Another Religion Thread

[Disney Duster]

disneyboy, that is a nice song, sums up some thoughts on suffering here and what it means and it's the kind of thing that can get me emotional.

Dr Frankenollie, watched the video (ha, I thought I knew who it would be) and my reply is the same. This isn't Heaven. Heaven's for later. Life can suck really super miserably bad, but heck, I like life. Even I think some things are too terrible to stand, that they just should never ever happen...and yet they happen and we stand them. The idea that in the very end everyone and everything, all the pain, will be healed and it'll all be okay...I don't care if you think it sounds impossible or unlikely, I and others can believe it.

Goliath, I listened to all those songs for a while. I couldn't really listen to them to the very ends because I am quite busy these days and adding up all the music to listen to would really take a long time! But I do get how "shine your light" feels powerful, like, you want something to help you believe, please shine that light, and how the lyrics you italicized about what is going on the world, well, they probably resonate because you feel you can relate, like "really Dylan, is that stuff really happening?" I also like "Gotta Serve Somebody" because it says no matter how powerful we get (even those successful big business jerks!) they can't control everything or be as powerful as the being that made everything, and everything you do could be said to follow good or bad (even though some people could say all they do for themselves is good, and if serial killers do that then, oh jeeze that's another debate!).

Hey, you know, I never told anyone this, but in a way for a while I felt God abandoned me. I felt my life was really bad and there was, I dunno, nothing. But I still decided to believe in God, and I found I really could, and now I do feel like he's there cause I try, and it may be rather faint, but, it's what I gotta, like hope to hold onto, despite everything. But I believe very, very strongly, and am so happy to find I can.

I am not entirely sure just exactly what you *know* about things that happened in the past that, I'm guessing, the only evidence of is writings and theories...but The Bible records some historical events, it tells of how people learned of God, they say all the writings were divinely inspired by God, and it was a huge movement that went with a people being freed and finding a holy land and expanding, et cetera, which is all things the likes of Greek mythology doesn't have. They even refer to it as myths. There's a difference between saying "Persephone being taken to the Underworld is responsible for the seasons" and "God spoke to Noah, and created a Flood". One is an explanation for things, the other is an event, and a real, out of the ordinary flood like that is evidenced to have occured in history. One is an explanation for things that science later explained, the other is a religious event. I'm sure science could explain *the process* of the flood, though, so a different example would be when Abraham almost sacrificed Isaac or when Moses was told of God himself. And some stories are not meant to be taken literally, probably. So I think you get what I mean. And as for the cult thing, aside from all else I said, Christianity doesn't make people drink Kool-ade if you know what I mean. They don't hurt people in the way cults do (I know also think religion hurts people but that *is* a different way, and it is only *how* *people* use religion) and, hey, who knows all the reasons why there's difference between religion and cults, one preaches something that sounds better or more real to others? It doesn't matter. Follow what you believe or want to believe.

I was thinking, I know why you wouldn't like the Old Testament God, but what about the God Jesus spoke of in the New Testament? I know it's supposed to be the same God, but one wonders if the men who wrote the Old Testament got some things wrong while Jesus, of course, would explain things better. lol So then maybe you could believe in that more loving Christian God.

[Dr Frankenollie]

Dr Frankenollie, watched the video (ha, I thought I knew who it would be) and my reply is the same. This isn't Heaven. Heaven's for later. Life can suck really super miserably bad, but heck, I like life. Even I think some things are too terrible to stand, that they just should never ever happen...and yet they happen and we stand them. The idea that in the very end everyone and everything, all the pain, will be healed and it'll all be okay...I don't care if you think it sounds impossible or unlikely, I and others can believe it.

But why do we have to wait for the pain to end? Why does 'God' have to put us through suffering mortally and then supposedly save us? Why doesn't he just transport us to Heaven? And why for that matter does he allow evil people to exist? Why doesn't he just create good souls so he doesn't have to poorly test us? And finally, why does he create us at all? What does he gain from it? Entertainment?

And if what you say is true, then let me repeat something The Amazing Atheist said: how can you stomach him? Don't you care that some invisible being who has never done anything to you demands that you worship him or threatens to let you burn? Don't you care that you and countless others have to be figuratively dragged through shit thanks to the nonsensical 'tests' of 'God' and still have to worship him to get a pass into Heaven?

If there is a God, do you think Anne Frank will be fine and dandy when she ends up in Heaven and God said that she and most of her family and friends had to suffer starvation, torture, humiliation and eventually horrific, meaningless deaths just so he could decide whether to burn them alive or not? I don't know about you Duster, but if there is a God, then he must be a sadistic, exceedingly destructive monster. I would rather go to Hell then join Mother Teresa and get on my knees and worship a self-obsessed violent Holy Trinity.

I have already made it quite clear that life cannot, under any circumstances, be a test; I've used analogies and explained basic scientific principles, which you have irritatingly chosen to ignore. But this fact still stands: for a test to be fair, it has to be the same for everyone.

Now I'm obviously not suggesting that we all have to be identical to one another as that would be boring, but saying that life *cannot* be a test. Please Duster, could you at least agree with that? You don't have to say God doesn't exist or is evil or anything like that, just agree that a test has to be the same to be fair.

Duster, do you know what Doctor Who is? The main character, as the following video shows, is a pseudo-religious, time-travelling 'saviour' figure who (unlike the Christian God) occasionally shows himself to humanity and saves them multiple times. I'm curious to find out what you think of it.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/IUld2qcyNpw" frameborder="0"></iframe>

[Goliath]

Duster, great that you listened to those songs. I hope you'll listen them to the end (as well as the other songs on the album) when you ever find the time.

[...] but The Bible records some historical events, it tells of how people learned of God, they say all the writings were divinely inspired by God, and it was a huge movement that went with a people being freed and finding a holy land and expanding, et cetera, which is all things the likes of Greek mythology doesn't have. They even refer to it as myths. There's a difference between saying "Persephone being taken to the Underworld is responsible for the seasons" and "God spoke to Noah, and created a Flood". One is an explanation for things, the other is an event, and a real, out of the ordinary flood like that is evidenced to have occured in history. [...]

Yeah, but I meant that things like the story of Noah is not original to the Bible. A much older version of the story can be found in Greek mythology (the myth of Deucalion) and even earlier in the Sumerian mythical epos of Gilgamesj. And things like Jonah being stuck in a whale and people who live to be 900 years old and a woman being created from a rib, and things like the seven plagues of Egypt... they all have the same structure as the Greek myths. I don't see any difference. Greek myths were invented because people didn't know the origins of the earth. That's why there are gods like Gaia (mother Earth) who had kids like Sky, Mountains, Land and who copulated to create new gods, all personifications of elementary natural phenomena. But what's the difference with Genesis? That's about a powerful being created the world, the animals and man in 6 days.

And as for the cult thing, aside from all else I said, Christianity doesn't make people drink Kool-ade if you know what I mean. They don't hurt people in the way cults do (I know also think religion hurts people but that *is* a different way, and it is only *how* *people* use religion) and, hey, who knows all the reasons why there's difference between religion and cults, one preaches something that sounds better or more real to others?

But Christianity *was* seen as a cult, because it was a very small sectarian group among the Jews and the Romans, who had their own gods. And besides Jesus of Nazareth, there were many more self-proclaimed prophets who all said they had the one true story about God. Because the story of Jesus was more resonating in the long run, does that mean he was right? Does popularity equal being right? And yeah, you've guessed it: I think religion *is* the kool-aid. But something has changed in my way of thinking. Partly due to my own circumstances and partly, silly as it may sound, due to my studying of how a personality like Dylan became a Christian. Before, I couldn't understand why people would choose to become religious (I still call it 'choosing'), but now, I understand why. I still don't agree with it, but I can see how it can offer people comfort and support when they need it the most.

(The question remains why God didn't save those people from suffering.)

I was thinking, I know why you wouldn't like the Old Testament God, but what about the God Jesus spoke of in the New Testament? I know it's supposed to be the same God, but one wonders if the men who wrote the Old Testament got some things wrong while Jesus, of course, would explain things better. lol So then maybe you could believe in that more loving Christian God.

I think Jesus of Nazareth, as described in the gospels, is an extraordinary and positive role-model. That's why I can't believe how his teachings, Christianity, has gotten hijacked by an ultra-right, ultra-conservative political group (Republicans/Tea Party) who stand for bigotry, exclusion, racism, homophobia and especially trampling the poor, the sick and the needy to give more to the rich. I don't understand why nobody questions this. Jesus, excuse me for saying it, was the world's first socialist. He told the rich men to donate their money to the poor. He told the rich they could not enter heaven if they didn't do away with their fortune. He preached about taking care of the sick and the needy. He preached about turning the other cheek. Jesus was a pinko hippie. Send him down today and the Tea Party will crucify him.

The Old Testament is different because the books that make up the OT were written by very different people in very different times.

[Disney Duster]

Dr Frankenollie, the answers can be understood. God made people that have free will, the power to choose to be bad or good. God created them, knowing what they would do, but he still gave them their own power to do it. Through pain and suffering, people must still choose to be good and believe and worship God. If God made people that were already good, in Heaven, it wouldn't be nearly as complex and powerful and amazing as new beings who choose to be good or evil, even when faced with pain and suffering that is not heavenly. God made people, Earth, life, and good and bad, because in all it is good, it is amazing.

And I don't need to know the answers to all your questions. You're asking questions that are probably actually supposed to be a mystery, known only to God. And you don't know everything about life yourself, you don't know all the answers. What makes you think the universe should be a certain way? What makes you think everyone would agree that your version of the universe would be a good one? As I have said, I like life the way it is. Some things seem to terrible to "stomach", but stomach them we do.

And yes, in the end, in Heaven, everything will be made okay. It will not matter that we went through pain and suffering because we will have a feeling of happiness that lasts forever and trumps any bad thing that happened before on little Earth.

I think I could admit that any test should be fair...but then I thought about how people saying that life isn't fair is yet another part of suffering, and perhaps that, too, is a test. But I can understand the idea of it all being fair, in a way. In a bigger way than I can fully understand, not in a way that can be measured in something easily seen, or rather, seen on the surface, like how you measure for this subject.

I know of Dr. Who. A few people here, and my one friend, talk about it. I've seen bits of it. It's interesting, but it is not a show that I really would like to take time to watch. Once again, your not-very-believing human mind, which does not know everything, merely thinks that he is an example of a better God. And, well I must say it, you should ask forgiveness for all the bad things you said about God.

Goliath, saying something is "the same" story as something else is subjective and not fact. It is opinion to say something is the same story as whatever other. Sure, so many similarities back up such an opinion, but even entirely original events have turned out to be similar to each other. This is not the best example, but history repeats. The same stuff happens over and over. Do we call it the same story?

Anyway, I am fine in thinking that perhaps in writing down what happened in the past, the people structured it a way that was like ancient Greek structures they remembered, or something.

I know that all you talk about seems so evidential, and I know it's probably hard for you to think it's not what you think it is. But I am able to believe that somehow the things that happened in the Bible are the true word of God or actually happened, but perhaps in the specific words, formed by the men who wrote it, it does make it sound like past stories or men's imagination. But that is the skeptical mind at work, pulling similarities together into a formed conclusion. There is still no real evidence like some writer admitting" Okay, I stole the story!"

As for Genesis compared to Greek Myths, Genesis isn't mean to explain how things formed, it is probably mean to explain how things exist and why. God made them, and because they were good, and then to free will, and have company, etc. And the 6 days stuff is almost definately not literal. You skipped how I said the Bible may not always be literal. And things like God making the world by saying it should be so sounds more like meaningful metaphoric explanation to me than a sexy story of gods copulating and then more gods copulating...

What other self-proclaimed prophets around Jesus time were talking about the true story of God? I know there were prophets before Jesus, but only Jesus was, well, Jesus, who said he wwas the son of God, made miracles, healed people and rose them from the dead, and somehow created enough stir to get crucified and, well, make Christianity. Yes, Christianity was seen as a "cult" at first, though I don't know what real word they used and if it really meant what we mean by cult today. Yet Christianity powerfully won over and became seen as the true religion by an overwhelming many, as it was supposed to. By what means it did, I don't know, and I don't need to. Perhaps it bothers you but it only strengthens me, I don't need to list specific reasons. You believe if you want to, man. If you like what you hear, think it makes enough sense, it moves you, sounds more truthful to your heart, or it has or does something you can't even say what it is, whatever.

At least you and me may slightly agree on the Old Testament. I believe it's quite possible the men writing the Bible back then got things wrong or inserted their own rules, and then Jesus' words, the words of the son of God, set it straighter lol. But the word of God, the main messages and what you can glean with common sense and your own heart, I believe is still in their under whatever writers messed up.

[Super Aurora]

Forget Judeo-Christianity. Boring Religion.

Let's talk about Shintoism or Buddhism instead.

[Goliath]

@ Disney Duster: what you're talking about was just my main point: we don't know that Jesus performed all those miracles, that he magically healed the blind and the sick, that he walked on water etc. Those things were written down by people who lived decades after Jesus had been crucified. Those people didn't even know Jesus themselves. So what authority do they have? And really, performing miracles? Sounds suspiciously like Greek and Roman myhtology.

And let's not forget why Christianity initially spread. The Romans turned to Christianity because they were pragmatics: they decided it was much less work to bow and pray to one God than it was to serve tens of different Gods. And it was cheaper too: only one offering to do instead of doing a dozen. In later centuries, Christianity was often spread around the world by the use of force: either believe in our God, or else be put to death. You say you don't have to know -or don't want to know about- the origins of Christianity. That, to me, is one of the main reasons why I would never choose religion: because it requires complacency. It requires not asking critical questions; it requires no doubts. And, like you demonstrate, you can bend everything to match your own logic: the Bible specifically states the Earth was created in 6 days, and then people -mortal human beings- say it was meant to be interpreted metaphorically.

Well, how do *you* know? Religious people can bend the rules so far they don't even make sense anymore. Like I demonstrated when I said that the people who call themselves Christians nowadays wouldn't even like Jesus at all if he would come down.

It's a big coincidence, but Bill Maher had a funny bit about this subject this week, about what would happen if Jesus would run in the Republican primaries:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube-nocookie.com/embed/R7KgYI8T1yg" frameborder="0"></iframe>

[Super Aurora]

The Romans also started adapting it because in roman culture, it was normal to adapt other cultures and gods that they conquered, into their own. This was a political move in for to ensnare the conquered lands not to rebel and remain stratified with their conquers.

They did this with egypt too when they adapted the goddess Isis as one of their own.





Now let's talk about buddhism instead.

[PatrickvD]

Now let's talk about buddhism instead.

Buddhism is awesome.

[Super Aurora]

Now let's talk about buddhism instead.

Buddhism is awesome.

I know. right?


Buddhist monks are able to, when protesting, set themselves on fire and able to be to meditate and be calm without screaming in pain.

That's fucking badass and hardcore.

[Disney Duster]

So...Buddhism is awesome because you can be calm while burning alive? LOL JK I understand why it's amazing but...do they eventually get seriously badly injured or die in their protests?

Goliath, yes you don't know for sure. You've got to believe it. But Jesus was the one reported as doing all that, not the others. And whatdya mean his miracles sound like mythology? You might as well say anything out of the ordianry sounds like a myth. No duh. And things like healing the sick and rising from the dead don't sound like a woman with snakes in her hair turning someone to stone.

And you only think you know how Christianity spread. Do you not realize, the only way you know anything about Jesus (aside from knowing him in your heart and spirit) is the same way you know anything about Roman history or any history. It was written down, and they found artifacts, and all that other merely evidential stuff. You gotta choose what you believe man, and even though one seems to appeal to your logical or cynical side, there is the option of believing in the more good, heartfelt, and spiritual side that goes beyond the other side. And you're choosing the other side.

And yes you are allowed to doubt and question in religion. They do it. Priests, Christian scholars, they've all done it. Priests even ask people to come to them with questions. Now yes, you are supposed to answer those questions with faith and belief, but that is the answer. What if, what if, what if? Logic, logic, logic? Doubt, doubt, doubt? The answer to it all is "Believe. In what is good, in what you want to, in what you think you should, and in what you think is right in your heart, not what seems right in logic." And this extends even to problems such as whether you should do what makes you happy or follow some law of the Bible that makes you unhappy. If you believe what you feel is right and good in your heart, you will be happy, and do what makes you happy.

And people can interpret the Bible any way. I'm pretty sure it's impossible to take it all literally. God made us, our hearts, our brains, our common sense, and our literal and metaphorical understanding. We're supposd to use it all!

So how do *I* know? I know in my heart, I know what I believe is the truth, and it all makes enough sense to me. Yea, I'm not talking completely logically, literally, or physically here. I am appealing to a higher sense, that you could choose to listen to but you probably won't. So if you want a logical reason, all I can give you is Judeo-Christianity is what came up with monotheism, and Jesus was a real person, along with all the other stuff I said that would appeal to your logic like how the Bible recorded history, the slaves who believed in the religion being freed, and the religion became a huge thing that moved so many people, something amazing. Sure, you came up with negative reasons as to why Christianity got to so big, but hey, why is it Christianity that got big, not something else. I mean Christians were forced to either believe something else or be killed, too. And yet here they are.

[Dr Frankenollie]

Dr Frankenollie, the answers can be understood. God made people that have free will, the power to choose to be bad or good. God created them, knowing what they would do, but he still gave them their own power to do it. Through pain and suffering, people must still choose to be good and believe and worship God. If God made people that were already good, in Heaven, it wouldn't be nearly as complex and powerful and amazing as new beings who choose to be good or evil, even when faced with pain and suffering that is not heavenly. God made people, Earth, life, and good and bad, because in all it is good, it is amazing.

I don't understand how it can be "amazing" at all; it would be more amazing if 'God' allowed us all to live in harmony instead of giving us the power to be 'evil.' Besides, even if for some inconceivable reason God had to give us this choice, then why does he allow some to be born in poverty (perhaps leading to them having to steal and kill to survive) and allow others to be born to royalty? I reiterate: it's not fair, and it doesn't make sense.

I suppose that you will simply say that everyone suffers in some way and everyone has to find their way to God no matter what, but don't you feel it would be more difficult to believe in an all-loving God if, for example, you just happened to have the 'wrong' sexuality or skin colour in Nazi Germany?

Let's look at the core Christian concept Duster: there is an invisible man in the sky, who, if we worship, will save us from a burning pit of fire that he himself created. The idea is practically laughable; does God sound like a nice guy to you? He lets us tear each other apart on Earth and lets us suffer in pain and suffering, and despite all of humanity's misery, sadness and anger, he expects us to apologise for sinning?! He makes us beg for forgiveness? He should be apologising to us, not vice versa, for letting us suffer in the most horrible world imaginable and making us get down our knees and worship him.

And doesn't it bother you whatsoever that, in your own words, God knew that we could be evil and yet allowed it, knowing that some of us would end up burning in pain and agony in a Hell he created?

And I don't need to know the answers to all your questions. You're asking questions that are probably actually supposed to be a mystery, known only to God. And you don't know everything about life yourself, you don't know all the answers.

You should want to know those answers Duster; if you're willingly ignoring the obvious plot holes in the Bible, then you're being close-minded. Where in the Bible does it say that you don't need to know the reasons behind all of God's madness?

If it is, I understand why: there is no way to answer the questions I asked you. There are no answers to such questions that could possibly show God in a wholly positive light, and thus Christians encourage close-mindedness.

In a hypothetical world where everyone was as close-minded as you Duster, then some of the most important inventions would never have even be considered; imagine if everyone had unanimously agreed that 'If God wanted us to fly, he'd have given us wings' when airplanes were being developed for the first time.

Obviously, many scientific discoveries would never have been made in this hypothetical world, and perhaps the Russian Revolution or similar revolts wouldn't have happened and partially dissolved fascism in this world, because even the likes of Karl Marx would have been close-minded.

What makes you think the universe should be a certain way? What makes you think everyone would agree that your version of the universe would be a good one? As I have said, I like life the way it is. Some things seem to terrible to "stomach", but stomach them we do.

I have based my vision of an ideal, much fairer universe based on my own experiences and what I've learnt and understood from history and specific philosophers and idols of mine. By the way, I don't understand what you mean by the last sentence in the quote above: I don't stomach these terrible things. Lots of people don't. What do you mean "but stomach them we do"? I presume you mean that we should stomach them.

And yes, in the end, in Heaven, everything will be made okay. It will not matter that we went through pain and suffering because we will have a feeling of happiness that lasts forever and trumps any bad thing that happened before on little Earth.

Maybe it's just me, but I don't think I would be very happy in Heaven. First of all, wouldn't paradise became a bit dull after a while? I wouldn't want to be there for all eternity, especially if the number of things I could do, the places I could explore and the things I could discover would be severely limited, because, well, it's Heaven, not the world.

Secondly, I don't think I'd be entirely comfortable knowing that millions, probably even billions of people are roasting in another sector of the afterlife. Then again, if there is a God and a Heaven and a Hell, I'm probably going to Hell anyway.

I think I could admit that any test should be fair...but then I thought about how people saying that life isn't fair is yet another part of suffering, and perhaps that, too, is a test.

...

I know of Dr. Who. A few people here, and my one friend, talk about it. I've seen bits of it. It's interesting, but it is not a show that I really would like to take time to watch. Once again, your not-very-believing human mind, which does not know everything, merely thinks that he is an example of a better God. And, well I must say it, you should ask forgiveness for all the bad things you said about God.

Super Aurora?

Anyway, I'm never going to ask for forgiveness for the 'bad things' I've said (I've only talked about how unfair the universe 'God' has created is); in fact, I'll not even apologise if he turns out to be real, as there are things that contradict each other and don't make sense in the Bible, and life simply isn't fair.

[Super Aurora]

So...Buddhism is awesome because you can be calm while burning alive? LOL JK I understand why it's amazing but...do they eventually get seriously badly injured or die in their protests?

They did get killed from being burned alive.

And whatdya mean his miracles sound like mythology? You might as well say anything out of the ordianry sounds like a myth. No duh. And things like healing the sick and rising from the dead don't sound like a woman with snakes in her hair turning someone to stone.

That's exactly what he's saying. His point is that if people can dismiss the religion of ancient Greece, ancient Egypt, etc as pure mythological. then what make the judeo-Christian religion to be exempted from it? Because it has a real life figure in it? or that some of the events in the bible actually happen like the execution?

If that was case the same could of been use for Ancient Greece. The fight on Troy was an actual real event. but the one in Iliad by Homer was greatly exaggerate to fit the need of an epic poem story.
The bible and the people who wrote it are no different in the context.

And you only think you know how Christianity spread.

No, he got it right how it spread.

If the Roman(and later the Church) hadn't initiate the religion spread, Christianity would of been a small almost dead religion. Romans were a very powerful and influential force in Europe's(and even the world) history.
Many of the apostle when trying to preach all over the world about it, got their ass killed because of it and mostly cause they were small individuals trying to cram another religion down other culture's throats.

here's map of where they tried spread but eventually got killed.

Thomas and Bartholomew got killed in India which was a Hindu religion. It tells you that other cultures did not want their religion. They had their own.

Do you not realize, the only way you know anything about Jesus (aside from knowing him in your heart and spirit) is the same way you know anything about Roman history or any history. It was written down, and they found artifacts, and all that other merely evidential stuff.

I wouldn't say the bible is an accurate depiction or source of history or what we know. We knew Jesus was a real dude because of a document by Pontius Pilate who was a real Roman, when addressing about Jesus execution.

but hey, why is it Christianity that got big, not something else. I mean Christians were forced to either believe something else or be killed, too. And yet here they are.

Same way the Islam got so big. Through aggressive use of converting and force to spread their use. What you think why the two had so many crusades wars? Land. They wanted spread land of their religion as a political way of controlling it.
Back then and even now, Religion was more often used as a political means in justifying their way to do something. This is why the Roman Church had so much power over all of Europe back in the days.[/img]

[Goliath]

But Jesus was the one reported as doing all that, not the others. And whatdya mean his miracles sound like mythology? You might as well say anything out of the ordianry sounds like a myth. No duh. And things like healing the sick and rising from the dead don't sound like a woman with snakes in her hair turning someone to stone.

You're using the same kind of technicalities you're using in Disney-related discussions to 'differentiate' between things 'Disney' and 'un-Disney'. But they're still technicalities. What you're saying is: yes, both Biblical and Roman stories have fantastic, unbelievable and unreal things happening in them, but Biblical stories are more real because...? [Insert your technicality here.]

And you only think you know how Christianity spread. Do you not realize, the only way you know anything about Jesus (aside from knowing him in your heart and spirit) is the same way you know anything about Roman history or any history. It was written down, and they found artifacts, and all that other merely evidential stuff.

You purposefully equate two things that are not equatable. You put historical evidence on the same par as fictional, subjective accounts about historical events. Those two things are not the same. But I understand you have to pretend they are, otherwise you couldn't rationalize your faith, because you would have to admit that Christianity didn't spread because "the Holy Ghost filled everybody's hearts and minds with Christ" but because they were pragmatic about it, or were forced by violence to adapt to it.

And people can interpret the Bible any way. I'm pretty sure it's impossible to take it all literally. God made us, our hearts, our brains, our common sense, and our literal and metaphorical understanding. We're supposd to use it all!

But then why use the Bible at all? All belief in God and Jesus is based on the Bible. It's the source of Christianity. Then how can you say only some parts are true and others aren't? Or that you can interpret it every way you want? That's cherry-picking. You pick what you like and you leave out what you don't like --or what *you think* God liked and didn't like. You're interpreting what's usually referred to as God's word. How can you decide for God? That's what I mean when I say that religion is not made by God, but by man. Religion is man-made and your explanation only confirms it. Though I'm sure you'll have a beautiful story for me to explain how wrong I am. Religion requires a lot of cognitive dissonance.

[ajmrowland]

Dr Frankenollie, watched the video (ha, I thought I knew who it would be) and my reply is the same. This isn't Heaven. Heaven's for later. Life can suck really super miserably bad, but heck, I like life. Even I think some things are too terrible to stand, that they just should never ever happen...and yet they happen and we stand them. The idea that in the very end everyone and everything, all the pain, will be healed and it'll all be okay...I don't care if you think it sounds impossible or unlikely, I and others can believe it.

But why do we have to wait for the pain to end? Why does 'God' have to put us through suffering mortally and then supposedly save us? Why doesn't he just transport us to Heaven? And why for that matter does he allow evil people to exist? Why doesn't he just create good souls so he doesn't have to poorly test us? And finally, why does he create us at all? What does he gain from it? Entertainment?

And if what you say is true, then let me repeat something The Amazing Atheist said: how can you stomach him? Don't you care that some invisible being who has never done anything to you demands that you worship him or threatens to let you burn? Don't you care that you and countless others have to be figuratively dragged through shit thanks to the nonsensical 'tests' of 'God' and still have to worship him to get a pass into Heaven?

If there is a God, do you think Anne Frank will be fine and dandy when she ends up in Heaven and God said that she and most of her family and friends had to suffer starvation, torture, humiliation and eventually horrific, meaningless deaths just so he could decide whether to burn them alive or not? I don't know about you Duster, but if there is a God, then he must be a sadistic, exceedingly destructive monster. I would rather go to Hell then join Mother Teresa and get on my knees and worship a self-obsessed violent Holy Trinity.

I have already made it quite clear that life cannot, under any circumstances, be a test; I've used analogies and explained basic scientific principles, which you have irritatingly chosen to ignore. But this fact still stands: for a test to be fair, it has to be the same for everyone.

Now I'm obviously not suggesting that we all have to be identical to one another as that would be boring, but saying that life *cannot* be a test. Please Duster, could you at least agree with that? You don't have to say God doesn't exist or is evil or anything like that, just agree that a test has to be the same to be fair.

Duster, do you know what Doctor Who is? The main character, as the following video shows, is a pseudo-religious, time-travelling 'saviour' figure who (unlike the Christian God) occasionally shows himself to humanity and saves them multiple times. I'm curious to find out what you think of it.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/IUld2qcyNpw" frameborder="0"></iframe>

ok, now you're refusing to see the good in just about anything.

I'm cultured enough to know i can be happy in this world. are you?

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quoted right person, but wrong quote

[Elladorine]

Whether or not you believe God exists, if he's the omnimpotent being that most of us envision him as, his sense of fairness would be unfathomable to us. If he really is "testing" us, who are we to say there has to be a level playing field, or even what a level playing field is? It would have nothing to do with our mortal status regardless. Certain advantages that people may be born under (monetary or otherwise) mean absolutely nothing when it comes to the decisions they make in their lives. Someone born into riches may not necessarily be a better person than one that was born into poverty, and being well-off at any point does not guarantee having a good heart or being appreciative of the life they've been given. An extremely rich man donating a million dollars to charity means absolutely nothing when compared to a starving man offering his last bit of food to a hungry child. Anyone can easily be a "good" person when not faced with any strife; it's the hard times that bring out our true character. And if this life we're given is indeed a test, it's most likely about the decisions we make as individuals through whatever strife we face.

[Dr Frankenollie]

ok, now you're refusing to see the good in just about anything.

I'm cultured enough to know i can be happy in this world. are you?

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quoted right person, but wrong quote

I think I know what quote you're referring to...

Ajmrowland, I hope you realise that some of what I said wasn't self-pitying jargon; when I talked about pain and suffering, I was referring to the countless people starving in LEDCs, the countless people with incurable illnesses and diseases, the countless people who lose family and friends for no reason, the countless people who are discriminated against and hated. The world is an extremely unhappy place.

However, I am 'cultured' enough to realise that people can still be happy. Please don't visualise me as a nihilistic goth or emo; I can be optimistic and I often very cheerful and happy. I'm pointing out the severe flaws in society and the Earth as a whole to show Duster that a perfect God wouldn't allow such an imperfect world.

[Super Aurora]

[Disney Duster]

Dr Frankenollie, but it is more amazing for everyone to have a choice, a power, to be able to decide to be good or evil, than for God to make everyone be happy. I mean in a way it makes us like God, having choice. And God maybe didn't have to give us a choice but just wanted to because it's great. If you don't think it's great, well that's your negative opinion.

Your idea of the core Christian concept is not how it is. God is not an invisible man but some power, some being beyond any physical understanding that we are not quite sure what he is or why everything is the way it is but we have things like the Bible and your own heart and you choose to believe in it or not. And yes God allowed evil to exist by allowing choice. Hell is actually not a literal fiery pit but the pain and suffering of choosing to be without God by choosing not to love him or obey him.

Like enigmawing beautifully said, (and thank you so much enigmawing, that was GREAT and very well said!), it is through pain and suffering that we can better see our true character. The reason we apologize for sinning is because God knows what we do not, what you do not, and often we sin because we choose badly in a world that has some pain and suffering.

And you keep saying we have the worst world ever, but that is merely an opinion of yours and others. Not everyone agrees the world is a terrible place, whether it's bad or not will always be opinion. Since just as many people can see the world is good, why not take the more positive route like them?

And by stomaching things I mean we deal with them. The world is not so bad that every single person in it commits suicide every single day.

As for Heaven, if you were the kind of person who would be ready for Heaven when the time came, you would be the kind of person who could be happy in it. Heaven is ctually something grander than the world or anything you can imagine, and you are using logic of your biological human body on Earth to say you think you wouldn't like heaven, which is something impossible for your very mind to imagine or understand all of. Generally, I think you can understand that in heaven, most likely a feeling would overcome you that you felt happy forever and didn't worry about anything, not even the fact that you were to be in heaven forever. You just wouldn't want anything else. Yes, you worry on Earth now, but this ain't heaven. You just have no idea what exactly it will be like.

You should ask forgiveness for saying negative things about God and calling him negative names.

Super Aurora, okay well I already explained the differences between the Bible and Greek myth, not the least of which is one details how a religion was revealed to people and came to be. There's something more about a God and his son, a man with evidence of really living, telling us what to believe and how to behave, vs. Greek stories that are only meant to explain what science does and entertain.

The reasons you state about why Christianity got so huge are good theories and there's lots of evidence but that still doesn't officially say that's all it is, the only reasons. Since the Bible does state how God planned events to happen a certain way, who knows if that's how God wanted religion to spread, who knows. The Christian Pokemon play-through is really hilarious though. lol

Goliath, what I said to Super Aurora, except also the fact that belief in God and Jesus does not only come from the Bible, it also comes from them themselves and our hearts, minds and spirits, but yes it comes from both. Though I suppose spirituality in general could be feeling and knowing of God, that you don't have to get from the Bible, it just doesn't tell specific things God rather us know more of, which the Bible does.

Anything anyone else said that I didn't address, I either don't agree with or am flat out saying is wrong. That's my stand.

[Disney's Divinity]

Whether or not you believe God exists, if he's the omnimpotent being that most of us envision him as, his sense of fairness would be unfathomable to us. If he really is "testing" us, who are we to say there has to be a level playing field, or even what a level playing field is?

I agree. I always imagined a fair, omnipotent being would taken into account the circumstances each individual was given, what they've gone through/what they're going through--and that would create a level playing field. Yes, people can show good character in all situations, but it's much easier to be a 'good person' when your situation is always bright and sunny a la the rich man. Imagine you're an impoverished, diseased, poorly educated, poorly parented, and isolated individual. It's a lot harder to make good choices--or to know what "good choices" are--when you're forced to live like an animal.

It kind of reminds me of what I've learned about reading instruction: not all students come into the classroom with the same abilities or capabilities, or even on the same reading level. That's why you take into account the growth they've made from where they've started, even if they still aren't perfect.

[Super Aurora]

Super Aurora, okay well I already explained the differences between the Bible and Greek myth, not the least of which is one details how a religion was revealed to people and came to be. There's something more about a God and his son, a man with evidence of really living, telling us what to believe and how to behave, vs. Greek stories that are only meant to explain what science does and entertain.

Uh no. Both the bible and the mythologies of ancient worlds had origin stories of how things came to be or how things happen, and stories of teaching morals or lessons. Both Jude-Christianity serve the purpose of teaching humans of something.

Also Most of the importance of the new testament was more of the the philosophies of Jesus. Jesus was not that much different from Buddha or Plato who taught people of values and self humanity. Only thing that people paid more attention on Jesus compare the other two is the "son of God" piece as oppose to morals and values of Jesus have taught. I bet you have Jesus or the bible never claim such a title, Jesus wouldn't be the figure people regard him as now nor would Christianity become ever a religion, or if it did, it would be along the lines of Buddhism.

Point of matter is, both greek (and other ancient mythologies) and judeo-christianity share a lot of similarities as well as shared a similar purpose too.

The reasons you state about why Christianity got so huge are good theories and there's lots of evidence

Those aren't theories. It's been proven countless times. No wonder people get pissed when they say you tends twist people's word to your own argument. Cause that's just exactly what you're doing right there.

but that still doesn't officially say that's all it is, the only reasons.

It been proven that is major core and essential piece of it. They may be other smaller elements to cause but the overall major one is the one I listed earlier.

Since the Bible does state how God planned events to happen a certain way, who knows if that's how God wanted religion to spread, who knows.

Then I find it hard to believe he such a benevolent and kind God then.

Being a deist, I always prefer an Omnipotent God to be a neutral God who has no affairs in human world given fact he beyond needing anything to do with such beings.

Anything anyone else said that I didn't address, I either don't agree with or am flat out saying is wrong. That's my stand.

And this is why no one take you seriously or get fucking annoyed with you. Just to let you know why you wonder this.