of her cast.

Mulan went up against a patriarchal system at the risk of her life. Was it her goal to challenge the system? No, not exactly, it was personal. She was doing it not only for her father, but to prove her own worth to herself.
Shang dismisses her from training during I'll Make A Man Out Of You and she stays.

Also, she outright says it when she's left in the mountains.
"Maybe I didn't go for my father. Maybe what I really wanted was to prove that I could do things right... So that when I looked in the mirror I'd see someone worthwhile."

Oh, well then it was for herself. It still wasn't a career, though, an entire life doing exactly what she wanted and liked to do, like Tiana.

You know, when I think hard about trying to find a genuine Disney romantic moment in animation- I have trouble. My favorite is Bambi's "I Bring You a Song," but I don't find that scene very romantic.[

OMG we agree, that's my favorite Disney romantic scene/love song too! Well, other than "So This is Love". It's a hard decision, but part of it is at least Cinderella and the Prince are humans talking about entering a magic world, but "I Bring You A Song" just makes me feel, like, woah.

I find the idea of watching someone sleep ish-romantic but the princess wake-up kisses more about the other people watching them. Not very romantic.

Is that why you like Twilight? And why is watching someone sleep romantic but not kissing them to save their life? What is a romantic moment to you?

[Lazario]

I find the idea of watching someone sleep ish-romantic but the princess wake-up kisses more about the other people watching them. Not very romantic.

Is that why you like Twilight? And why is watching someone sleep romantic but not kissing them to save their life?

I've never seen the Twilight movies. I stopped watching new teen movies and shows back with Jawbreaker and Sabrina the Teenage Witch. I haven't even seen Jennifer's Body and it's a horror film.

What is a romantic moment to you?

Dunno, I'll let you know when I find one. (I suppose, as mentioned in my previous post, that Johnny & Alice count if the setting of a horse-drawn carriage walk on a sunny day comes alive through Disney DVD's pretty cruddy remastering of the movie.)

[Dr Frankenollie]

Well, that's the joke- I extend my definition of what Disney is further back than the 90's.

Yeah, but the Disney of the 30's, 40's and 50's still had plenty of cheesy, bland romances.

You know, when I think hard about trying to find a genuine Disney romantic moment in animation- I have trouble. My favorite is Bambi's "I Bring You a Song," but I don't find that scene very romantic. "Bella Notte" would seem obvious but I never bought it as being romantic. I'd have to be insane to say the resolution of Bongo just because I love Fun and Fancy Free more than most, which is more cute than anything. I find the idea of watching someone sleep ish-romantic but the princess wake-up kisses more about the other people watching them. Not very romantic. What's left? Fantasia's mating dance? (YUCK!) "Kiss the Girl"? (See my Too Many Spectators policy.) Johnny Fedora and Alice Bluebonnet? Hmmm... Got to admit that one was pretty nice. Even though it likely involves a bit of S&M (body piercing).

What about one of the flying scenes with Bernard and Bianca in The Rescuers? I've always felt that they're genuine and sweet moments; the romance between Bernard and Bianca isn't as contrived as other Disney romances, it's not entirely foisted upon us, and they do have believable development in their relationship.

While I love "Bella Notte", I think it's sometimes overrated amongst Disney fans; the best parts of Lady and the Tramp aren't the romantic moments, but the humorous moments, and the early scenes with Lady as a puppy. Nonetheless,"Bella Notte" sounds utterly beautiful in the opening sequence.

Have you seen Up? That film's prologue has a wonderful and realistic romance, even though the dogs that appear later in the film are annoying.

[The_Iceflash]

I would rather have "too perfect" over "ultra-realistic". I feel like realism sucks the soul out of characters.

[Lazario]

Well, that's the joke- I extend my definition of what Disney is further back than the 90's.

Yeah, but the Disney of the 30's, 40's and 50's still had plenty of cheesy, bland romances.

Actually, I was really criticizing the singing. Not the scene. It's a cliche of the early 90's movies (all genres) and TV to have that schmaltzy Celine Dion / Michael Bolton-esque soft-ballad and the only thing that separates "A Whole New World" from the rest of that crap subgenre is the orchestra. (P.S.: I'm also not a big fan of orchestral scores in the first place.)

What about one of the flying scenes with Bernard and Bianca in The Rescuers? I've always felt that they're genuine and sweet moments; the romance between Bernard and Bianca isn't as contrived as other Disney romances, it's not entirely foisted upon us, and they do have believable development in their relationship.

I look to the sequel to tell us how well these moments really bonded the two as a couple... I'm assuming it was years before that storyline began.

While I love "Bella Notte", I think it's sometimes overrated amongst Disney fans; the best parts of Lady and the Tramp aren't the romantic moments, but the humorous moments, and the early scenes with Lady as a puppy. Nonetheless,"Bella Notte" sounds utterly beautiful in the opening sequence.

4 words: The Siamese Cat Song. Rest of the movie is expendable.

Have you seen Up? That film's prologue has a wonderful and realistic romance, even though the dogs that appear later in the film are annoying.

No. Sadly, I had the chance on Netflix: Watch Instant and got lazy. I missed that, Enchanted, AND Wall-E. Of course, I used this as a learning experience and made sure not to miss Tangled and Princess and the Frog. They're still there if I'm not mistaken - along with Toy Story 3 (which I'm skipping because I haven't seen 2 yet) - and the former 3 have yet to reappear.

I would rather have "too perfect" over "ultra-realistic". I feel like realism sucks the soul out of characters.

You think realistic people have no souls? Hmmm...; something to think about.

[Disney Duster]

I've never seen the Twilight movies. I stopped watching new teen movies and shows back with Jawbreaker and Sabrina the Teenage Witch. I haven't even seen Jennifer's Body and it's a horror film.

Well I'm sure watching the horror teen films today wouldn't bother you, but I understand money's tight for us all these days. But in Twilight the vampire Edward who later becomes not just her boyfriend but her husband by the last book, would use his vampire ways to slip in her room and watch her sleep at night in the first book. Or maybe you know that from the books?

What is a romantic moment to you?

Dunno, I'll let you know when I find one. (I suppose, as mentioned in my previous post, that Johnny & Alice count if the setting of a horse-drawn carriage walk on a sunny day comes alive through Disney DVD's pretty cruddy remastering of the movie.)

I really meant what do you find to be a romantic moment in anything, Disney films, non-Disney films, or real life?

While I love "Bella Notte", I think it's sometimes overrated amongst Disney fans; the best parts of Lady and the Tramp aren't the romantic moments, but the humorous moments, and the early scenes with Lady as a puppy.

I think Bella Notte is great but not the song, just the two puppies and how they go on a date and fall for each other, but yea, other than that it was Lady as a puppy and Tramp before he met Lady that I always liked best in the movie.