Another Religion Thread

[Heartless]

Thanks for rebutting some of Duster's statements in his previous post, Heartless.

No problem, just throwing my own opinions in there. Nice to be on the same page, though.

Heartless obviously meant your backwards version of logic when he or she said 'your logic.'

Oops, missed this one! Frankenollie is correct, thanks.

So if you believe that something couldn't have come from nothing, where do you think 'God' come from?

haha, a good point.

Imagine a world without religion, a world based on the beliefs of science and, most importantly, rationality and logic alone. Religion was only ever created, if one uses rational ideas, for comfort, to make sense of the universe. Thousands of years ago people were confused and needed something. Something to make sense in their lives; so they made things up. But now, with modern sciences continuing to be improved is religion important anymore?

This is precisely the point I was trying to make. Thanks for expounding on this idea.

Religion is not a good thing. It makes people arrogant of their religion, or prejudiced against others. Many of the ideals in Holy Books are severely dated. The real reason that Jews made a religious law against eating pork is because, thousands of years ago, pork and shellfish were filled with contagious parasites. But today’s cleaning of products and knowledge of how to get rid of parasites is so improved then thousands of years ago, this Jewish law is unnecessary.

It's not like I think religion itself is some horrid evil thing. If people want to believe in something, be my guest. But do not try to push your ideals on other people.

And not to mention the millions of people who have died due to religion. Please, lets not forget these almighty Christians have sought out people of other religions and killed them if they did not convert. Oh, and lets also not forget the Holocaust (which millions of people died because of their religion). The point is, religion seems to cause more problems than solve. It's kinda ironic that so many people are affected negatively by religion.

Duster, if you offer ANY kind of proof that 'God', specifically the Christian one, does exist, then honestly - I shall listen. But you have to be the one to offer proof. If someone claimed that they could fly, then it would be silly of them to say "Prove I can't fly". They have to prove that they can!

You pose a great point. But like the many who have been asked this question, there is no answer. There is no proof.

[Dr Frankenollie]

Thanks for the support and encouragement Heartless. You should post more.

[Disney Duster]

Well, I think time, space, plants and animals and other things on Earth were made for us to have things to do, lol, but humans think of things beyond what animals do, so, we are the ones who it makes sense would most be like God.

And God the power that made everything exist. That’s why existence makes me believe in God. If you mean “why one Christian God” or whatever, well, it’s as simple as believing in just a power, a God, and Judaism and Christianity were the ones who brought up only the one God.

And anyone saying that religion is excuses, why we have any religion, or that you know why people believed what they did, is all still only your guesses and opinions. People wrote down what they believed, but not “why” they believed, except for the times these people wrote down the reasons they believed was because God, or angels, or something else told them!

As for why there are atheists, it is because they reject the religious ideas, that they still can understand.

And it is really only your guess as to how morality or anything was “created”. It may only be as created as opinions of anything are created. We just think what we think, we feel what’s right is what we feel is what’s right. I do feel people have a right to do what they please but only to a degree.

I believe God came from himself. That is not nothing, it is from himself. This is an idea that is probably something you’d say is impossible or some other criticism, but I can fathom the idea, if you can’t, then oh well, but I’m sure you really could trust it, you just will probably decide not to.

You think, merely think, that your reasons as to why we have religion is right. But once again it’s only your opinion. And yes, religion is important. It talks of things other than just what is science or logic, other than just the physical. It is other thoughts in our mind. We shouldn’t ignore thinking of everything, every possibility, every idea, that is good, that is. Maybe even you could agree with that? And I know you say religion isn’t good, but that, too, is your opinion. It has been used for bad in the past, but that doesn’t mean it is within itself, on it’s own, bad. But belief in good things is indeed more important than even the bad things caused by religion. It’s like, which would you rather have, all the food and shelter to live forever, or people who love you as long as you get to be alive? It’s that kind of thing, religion in this case would be the love. And it is a metaphoric example, not literal, don’t go comparing, it’s simply meant to make you get an idea of what I mean.

And to be specific on the Jewish law about pork, well that’s only one part of religion, not the whole thing, you can choose to believe what you want and what you don’t, but I will say I think the law was fine because it did keep people safe back then. So we have to use our minds today to realize that we can eat pork now, and realize what that law really meant for back then. That’s okay. It is only some people, apparently you one of them, who decide to take the law in certain ways, like as in never eating pork ever.

And I do offer proof God exists. And that proof is: all that exists. There it is. If you don’t buy it or accept it, that is your own fault, people.

[Heartless]

And God the power that made everything exist. That’s why existence makes me believe in God. If you mean “why one Christian God” or whatever, well, it’s as simple as believing in just a power, a God, and Judaism and Christianity were the ones who brought up only the one God.

No, I'm not talking about a God. I'm talking about the OTHER theories out there about what made everything exist. For example, the Big Bang (there are many other theories, this is just a well-known one). What makes you believe God created everything, but that the Big Bang (or another theory) didn't.

And anyone saying that religion is excuses, why we have any religion, or that you know why people believed what they did, is all still only your guesses and opinions. People wrote down what they believed, but not “why” they believed, except for the times these people wrote down the reasons they believed was because God, or angels, or something else told them!

No.. religion has been an excuse for things. This has been proved several times in the past. Some Native Americans created a religion that made a Goddess of the Harvest. They worshipped and prayed and danced around fires to this Goddess of the Harvest in hopes that crops would grow. This was an aspect of their religion. They created this Goddess to explain the harvest and seasons.

Are you saying that its possible they started to believe in this Goddess because a 'higher being' planted this idea into their heads? Why would God tell people to worship false deities (like, the Greeks, Romans, Egyptians, and etc did)... that would go against everything. Worshipping false deities goes against the ten commandments. In this case, God would be forcing people to sin. How does that make sense?

And it is really only your guess as to how morality or anything was “created”. It may only be as created as opinions of anything are created. We just think what we think, we feel what’s right is what we feel is what’s right. I do feel people have a right to do what they please but only to a degree.

I don't understand what you just said.

I believe God came from himself. That is not nothing, it is from himself. This is an idea that is probably something you’d say is impossible or some other criticism, but I can fathom the idea, if you can’t, then oh well, but I’m sure you really could trust it, you just will probably decide not to.

So what if I could fathom the Big Bang, and I'm sure you could really trust it but just decide not to? The same things you put on us could be flipped around and put on you, and its no different...

You think, merely think, that your reasons as to why we have religion is right. But once again it’s only your opinion. And yes, religion is important. It talks of things other than just what is science or logic, other than just the physical. It is other thoughts in our mind. We shouldn’t ignore thinking of everything, every possibility, every idea, that is good, that is. Maybe even you could agree with that? And I know you say religion isn’t good, but that, too, is your opinion. It has been used for bad in the past, but that doesn’t mean it is within itself, on it’s own, bad. But belief in good things is indeed more important than even the bad things caused by religion. It’s like, which would you rather have, all the food and shelter to live forever, or people who love you as long as you get to be alive? It’s that kind of thing, religion in this case would be the love. And it is a metaphoric example, not literal, don’t go comparing, it’s simply meant to make you get an idea of what I mean.

The same could be said for you! The same reasons YOU think we have religion is only a guess! Only an opinion! The fact that all aspects of religion is only a guess (about a very farfetched idea, no less) makes me tend to think there is little truth to it.

I think of things beyond the physical every day. I think of possibilities all the time. This is why I have formed an opinion on this very subject. I am very open to all possibilities. I do agree with that. I am open to the idea of religion, but every question I ask about it goes unanswered. The possibility of it actually existing is so low in my mind because of that fact.

Now, I'll flip the same scenario on you. You should also be open to the fact that religion may not exist. Simply, be open to that idea. I'd never ask you to reject religion on any thing like that, but I'd suggest you open your mind to that possibility.

The more open people are about everything, the better they can come to their own, truthful conclusion.

And also, I'd take the food and shelter to live forever.

And I do offer proof God exists. And that proof is: all that exists. There it is. If you don’t buy it or accept it, that is your own fault, people.

No, wait! I can offer proof that The Big Bang actually happened! That proof is: all things exist. There it is. If you don't buy it or accept it, that is your own fault.
That is not proof by any means. There is no definitive evidence your reason is true. There is no reasonable evidence to make your belief that things exist because of God more true than someone's belief that the Big Bang created things. If anything, it should be the other way around, because scientists actually have working theorems and data that a Big Bang occurred. That is more than can be said about a God.

[Super Aurora]

There is no God. How do I know? Cause God wouldn't allow shit like this to exist:

[KubrickFan]

And I do offer proof God exists. And that proof is: all that exists. There it is. If you don’t buy it or accept it, that is your own fault, people.

Yeah... It doesn't really work that way. That's like a man saying that boy is his kid, because it's there. We all exist, but there's no proof an omnipotent being did it.

I find the premise heavily flawed. If the God that exists (let's keep it singular for simplicity's sake) managed to micromanage the billions and billions of planets and us on our little planet and then lets us be (one common theory) then you have to ask yourself what creator would do that.
Otherwise, if he sees everything we do, you have to wonder why there's so much crap happening in the world. Either way, it would be a pretty flawed omnipotent being, no?
But then you say "we're not supposed to question him, and everything is part of his plan." Well, that's just really convenient, isn't it? Whatever terrible things might happen, we know God did it for a reason but we surely mustn't question him. So how do you know it's part of his plan anyway?

I get why people fall back on religion when times get hard. People don't like being insignificant, and what's better than a God especially watching out for you? Knowing there must be a purpose for your sorrow?
But then realize this. There are 4 billion stars in our galaxy, with about 4 trillion planets orbiting them (estimated, we don't even know for sure). Multiply that by an (again estimated) 125 billion galaxies, and the amount of planets that exist is absolutely enormous. Why would some omnipotent being care what you do all day?

[Lazario]

I get why people fall back on religion when times get hard. People don't like being insignificant, and what's better than a God especially watching out for you? Knowing there must be a purpose for your sorrow?
But then realize this. There are 4 billion stars in our galaxy, with about 4 trillion planets orbiting them (estimated, we don't even know for sure). Multiply that by an (again estimated) 125 billion galaxies, and the amount of planets that exist is absolutely enormous. Why would some omnipotent being care what you do all day?

The one I hear the most is: "He" created us in "His" image. Whatever that means. (Seriously- I know what it's supposed to mean but, even then, it doesn't make any sense.) But the argument is surely that "He" doesn't pay attention to all the other species in the universe because "He" created us special. "He" only judges us and sends us to heaven or hell. You know- screw all the other lifeforms that live, they're just here to have an impact on our lives. Because "He" didn't make them in "His" image, they're insignificant and their "salvation" doesn't matter.

[Super Aurora]

The big problem and flaw isn't that a God can exist, but that a God is on one side of a "force"(good or evil). This bring in numerous contradiction and oddities.

If there is a supreme God. He would most likely be neutral and has no alliance with any so call "good" or "evil". He's just a God. The concept of an All-Good God is what makes it truly a flawed God.

[Lazario]

The big problem and flaw isn't that a God can exist, but that a God is on one side of a "force"(good or evil). This bring in numerous contradiction and oddities.

YOU'RE WRONG!!! (Did you expect to see that when you clicked on the thread? )

That was brilliant. Well, it was common sense. But you brilliantly put it into context.

[Dr Frankenollie]

Well, I think time, space, plants and animals and other things on Earth were made for us to have things to do, lol, but humans think of things beyond what animals do, so, we are the ones who it makes sense would most be like God.

What? So we have things to do?! So you don't care about animals or anything like that, they don't matter in God's Master Plan? Are they just props which our encounters with will either amuse God or provide test results?

If there is a God, why did he create the universe? And where did he come from? What are his motives? How did he choose what is good and evil, what is fair and unfair, et cetera? Are humans just pets to him? Does he award us if we behave with a treat like Heaven? Is that how it works? If he wants life to enjoy his creation, then why doesn't he just allow us to come to Heaven immediately? And why does Earth have to have evil?

Evil cannot test us; I've already explained why. No matter what you say, even if the Devil created evil, God must be responsible for its creation (because according to Catholicism, the Devil/Satan/Lucifer was an angel, and anyone can infer from the Bible that God magicked them up to fill up Heaven). Why do people die? Why does he want us to suffer? Is he like a little boy with a magnifying glass directed at an ant hill on a sunny day? If there is a God, then he must be a destructive sadist.

And even if you say that he doesn't involve himself with the world, then he's willingly neglecting us and letting us suffer. No matter what you say Duster...there are a lot of plot holes in the Bible.

And God the power that made everything exist. That’s why existence makes me believe in God. If you mean “why one Christian God” or whatever, well, it’s as simple as believing in just a power, a God, and Judaism and Christianity were the ones who brought up only the one God.

Guess what Duster? Existence makes me believe in Lunos. That makes me sense, right?

And anyone saying that religion is excuses, why we have any religion, or that you know why people believed what they did, is all still only your guesses and opinions. People wrote down what they believed, but not “why” they believed, except for the times these people wrote down the reasons they believed was because God, or angels, or something else told them!

Riiiiiiiight...well what about how Muhammad wrote down the teachings of 'Allah'? I know that Catholicism is a lot more credible than Islam, seeing as only Muhammad saw 'angels' after going into a cave, while plenty wrote down teachings, parables and stories in the Bible. Yet there is not a shred of proof that anything in the Bible is truthful.

The so-called historical events presented in the Bible are presented solely in there. Big events, like the freeing of the slaves and King Herod's order of killing all baby boys in his kingdom, are only recorded as 'fact' in the Bible. Wouldn't they be recorded anywhere else?

I believe God came from himself. That is not nothing, it is from himself. This is an idea that is probably something you’d say is impossible or some other criticism, but I can fathom the idea, if you can’t, then oh well, but I’m sure you really could trust it, you just will probably decide not to.

I just as easily say that the universe came from itself, and say that if you can't, then oh well, but I'm sure you really could trust it, you just will probably decide not to. If you don't realise what I'm doing, Duster, let me make it clear: Your arguments are total nothingness and words like God and Christianity are easily interchangeable with the likes of Lunos and Lunacy.

You think, merely think, that your reasons as to why we have religion is right. But once again it’s only your opinion. And yes, religion is important. It talks of things other than just what is science or logic, other than just the physical. It is other thoughts in our mind. We shouldn’t ignore thinking of everything, every possibility, every idea, that is good, that is. Maybe even you could agree with that?

Yes, I agree with that. But nonetheless...when a certain possibility is illogical, full of holes, doesn't make sense in any way, shape or form, then surely I'm allowed to be sceptical?

And I know you say religion isn’t good, but that, too, is your opinion. It has been used for bad in the past, but that doesn’t mean it is within itself, on it’s own, bad.

Well what about how the Old Testament says we should have slaves, and homosexuals should be stoned, and other hateful nonsense like that?

And to be specific on the Jewish law about pork, well that’s only one part of religion, not the whole thing, you can choose to believe what you want and what you don’t, but I will say I think the law was fine because it did keep people safe back then. So we have to use our minds today to realize that we can eat pork now, and realize what that law really meant for back then. That’s okay. It is only some people, apparently you one of them, who decide to take the law in certain ways, like as in never eating pork ever.

It was merely an example of outdated religious ideas and rules.

And I do offer proof God exists. And that proof is: all that exists. There it is. If you don’t buy it or accept it, that is your own fault, people.

Heartless replied to this well, but I'll say something similar:

I do offer proof that Lunos exists. And that proof is: all that exists. If you don't buy it or accept it, that is your own fault, people.

But in all seriousness, that silly, interchangeable argument could be used for any God, not just the Christian God. Don't you have any proof to back up your belief in one specific God? You could substitute God with Allah in those final sentences, Duster, and you know it.

[Disney Duster]

Well, science still says something can’t come from nothing, so the Big Bang still had to come from somewhere. The point is that nothing in the universe that science can physically measure can come from nothing. However, the idea of a non-physical power outside of this could then exist, and that is what I call God. And this power then made the Big Bang and the rest.

It has not been proved religion is an excuse for things for all cases, but I would believe that some people did make up some false gods before God was revealed to them, as I could also believe the idea that the same God talked to everyone and some interpreted it as multiple gods and some interpreted it as one. However what I truly believe is that God may have spiritually influenced people over time, resulting in many still believeing in many gods, but then when the time was right, God finally came out and revealed himself as the one God and got the word to spread. Or maybe people just realized it at that time, or something. But I believe it went something like what the Bible says.

And I already have thought of the idea of things religion says not existing, many times, mainly when I was younger.

I have already gone over how, yes, bad happens to us in this world, but this world is not Heaven. We have to go through bad, and yes, it can indeed test us as I already explained before, and we must be good and faithful through it all, to finally get to Heaven where no bad happens any more. That’s how it is. I’ve been through horrible things, even asking “God, why?!”, but I still believe and love God. Keep hoping it will be better in the end, the afterlife, because nothing physical lasts, you either got hope or putting all your stock in what will turn to dust.

And I do not thing that animals are nothing to God, I think they are something, especially in humans, in his image, love animals. But there is no denying we are special. Yes, there is the possibility there are other things out there thinking of even the subject of God in the first place, but all we truly know is that we are here being the ones doing that.

And the idea of God knowing what is truly good is merely an idea. I mean, there’s always a possibility that there is a true good, it’s one we can understand, that one omnipotent being would know such a thing.

The things in the Bible do indeed correlate with history, such as the mass flood that occurred.

I do not believe in everything in the Bible, at least not the way that you and others are saying to. I believe that some things in the Bible were wrongly written in by the men who did it, or that some people aren’t understanding them right. For instance, I don’t think the Bible ever had the word homosexual originally, it was actually changed to that by modern translators. That’s just one example.

Anyway, I already gave my proof for God, if you don't accept it, fine, that's you, but it still stands true no matter what any of you will say in any further posts. I’ve even explained more about why, above.

Dr Frankenollie, faithful to God as I am, I must say: all the negative things you say about God will never be true, no matter what you say, and you should apologize and ask forgiveness. I’m sure this irked you, but dude, I gotta say it!

[Dr Frankenollie]

Duster, I don't have time for long, detailed retorts, but I promise to reply tomorrow. Just know that you are wrong.

[Goliath]

I'm not going to adress any of the posts and points made in the discussion above. That debate has been done a few times already and I think most people can probably guess my reply to the arguments made above, anyway. But I'm gonna tell a little story and I'm gonna be brutally honest, so nobody laugh, please...

Despite the fact that I'm not religious at all and don't believe in any 'conventional' image of a high deity (I consider myself agnostic), I do experience moments of 'spiritual' or 'religious' feelings from time to time. I hope none of you think I'm making a joke here, but I always get those feelings whenever I'm listening to the album Slow Train Coming of Bob Dylan. His first of three religious albums (he had conversed to born-again Christianity) has struck me in a way no church mass, religious preaching or Bible story has ever done. I'll try to explain...

All songs on this terrific (grossly under-appreciated) album are about Dylan's new-found beliefs in the Christian God. But these are not songs about "believe in God, or otherwise you'll burn in Hell" or "behave this-and-this way, otherwise you're a sinner". None of that dogmatic shit. Basically, these are songs about the goodness and love God and the Christian religion can bring us. Many songs underscore what's wrong with the world nowadays and offers the peaceful belief in Jesus as the solution. It's brilliant societal commentary and criticism of all bad elements of our culture.

And all this is sung by Dylan from the deepest depths of his soul with a conviction and a passion and a sincerity that I haven't heard before. There's simply nothing fake or hypocritical about it; something I often find in religious leaders and their followers. He is helped by Mark Knopfler (of Dire Straits fame) who plays the electric guitar magnificently, and a wonderful choir of background singers to add a gospel-flavour to some of the songs.

The song that gets me the most, is 'Precious Angel'. It's about how Dylan had been blind for the truth before he found religion and he's singing this song to thank the precious angel who has making him see the light. Whenever I put on this song, I get the feeling he's right. Listening to him and those golden-throated women who back him up, this sounds so sincere and pure that it becomes almost convincing. The line he repeats is "shine your light/shine your light on me/you know I just can't make it by myself/I'm a little too blind to see". Maybe it's because that's a sentiment that resonates so well with me lately, but I get a feeling I can't define...

You can't understand without having heard it. Unfortunately, none of these songs are on YouTube, but it's worth downloading some songs to check them. Because even if you are a die-hard atheist, you'll appreciate the sharpness and intelligence of Dylan's social commentary and the total absense of preachy dogma. I'm sure Disney Duster would totally dig this album, as would other religious forum members to whom their religion is, in the first place, a source of inspiration and strenght (instead of a collection of restrictive rules). I'm sure they will recognize their faith in these songs.

I'm gonna post the lyrics to three of the songs and I'll mark the parts that have struck me very deeply with italics:


Precious Angel

Precious angel, under the sun
How was I to know you’d be the one
To show me I was blinded, to show me I was gone
How weak was the foundation I was standing upon?

Now there’s spiritual warfare and flesh and blood breaking down
You either got faith or you got unbelief and there ain’t no neutral ground
The enemy is subtle, how be it we are so deceived
When the truth’s in our hearts and we still don’t believe?

Shine your light, shine your light on me
Shine your light, shine your light on me
Shine your light, shine your light on me
Ya know I just couldn’t make it by myself
I’m a little too blind to see

My so-called friends have fallen under a spell
They look me squarely in the eye and they say, “All is well”
Can they imagine the darkness that will fall from on high
When men will beg God to kill them and they won’t be able to die?

Sister, let me tell you about a vision that I saw
You were drawing water for your husband, you were suffering under the law
You were telling him about Buddha, you were telling him about Mohammed in one breath
You never mentioned one time the Man who came and died a criminal’s death

Shine your light, shine your light on me
Shine your light, shine your light on me
Shine your light, shine your light on me
Ya know I just couldn’t make it by myself
I’m a little too blind to see

Precious angel, you believe me when I say
What God has given to us no man can take away
We are covered in blood, girl, you know our forefathers were slaves
Let us hope they’ve found mercy in their bone-filled graves

You’re the queen of my flesh, girl, you’re my woman, you’re my delight
You’re the lamp of my soul, girl, and you torch up the night
But there’s violence in the eyes, girl, so let us not be enticed
On the way out of Egypt, through Ethiopia, to the judgment hall of Christ

Shine your light, shine your light on me
Shine your light, shine your light on me
Shine your light, shine your light on me
Ya know I just couldn’t make it by myself
I’m a little too blind to see



Slow Train

Sometimes I feel so low-down and disgusted
Can’t help but wonder what’s happenin’ to my companions
Are they lost or are they found
Have they counted the cost it’ll take to bring down
All their earthly principles they’re gonna have to abandon?
There’s a slow, slow train comin’ up around the bend

I had a woman down in Alabama
She was a backwoods girl, but she sure was realistic
She said, “Boy, without a doubt
Have to quit your mess and straighten out
You could die down here, be just another accident statistic”
There’s a slow, slow train comin’ up around the bend

All that foreign oil controlling American soil
Look around you, it’s just bound to make you embarrassed
Sheiks walkin’ around like kings
Wearing fancy jewels and nose rings
Deciding America’s future from Amsterdam and to Paris
And there’s a slow, slow train comin’ up around the bend

Man’s ego is inflated, his laws are outdated, they don’t apply no more
You can’t rely no more to be standin’ around waitin'
In the home of the brave
Jefferson turnin’ over in his grave
Fools glorifying themselves, trying to manipulate Satan
And there’s a slow, slow train comin’ up around the bend

Big-time negotiators, false healers and woman haters
Masters of the bluff and masters of the proposition
But the enemy I see
Wears a cloak of decency
All nonbelievers and men stealers talkin’ in the name of religion
And there’s a slow, slow train comin’ up around the bend

People starving and thirsting, grain elevators are bursting
Oh, you know it costs more to store the food than it do to give it
They say lose your inhibitions
Follow your own ambitions
They talk about a life of brotherly love show me someone who knows how to live it
There’s a slow, slow train comin’ up around the bend

Well, my baby went to Illinois with some bad-talkin’ boy she could destroy
A real suicide case, but there was nothin’ I could do to stop it
I don’t care about economy
I don’t care about astronomy
But it sure do bother me to see my loved ones turning into puppets
There’s a slow, slow train comin’ up around the bend



When You Gonna Wake Up?

God don’t make no promises that He don’t keep
You got some big dreams, baby, but in order to dream you gotta still be asleep

When you gonna wake up, when you gonna wake up
When you gonna wake up and strengthen the things that remain?

Counterfeit philosophies have polluted all of your thoughts
Karl Marx has got ya by the throat, Henry Kissinger’s got you tied up in knots

When you gonna wake up, when you gonna wake up
When you gonna wake up and strengthen the things that remain?

You got innocent men in jail, your insane asylums are filled
You got unrighteous doctors dealing drugs that’ll never cure your ills

When you gonna wake up, when you gonna wake up
When you gonna wake up and strengthen the things that remain?

You got men who can’t hold their peace and women who can’t control their tongues
The rich seduce the poor and the old are seduced by the young

When you gonna wake up, when you gonna wake up
When you gonna wake up and strengthen the things that remain?

Adulterers in churches and pornography in the schools
You got gangsters in power and lawbreakers making rules

When you gonna wake up, when you gonna wake up
When you gonna wake up and strengthen the things that remain?

Spiritual advisors and gurus to guide your every move
Instant inner peace and every step you take has got to be approved

When you gonna wake up, when you gonna wake up
When you gonna wake up and strengthen the things that remain?

Do you ever wonder just what God requires?
You think He’s just an errand boy to satisfy your wandering desires

When you gonna wake up, when you gonna wake up
When you gonna wake up and strengthen the things that remain?

You can’t take it with you and you know that it’s too worthless to be sold
They tell you, “Time is money,” as if your life was worth its weight in gold

When you gonna wake up, when you gonna wake up
When you gonna wake up and strengthen the things that remain?

There’s a Man on a cross and He be crucified for you
Believing in His power, that's about all you gotta do

When you gonna wake up, when you gonna wake up
When you gonna wake up and strengthen the things that remain?

[Disney Duster]

Wow. That was really nice Goliath. I had no idea about Dylan or your thoughts on that or any of that. Dylan does have some great lyrics there, something I never would have known or thought about till you.

I really like his lyrics about men being fools and their earthly rules, when those things earthly things go, what's left? Your spirit. I really like these lyrics particularly:

"You can’t take it with you and you know that it’s too worthless to be sold
They tell you, “Time is money,” as if your life was worth its weight in gold"

It sumes up, for me, how especially today they always tell you to rush and work, not to survive and be happy but to make money and be "successful" and "productive" and it's like...what is all that gonna matter later? What about your feelings, or family, or friends? What about enjoying your time?

But the answer to this:

Do you ever wonder just what God requires?
You think He’s just an errand boy to satisfy your wandering desires

May only be this:
Believing in His power, that's about all you gotta do

I wonder if the feeling you get, I mean, if I may suggest a possibility, is how you are smart and the world is full of lots of stuff, good and bad, and you just wonder "what should I do?", like my friend who is so smart and siad she tried to have faith but felt she couldn't. You just let it go and go with your heart, believe in something good, spiritual, and above this physical, logical earth. Something better than all that. Something so powerful it really could give us all peace. But you wish someone would show you, shine the light. But it is in your heart, and you have to make the effort. It's there. But you have to let go and make a choice to believe.

[disneyboy20022]

The Church I go to makes sense. They preachers admit they are not perfect, and really good sermons. They bring sometimes humor into the service (for instance they announced that they were going to give everyone in the service a house...so they pulled up the audio of happy music or something, and they gave out a house. It was a monopoly house. Then all the preachers were saying you get a house you get a house. It really fun to go to church, at least the one I go to. They have sermons that are really great sermons and doesn't mellowdrama it with it. It's hard to explain how well this church is....here is the website of it.


http://www.broadwaycc.org/

A couple weeks ago this song was sung in church. It's a very moving and powerful song. It's great


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[Goliath]

Wow. That was really nice Goliath. I had no idea about Dylan or your thoughts on that or any of that. Dylan does have some great lyrics there, something I never would have known or thought about till you.

It's amazing and fascinating to me how he could 'become' a born-again Christian, when he had been this counter-culture icon of free-thinking, questioning authorities, examining the status quo, doing everything that God has forbidden... and *still* be authentic and honest. You can hear it in the way he sings. He's not putting on an act; he's really totally believing in all this Christian talk. In later years, he stopped making religious songs and he walked away from the label 'born-again', but that, too, was only a logical evolution. I think he mirrors me (or, better: I mirror him), in that we both sometimes search for answers, especially in hard times, but we're probably too much into the here-and-now to hold onto any spiritual feelings.

I really like his lyrics about men being fools and their earthly rules, when those things earthly things go, what's left? Your spirit. I really like these lyrics particularly:

"You can’t take it with you and you know that it’s too worthless to be sold
They tell you, “Time is money,” as if your life was worth its weight in gold"

It sumes up, for me, how especially today they always tell you to rush and work, not to survive and be happy but to make money and be "successful" and "productive" and it's like...what is all that gonna matter later? What about your feelings, or family, or friends? What about enjoying your time?

That's exactly how I feel, though I don't neccessarily relate that to religious/Christian motives. I just wonder, philosophically, what it is that we're supposed to do, or what we're here for. I mean, I look around and I don't know. My (temporary, I hope) job has to do with selling contracts. And my co-workers get all enthusiastic when they make a sale, and my supervisor tries to motivate us with small bonuses and celebrates when one of us makes a sale... and it's so surreal to me, because I couldn't care less. And then I think about what you said: what are we supposed to do? Sell lots of stuff, earn lots of money, and then buy stuff for ourselves? What's the purpose in getting up, go to work, come home, eat, sleep... and then get up again and go to work again?

But the aimless-ness of the capitalist system drives you to religion while it drives me to socialism.

I wonder if the feeling you get, I mean, if I may suggest a possibility, is how you are smart and the world is full of lots of stuff, good and bad, and you just wonder "what should I do?", like my friend who is so smart and siad she tried to have faith but felt she couldn't. You just let it go and go with your heart, believe in something good, spiritual, and above this physical, logical earth. Something better than all that. Something so powerful it really could give us all peace. But you wish someone would show you, shine the light. But it is in your heart, and you have to make the effort. It's there. But you have to let go and make a choice to believe.

I think that's the crux: like Dylan sings: "how be it we are so deceived
When the truth’s in our hearts and we still don’t believe?" But I don't have it in me. I can't feel it. However, when I put on that song, like I did just before I wrote this reply, I get the feeling that everything bad in my life can be turned into something good; that I have the power to change it. Is that God shining his light on me? Or is that just the definitive evidence that Dylan is the most powerful, most convincing singer of all time, when he can make me feel that way? Is it lyrics about God or Knopfler's guitar? I'm glad you take this seriously, because I thought you were going to laugh at me. But you're right, I'm probably too rational to believe in something like God. And I think I should be glad about it. I mean, the feeling of a God watching over you can be comforting, but I feel like I would be fooling myself.

Have you looked up the songs? There are more on this album. Beautiful lyrics aside (I'm really glad you took the time to read them), the power is in the singing. I know, his voice is 'ugly', but it's authentic and passionate and that makes it resonating.

[littlefuzzy]

Wow, a reasoned discourse by two people with opposing points of view, without resorting to arguments and name-calling! I kind of miss seeing stuff like that on DVDizzy!

[Dr Frankenollie]

Ladies and gentlemen, I hand you over to the finest 'YouTuber' online, who puts across anti-religious arguments much better than I can, and in a hilarious way too. Admittedly, he is a bit offensive at one point in this specific video but skip to the middle if you dislike the beginning:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFLFEtUunqg

[Disney Duster]

lol thanks littlefuzzy

Goliath, what you say about Dylan and your relationship with his music is pretty cool, and now I get more of it. What you said about your work, and what you said earlier, and those Dylan lyrics I quoted, all remind me of the play and later film Glengarry Glen Ross, which you may like if you wanted to check it out. It's about working for a living and through these guys who's lives are about sales, you think about what really matters in life and how it shouldn't be like that. It was made in the 80's when "the life" really seemed about buying stuff for a while.

But this isn't what turns me to religion. I blieve because I believe, and because I think it's good to believe in, and I think it makes sense, even if not aaalll of it seems to.

I had believed in God for pretty much my whole life, doubted it, but I actually came to so strongly believing by lots of logic. I was just thinking about how science explains how things come together but not where it came from, like describing the processes of things but not how those things got here at all, and just how life feels too amazing to be all science or a rational mind can describe. But I also thought beyond logic, too, to arrive at belief in God. It's just, there is more that exists in life besides logic or rationality, so why not use it all?

I have flip-flopped on if what I am feeling is God, or something else, or if I'm feeling anything at all. A very over-thinking mind can do that. But I made a choice. I thought, why not believe I'm feeling God, the better thing to believe in instead of believing it's nothing. The feeling of God isn't neccessarily supposed to feel like something more than what you always have felt. It may be believing that what you've always felt, all in life, God is behind. It's kind of like saying your body is only full of chemicals verses thinking your feelings are more special, something part of a soul. I think it's like that. It's like believing...well, God made Bob Dylan, and inspired Bob Dylan's religious songs, didn't he? And you will feel more when you make the choice to believe. Believing is feeling, it's not ojust feeling is believing.

I absolutely understand the idea of not feeling smart, of feeling like a fool, if you believe in something that seems so unlikely when viewed rationally, especially in a competitive world with everyone trying to be smartest and most successful. I know the feeling. But you're obviously smart, and you must think Dylan is, and you both can believe. Why not have it all, your knowledge, logic, great posts, and belief?

I don't think we are here for anything other than to enjoy life. Why do we, ourselves, make anything? Even the sad parts of movies can be seen as good and enjoyable in some high way. I can see Heaven being like that, just loving and enjoying what exists, forever, not caring about anything else. That feels like it to me. I mean, when we are in the middle of being happy, do we really go "what's the point/purpose?" No, happiness is the point.

And I am sorry, but I really can't go looking for Dylan's songs to download. I have too many things I want to do that I don't think I can ever all do. But if I was provided the songs, or a link to the (computer safe!) downloads, I'd listen. I sorta realize how great Dylan is, but he's like an artist I can respect more than one I'd play often.

[Goliath]

Disney Duster, I was mistaken. The songs mentioned above *are* on YouTube, as are the others songs on the album. I think they must've slipped under the radar of his managers, because usually his songs get pulled fast. I suspect they're still on because they're not well-known. So you could check them out if you want to (the original album versions).

After Slow Train Coming (1979), he made two more religious albums, with gospel music. I've never heard those, but I read they were pretty badly reviewed because they contained lots of strict religious dogma. That's a part of religion I never liked. I don't know if it's true what you say, that God inspired Dylan to write and record religious songs. It's interesting how he had always used Christian imagery in his songs long before his conversion. But was it devine inspiration? Or was he just going through a hard phase in life and did he only think he had visions which were never there, maybe because he wanted to comfort himself? I don't know. I don't think he knows. I know his fans turned on him for embracing Christianity. For years, they had said he was a prophet and he denied it; then he started acting like one, spreading the word of Christ, and they said he wasn't a prophet.

In the end, I still don't believe in God. At least not the Christian God. I *know* too much about the origins of Christianity and the Bible to have any faith in it. To me, the stories in the Bible are on the same level as Greek, Roman and much older mythology: they are all tales about the origins of the world and man, written by people who didn't know enough and thus made things up. I can't give a rational explanation as to why Roman mythology is considered 'fiction', while stories about a woman created from a man's rib, and a man living inside a whale etc. are 'the truth'. I don't see any difference. So why would I believe in one over the other? And Jesus? As far as I know, he was one of many prophets in Nazareth, and early Christians were seen by most people as a creepy sectarian club, a kind of cult. So what's the difference between Christianity and a cult? Christianity has more followers? And which Christians are 'right'? Catholics? Protestants? Mormons? All those divisions just tell me religion is the work of men, not Gods.

In 1980, at the Grammy Awards, Dylan sung 'Gotta Serve Somebody', the opening track of Slow Train Coming. This song became a huge hit. John Lennon parodied it with a song called 'Serve Yourself', criticizing Dylan's adherence to (religious) authority, when he had been fighting against it before. Characteristically of Dylan's performances, the song played live sounds nothing like the album version:

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