Tangled Discussion Part VI: Let the Drama continue...

[Tristy]

Cute picture!

[Wonderlicious]

That's a good picture! Who did it?

[ajmrowland]

[Elladorine]

That's a good picture! Who did it?

http://bri-chan.deviantart.com/

[Disney's Divinity]

I think it's true that both films borrow a lot of elements from Disney movies of the past. I just think PatF was a lot more 'in your face' about it. It felt louder, it felt like it was screaming to the audience: "this is a 1990's musical!". It's hard to put my finger on exactly why that is, but I cannot explain it any other way.

Of course you're allowed to have that opinion, and there are definitely reasons to support it, but I've also given a detailed response before about why I think the film feels more like something from the '80s or even the '70s, than the '90s. Perhaps the only thing in Tangled that really jumped out at me in that "been there before" feeling was the ending, which felt taken directly out of B&tB. Besides that, most of the other aspects were superficial (the same way I feel about TP&TF's similarities to the '90s). I just don't like to see one movie criticized for it and the other not.

Really?! I like how the relationship between Rapunzel and Flynn develops slowly and naturally, while Naveen (and thus the audience!) gets beaten over the head with the message that he has to "grow up" to be able to match Tiana. He gets lectured and 'educated' by Tiana time after time. That felt very forced. Flynn didn't need that. He was strong enough a character to develop himself. Maybe it also helps that Rapunzel was a much more likable character than Tiana. I have often praised Tiana for being a true feminist, independent character, but her preachy and serious side was often too much. Rapunzel simply had more charm than Tiana; and Flynn has more appeal than Naveen. Basically, Flynn has more backstory than Naveen (who is very one-dimensional) and Rapunzel has a much more emotional quest than Tiana (who is only after her restaurant). That combination makes their relationship a thousand times better than Tiana and Naveen's. IMHO of course.

I disagree about that (apparently). To me, Naveen and Tiana grew very slow indeed. It's all the way to just before "Dig A Little Deeper" before they stop completely hating each other. I love the fire scene where Tiana stops looking for the worst in Naveen, and realizes that he's a product of his upbringing (just like she is). Which is where I completely disagree about the Flynn vs. Naveen thing, because Naveen is given a fairly decent amount of backstory (for a prince), due to his being spoiled, cut off from his parents, and incapable of taking care of himself. Flynn mentions that he emulated a story book figure he grew up with as a child because his family didn't have anything, but...I don't understand how that qualifies as more depth? It doesn't quite affect the story at all, and it's given about the same amount of screen time as Naveen's explanation for "how he is." And, in both cases, that admission brings the two couples together. (It's the main reason I complained after first seeing the movie that Rapunzel and Flynn's fireside chat functioned the exact same as Tiana and Naveen's fireside chat).

I've never gotten the sense that Tiana tries to "reform" Naveen. I think the only person who attempts to reform him is Mama Odie, but only because she believes he would be happier with Tiana. Tiana's preachiness comes from being at the bottom of the social ladder, not being able to get anywhere when she works 24/7, and seeing losers like Naveen get everything without doing anything. Also out of a need to protect her friend (Charlotte) who she believes Naveen is going to marry for selfish reasons (and he was, to get money from his parents). That's a genuine part of her character, and there's nothing wrong with a protagonist who is cyncial (versus Rapunzel's naivete). Btw, I have to totally disagree that Rapunzel's quest is more emotional than Tiana's. The entire drive for the restaurant is based on her love for her dead father, who tried to have dreams in a society that acts against any chance he wanted to move forward. Which is why, at every point, when Tiana talks about her restaurant--it always comes back to her father. To understand the love he had in his family is one of the more emotional quests, imo, that a Disney character has had. More importantly, Tiana actually manages to grow as a character by the end. I won't argue that Rapunzel's tale wasn't emotional, because it was, but it's very hard for me to understand the argument that Tiana's wasn't.

Personally, I've always felt Rapunzel/Flynn and Tiana/Naveen had basically the same dynamic. I just felt more enthusiasm for Tiana and Naveen as characters than I did Flynn. And, if it had to come to ranking, I did like Tiana more than Rapunzel, though I enjoy them both.

As for charm/appeal, for me a lot of it comes down to the actors. I've always felt Bruno Campos' delivery for Flynn was far and above Zachary Levi's for Flynn. There's an enthusiasm there that makes me enjoy the film as much as I do. I've never been crazy about Mandy Moore, but she does a good job with Rapunzel. But I think the same of Anika Noni Rose with Tiana. To me, they are very different characters, but both equally likable and charming.

My only problem with the 3D is that there didn't seem any particular reason for doing it in 3D other than...to do a 3D film. [...]

Oh come on, you're just showing your prejudice here! No way the hair and the lantern scene and the sequences with the escape from the guards and bandits (before they almost drown) could have been done in 2D and still have that spectacular effect. I would say this is your 2D-bias speaking. And I believe pap64 was referring to these kinds of reasonings.

I already said that this was in reference to how the movie began, not how the final product ended up being. Glen Keane managed to use the 3D to do something that couldn't be done in 2D, but I honestly don't think he started the movie thinking "this can't be done in 2D." Which is why I said that: I'm not biased against the idea of a 3D film, but these days it seems like companies just want everything to be in 3D for the sake of 3D--regardless of whether the story and effects would lend themselves best to 3D. If they do, great--but that's not usually what the companies care about in the beginning. Which is depressing because it seems like the 2D option gets completely taken out of the equation that way.

And I agree with pap64, that the same could be said about 2D films. The reason I'm not saying it is because we'll never be in a position (again) where people automatically assume that a film must be in 2D again. Whenever 2D is used from now on, there'll be extensive debate of why and it'll most likely take a lot of work to get a studio to make it. Which, at the moment, isn't the case with 3D.

Glen Keane managed to use the 3D to emphasize the hair and the lantern scene, but that's not the intention the movie began with it all. Still, I'm open to variety--I'm particularly looking forward to Reboot Ralph, which I've known from the beginning will be 3D. The difference is that the film's storyline seems to gel with 3D, but a musical fairy tale doesn't (and I still feel that way, even if I'm the minority, though the animation was well-done in Tangled; a lot of the theatrical side of the singing looked ridiculous in 3D whereas it would have been smoothed out in 2D).

That's only your opinion (I know, that's why this is a discussion forum!). Why does the singing look ridiculous in 3D? Because you have an unsupported bias against 3D. Maybe it's subconscious and you don't know about it. But that's what I get from your post. Because in *no way* does 3D limit itself to specific genres. If you want to animated a fairytale in 3D, why shouldn't that medium work? There's no argument behind your statement.

I honestly don't believe I have an "unsupported bias against 3D." I'll admit--as I have before--that 2D will always be my favorite (and I have both legitimate and nostalgic reasons for that), but I have enjoyed many 3D films, too--Monsters, Inc., Meet the Robinsons, Bolt, Ratatouille, Kung Fu Panda, How To Train Your Dragon, the Toy Story's, Coraline, etc. And even movies like Alice in Wonderland and Avatar (which aren’t “3D” films exactly) are absolutely beautiful. The only problem I ever have with 3D films (or 3D in films) is the sense that when I go back to them after 10 years, that they don’t/won't stand up to the present (the same goes for video games). Some don’t even feel up to it the moment they’re released, like with The Polar Express or Mars Needs Moms (both motion capture, I know), and many Dreamworks films. Whereas I don’t get that with 2D. I might look at Mermaid or Snow White and say, “That’s clearly not as well-done as in Pinocchio or Pocahontas,” but they never look “outdated,” if that makes any sense.

You honestly believe that none of Gothel's mannerisms in "Mother Knows Best" look ridiculous? I'm specifically thinking of the "skip the drama" scenes, and later (in the reprise) she does this overdramatic exit. It just comes across silly to me. Honestly, I have a very specific bias against any musical (live-action or, in this case, 3D) that isn't hand-drawn, because they always come across somewhat absurd with the way the people move (see West-Side Story, ). The craziness, over-the-top actions often look silly when real people/forms are doing them (to me, anyway). And that is an argument--a very subjective one.

Also, I feel the need to point out that I did say "I'm offering criticism of this 3D musical, and not every 3D film or 3D musical that exists (or will exist)."

I'm not sure why we have to assume the worst about the people/posts we read. In some cases, I know I do the same thing (especially in political threads, where you already know what's underlying some particularly offensive statements), but I try not to do it over movies which become as subjective as they do.

Edit: 2 days later... *crickets* Didn't mean to bomb the Tangled thread. To be fair, I do this to other threads, like TBC or SW, too.

[DancingCrab]

[Super Aurora]

*image snip*

Spider-Girl, Spider-Girl
Does whatever a Spider-Girl does...

Oh that's by Brianna who mostly known for her AlicexHatter shipping and that Disney Princess silly face pic. Pretty good drawer. I'm surprise she doesn't come here considering she a big Disney fan.

[janesjubilee]

http://www.wdtimes.com/features/screen_ ... 03286.html
Apparently Nathan Greno and Bryon Howard are doing a new Tangled short.

Greno also disclosed that he and Howard are returning to the world of “Tangled” — only this time it will be in a much smaller dose.
“This is kind of new information that we haven’t really told the press yet, but the studio has asked us to do a ‘Tangled’ short,” Greno said. “Based on the success of the film, they want to see more of the characters.
“We have come up with a story for a short that we believe is great and really funny,” he added. “Again, it’s kind of a big action short. It’s all the stuff you loved from the movie kind of packed into this little five- or six-minute short. It’s going to be a good time. Maximus, Pascal and everybody, they are all back.”
Greno said the “Tangled” short should be completed by the end of the year but he doesn’t know when it will be released.

Sounds interesting...

[Sotiris]

Greno said the “Tangled” short should be completed by the end of the year but he doesn’t know when it will be released.

Thanks for the info!

If they're smart they'll release it in front of Reboot Ralph to capitalize on Tangled's success and promote the studio's new film.

Btw, from the same article:

Knowing the movie’s title needed to be altered, Greno and Howard came up with a list of approximately 300 new names to choose from. The directors must have had a serious case of extrasensory perception on that selection day because, without conferring with each other first, they both opted for the same title.

“Independent of one another, Nathan and I picked out the name ‘Tangled’ and it was amazing because out of all those names, both he and I keyed in on the same word,” Howard said.

“What we liked about that title was it sounded new, contemporary and different, and it also related to the relationships in the movie — the very tangled relationships and the tangled plot — and also, obviously, her hair,” he added. “We did like that it said this film isn’t what you are expecting, and that’s what we really wanted to try to get across to people when they went to see the film. It’s something that you will love, but it’s something new.”

“If our film was geared specifically toward any one group, I don’t think we would have been interested in working on it,” said Greno, a native of Kenosha. “Part of why we are at the studio is because Disney’s animated films do appeal to everyone. I remember going to see ‘Cinderella’ when I was a kid and I loved those little animal characters in it. I think that’s the way it sort of works with a great Disney film — if it turns out well, everyone will be able to watch the movie and everyone will be able to enjoy it.”

Greno and Howard are currently in the process of developing an original Disney film, but the two couldn’t reveal much more information than that — and it’s not because they have been sworn to secrecy.

“We’re not even being secretive about it,” Greno said, referring to the new movie. “The thing is, this time, it’s not a classic story that we’re taking and turning into a film. It’s an original idea, it’s an original world and it has original characters. So, we’re just figuring it all out. Ever since ‘Tangled’ got done, we’ve been working on it and it changes almost week to week. We’re always adding new things. What I can tell everyone is it’s a giant action movie. It has a lot of suspense and it’s a lot of fun. It’s also funny — the characters are going to be hilarious.

[SWillie!]

DancingCrab I LOVE that image! Thanks for posting!

[Super Aurora]

http://www.wdtimes.com/features/screen_ ... 03286.html
Apparently Nathan Greno and Bryon Howard are doing a new Tangled short.

Greno also disclosed that he and Howard are returning to the world of “Tangled” — only this time it will be in a much smaller dose.
“This is kind of new information that we haven’t really told the press yet, but the studio has asked us to do a ‘Tangled’ short,” Greno said. “Based on the success of the film, they want to see more of the characters.
“We have come up with a story for a short that we believe is great and really funny,” he added. “Again, it’s kind of a big action short. It’s all the stuff you loved from the movie kind of packed into this little five- or six-minute short. It’s going to be a good time. Maximus, Pascal and everybody, they are all back.”
Greno said the “Tangled” short should be completed by the end of the year but he doesn’t know when it will be released.

Sounds interesting...

Wonder if that means Rapunzel will keep the short brown hair, or get back the long blonde hair. Or her short brown hair grows bit longer.

[Semaj]

Her hair evidently doesn't grow back, so what can you really do with her besides spoil "happily ever after"?

A short about her growing up with Gothel, like those two comics shown a while ago would be the way to go.

[Scarred4life]

Yeah, if they don't keep her with the short brown hair, it will just be ridiculous. I think that a short from the past could work really well though.

[disneyprincess11]

http://www.wdtimes.com/features/screen_ ... 03286.html
Apparently Nathan Greno and Bryon Howard are doing a new Tangled short.

Greno also disclosed that he and Howard are returning to the world of “Tangled” — only this time it will be in a much smaller dose.
“This is kind of new information that we haven’t really told the press yet, but the studio has asked us to do a ‘Tangled’ short,” Greno said. “Based on the success of the film, they want to see more of the characters.
“We have come up with a story for a short that we believe is great and really funny,” he added. “Again, it’s kind of a big action short. It’s all the stuff you loved from the movie kind of packed into this little five- or six-minute short. It’s going to be a good time. Maximus, Pascal and everybody, they are all back.”
Greno said the “Tangled” short should be completed by the end of the year but he doesn’t know when it will be released.

Sounds interesting...

Wow, first TS3, now Tangled. Thanks for posting! Looking forward to it. Just hoping they wont make it too goofy....

[Goliath]

[...]I'm not sure why we have to assume the worst about the people/posts we read. In some cases, I know I do the same thing (especially in political threads, where you already know what's underlying some particularly offensive statements), but I try not to do it over movies which become as subjective as they do.

Edit: 2 days later... *crickets* Didn't mean to bomb the Tangled thread. To be fair, I do this to other threads, like TBC or SW, too.

Nah, just my usual weekend break. Don't think too much of yourself now.

The reason I was invoking (what I thought was) your (supposed) anti-3D bias, is because I really thought that was the reason you made some of your comments, like the fact that the movie could've been done in 2D. I usually don't make arguments like these, because most of time, they're irrelevant, but sometimes, when I *do* think they're the *actual* reason behind the 'official' reasoning, I point them out. (Even if I run the risk of being proven wrong.) I don't single you out. I've pointed to Duster's reasoning often, too, because I think his primal reason to trash everything new Disney does, is nostalgia. But he just doesn't want to admit that, so he makes up bullshit terms like "Disney Essence" etc. I could feel a similar vibe from your post. If I'm wrong, I'll immediately admit it. After all, all your arguments and reasoning make a lot of sense and I can't really argue any of them. We just disagree and like you said, that's only natural when it comes to something as subjective as taste.

Ok, sorry.

Like I said: I'm sorry if I came off rude. That wasn't my intention. You just happened to be the next person in a long line of people who quoted much too much text. I hope you don't feel unwelcome now on UD.

Yeah, if they don't keep her with the short brown hair, it will just be ridiculous. I think that a short from the past could work really well though.

It would be like the Genie losing his golden bracelets at the end of the movie, to signal he's free now... only to have them be back in all sequels and tv series.

[Scarred4life]

It would be like the Genie losing his golden bracelets at the end of the movie, to signal he's free now... only to have them be back in all sequels and tv series.

Did he really? I've never seen the sequels/tv series. Ugh. All that time spent making a movie and then they go off and essentially ruin it.

[Super Aurora]

Yeah, if they don't keep her with the short brown hair, it will just be ridiculous. I think that a short from the past could work really well though.

well her brown hair can grow right? She just won't have the ultra long blonde hair. but her brown could grow to at least chest length, right? :/


I just hate the short hair on her. look fugly.

[Elladorine]

It would be like the Genie losing his golden bracelets at the end of the movie, to signal he's free now... only to have them be back in all sequels and tv series.

Did he really? I've never seen the sequels/tv series. Ugh. All that time spent making a movie and then they go off and essentially ruin it.

I read somewhere ages ago that Genie was asked why he still had the bracelets, and he answered with, "It's a fashion statement!" somewhere in Return to Jafar. But for whatever reason they decided not to use it in the final movie.

[Heartless]

Yeah, if they don't keep her with the short brown hair, it will just be ridiculous. I think that a short from the past could work really well though.

well her brown hair can grow right? She just won't have the ultra long blonde hair. but her brown could grow to at least chest length, right? :/


I just hate the short hair on her. look fugly.

Nope, once the hair is cut, it loses bits power and cannot grow anymore. Remember how Rapunzel shows Flynn her little piece of hair that Gothel cut as a baby.. It turned brown and stopped growing.

[SWillie!]

The only problem with doing a short from the past before her hair was cut is that Flynn and Rapunzel would not have met yet.

I could see them working out a short that happens "during" the movie... something like a side adventure on their way to the kingdom, or during their time in the kingdom.

Although what I would really love to see is Rapunzel playing in the snow for the first time. With a song. But that's just my inner Disney Essense nerd.