Tangled Discussion Part VI: Let the Drama continue...

[Goliath]

I want to thank Disney's Divinity for his long, well-thought out and ultimately friendly message. I have never made a secret of the fact that I have never felt any animosity toward him and that I have always respected him and his opinions, even if I don't always agree with them. I regret the fact that I come across as aggressive to him. That is not my intention and never has been. Whenever I criticize or challenge people's opinions, it's never personal with me. Unless of course I'm attacked personally. I admit it: I don't have the character to take the high road; I pay back at equal force. That's not a good thing, but that's who am I. Things have gotten a bit out of control between Disney's Divinity and me recently and I regret that. I'm also sorry for derailing some threads.

Let's go back on-topic and respect each other's opinions, yet leave everybody room enough to criticize them without taking the criticism personally.

[SWillie!]

No actually i think they still would want you to buy it..
There are editions with digital copies......
What respected animator would say sure steal some thing i worked real hard on?

You obviously haven't met any animators. They are MUCH more concerned about studying and sharing knowledge about animation.

This wasn't actually a "what if?" This was a "this happened." A Disney artist that is a mentor of mine suggested this as a way to study the way that modern cg animation relates to classic hand-drawn animation, in order to better further MY animation. Seeing as that Tangled is one of the best examples of modern cg animation, I've already frame by framed the whole film. (Amazing, by the way)

Being a Disney fan, I still absolutely plan on buying the film. In fact, I've already pre-ordered the 3D Combo Pack. But as an animator I could care less about Disney getting it's money. And so could the people that worked on it. All artists would say the same thing. Do you really think Ollie Johnston and Frank Thomas and Milt Kahl, if they were still around, would NOT encourage students to study animation by any means possible?

My teachers use bootleg copies in class, for God's sake.

[Goliath]

Aaaah, it's good to see a new drama is quickly replacing the old drama...

How fast these things go.

[SWillie!]

Aaaah, it's good to see a new drama is quickly replacing the old drama...

How fast these things go.

Hahaha. Amen.

[amazon980]

Stealing is stealing :/

[SWillie!]

Stealing is stealing :/

You sound like an 8 year old that just learned that rule. The world is not black and white, my friend.

[amazon980]

I think that theres nothing you can say to change my mind ..
And theres nothing i can say to change yours .....
So let agree to disagree and move on?
i dont want to cause drama xD

[Goliath]

Stealing is stealing :/

[SWillie!]

I think that theres nothing you can say to change my mind ..
And theres nothing i can say to change yours .....
So let agree to disagree and move on?
i dont want to cause drama xD

No drama? But what else is there?

[HumorlessPoppycock]

The bookstore picture posted by DancingCrab reminded me of something I saw @ Den of Geek:

Off the back of its significant success in the US, Disney's latest animated feature, Tangled, arrives in the UK finally this weekend.
It's a lovely film, too, and a fitting one to be the studio's 50th official animated movie.

Perhaps with that in mind, though, the filmmakers have put a few little Easter eggs and nods to other Disney movies in there.
Take, for instance, the brief nod to Pinocchio in the pub scene. Or the homage to The Little Mermaid.
You might even see something not a million miles away from the rose in Beauty And The Beast, too...

..."Well, besides that Pinoochio is hidden in the pub," revealed Nathan Greno, "in the town in the kingdom, there's this book at the bookstore, where they're looking at a book together?
There's about a million things hidden in there."

"Once the Blu-ray comes out, it'll sharpen up. Freeze frame that and take a zoom around!" added Howard.
That said, it's possible to see a few tips of the hat on the big screen, but you need to be sharp to spot them!

Take a look, too, at Rapunzel's tower. "On the stairs that go up," says Greno, "there's these posts on the stairs, and on each one has a symbol for a different princess.
The one that you see most clearly, there's an apple at the bottom of the stairs for Snow White.
And then all the way up, you'll see a slipper for Cinderella, Mermaid, a rose..."

"I think we ran out of posts in the end!" says Howard.

I wish it was March 29th...

[disneyprincess11]

The bookstore picture posted by DancingCrab reminded me of something I saw @ Den of Geek:

Off the back of its significant success in the US, Disney's latest animated feature, Tangled, arrives in the UK finally this weekend.
It's a lovely film, too, and a fitting one to be the studio's 50th official animated movie.

Perhaps with that in mind, though, the filmmakers have put a few little Easter eggs and nods to other Disney movies in there.
Take, for instance, the brief nod to Pinocchio in the pub scene. Or the homage to The Little Mermaid.
You might even see something not a million miles away from the rose in Beauty And The Beast, too...

..."Well, besides that Pinoochio is hidden in the pub," revealed Nathan Greno, "in the town in the kingdom, there's this book at the bookstore, where they're looking at a book together?
There's about a million things hidden in there."

"Once the Blu-ray comes out, it'll sharpen up. Freeze frame that and take a zoom around!" added Howard.
That said, it's possible to see a few tips of the hat on the big screen, but you need to be sharp to spot them!

Take a look, too, at Rapunzel's tower. "On the stairs that go up," says Greno, "there's these posts on the stairs, and on each one has a symbol for a different princess.
The one that you see most clearly, there's an apple at the bottom of the stairs for Snow White.
And then all the way up, you'll see a slipper for Cinderella, Mermaid, a rose..."

"I think we ran out of posts in the end!" says Howard.

I wish it was March 29th...

How about we practice on this pic for now?



I see the Fairy Godmothers from Sleeping Beauty above the closet!

[Disney Duster]

I don't know how anyone couldn't think “I See the Light” was much better than Newman’s song, in fact I just left the room after only listening to his song for a while. However, that song about "Coming Home” Gwenyth sang did sound pretty good, and that other one "If I Rise" did, too, so if either of those one, I would have been okay with them. But Newman one, and I was reminded how Lasseter and Pixar have a giant hold on the academy, and is, afterall, on the committee.

Mandy Moore should have worn a purple dress that evoked Rapunzel a little more. Her blue one didn’t really make sense.

Disney’s Divinity, just to let you know, this is where I stand: though very hard to tell, Cinderella may have wanted love from her stepmother and Lady Tremaine may have lead her to think she could have it.

Frollo may have lead Quasimodo to think he was as loving a father as their could be and Quasimodo may have felt some happiness in love in thinking that a monster like him was at least cared for by a fatherly figure.

But in Rapunzel, I think Rapunzel does love Mother Gothel (Disney even officially says this), but she still is totally up for disobeying her and getting mad at her. A person can sometimes feel they hate and love their parents at the same time, can’t they? And I think Mother Gothel does also love Rapunzel, one reason being because she went on a three day trip to get special paint for her, but she just loves the magic hair above her, and that is most important to her. Basically I don’t think either has full-on love for the other, but some.

DisneyAnimation, there is getting back on track successfully, as in money, and getting back on track to who you are, your identity, your art. I think Disney is fully back on with the money, and half back on with their identity.

I didn’t think that Frollo was supposed to raise Quasimodo to make up for killing the mother, I thought he was supposed to do it because the baby was innocent and shouldn’t be killed, and needed protection, but I haven’t seen it in a while. I just don’t think Frollo could treat Quasimodo so much near a son, laying his arms on him, without some kind of feeling, and I don’t think Quasimodo could be raised by him without some kind of fond feeling. However, it’s nowhere near Rapunzel and Mother Gothel’s mother-daughter relationship, I know that.

But, given that Rapunzel is quite a short story, isn't that what Disney have done with Tangled, expanding and adding? The essential components of the fairy tale are there (the romance, the witch, the tower, the hair) but the roles have been changed and expanded while the music and supporting characters have been added.

Almost! But they did more than expand and add, they also changed their backgrounds extremely (also the background of the “magic flower” which was originally Rapunzel lettuce). That is the one thing Disney’s never done with the “real version of the story” (different from Princess and the Frog which was seen as a new story), but they broke it, for no good reason. I already provided a way of them keeping the movie as it is with the original backgrounds. If they just tried really hard they could have done a great movie like the past ones keeping the backgrounds the same but expanding the adventures, like so many past Disney films did.

Swillie, actually, even Kevin Lima, who directed Enchanted, said things like "not just any transformation, but a Disney transformation", and used terms like Disney transformation and Disney...other things, can't remember. But see, you and Escapay now know even a good, professional director for Disney has used terms like that, so me using words like Disney change and Disney essence are perfectly game!

Super Aurora, sensitivity and empathy are not your strongest points. I haven't pmed you like I was going to because I was busy, but also because I didn't feel so good about doing that when you just let Big One call me all he did, it was more than about opinions, you know. But now I'm less busy, which is why I'm here now and will pm you soon.

Big One, I still believe in the Disney Essence. The reason to believe in it is to believe that there is a reason fro the company to continue to make movies with the Disney name. To believe that something, an essence or…style, as you may prefer, that is not just in visuals, but subject, story, and feeling as well, that can be in all their films, carried from the first films to the new ones. That’s the reason. Otherwise their really is no point in making films with the Disney name.

I think Lady Tremaine tried to make it look like she might be a mother to Cinderella. That’s why I screencapped her “nice” smile to her, and then her “evil” smile later.

You also talked about Cinderella hating her stepmother all the time and showed a video. From that video I screencapped what I was talking about. Cinderella smiles and seems to try and reason with her stepmother, in a friendly, "maybe I can get her to like me" way. She gets shot down. When she gets barked at too much, she actually gives her stepmother a glare back, which was really interesting to me, like she wouldn’t do it or would fight back, so I screencapped that and it’s the second image. But Cinderella then lowers her head, feeling unable to fight back, or not wanting to.



The thing about Sleeping Beauty’s changes is they follow the kind of expanding or cutting down that Disney did in all previous fairy tale films or other films. They cut the Queen’s tries to kill Snow White from3 to 1, they cut Cinderella’s trips to the ball from 2 to 1, and they expanded the mice from, like, 6, to a lot, and so with Sleeping Beauty they cut the number of fairies from 13 to 3 and the number of years of sleep from 100 to 1 day. And yet they also mentioned that Maleficent plans to keep her asleep for 100 years and let Phillip out when he’s too old, so it’s still kind of in there. And of course, the main thing: none of that is changing the characters’ backgrounds! The main character is still a princess with her name, she was raised a peasant but her background wasn’t changed a peasant (and by the way her being raised as a peasant could be taken from the part of the story where her children are hid from the Prince’s ogress mother-in-law in the cook’s cottage in the woods). As for the “second half” of the story, that, too, is cutting down like they did in the past! And if I must, I will point out that Disney said they based Cinderella and Sleeping Beauty on the French versions but they also borrowed from the German versions, taking the thorns, the kiss, and the story ending after the wake-up, from the Grimm’s. Rapunzel only has a German version that is well-known, no other versions are well-known and considered the “real versions” like the German and French versions were in Walt’s time, and still are today.

You also wanted the evidence of when Disney called The Princess and the Frog and Tangled "twists", which had never been done before by Disney or Walt himself before. Click here for the Tangled press release which says it has a "modern twist" and then the Princess and the Frog trailer said "everyone thinks they know the story of the Princess and the Frog" meaning they were changing the story, but their were also commercials, other trailers, and other advertising that said it had a twist (if you don't believe me about those, it was hard for me to find them on Youtube, but you could try yourself, but at least I know I was right while you can think whatever you want). I am less concerned about The Princess and the Frog though, because it is like a brand new story, not set in the same time as the original story.

The thing about Pinocchio and Fantasia…if you mean Walt would want mature movies like that, then I would agree with you, but if you mean he would one way more mature stuff, like guns and violent aliens…like Lilo & Stitch, then I do not agree. However, maybe Lilo & Stitch could have simply been toned down to be more Disney friendly.

[PatrickvD]

and I was reminded how Lasseter and Pixar have a giant hold on the academy, and is, afterall, on the committee.

I love how a company's management style is (through rumors and internet chatter) turned into this narrative of an evil villain scheming to rig award shows and plotting some corporate take over.

It's so ridiculous.

[SpringHeelJack]

and I was reminded how Lasseter and Pixar have a giant hold on the academy, and is, afterall, on the committee.

I love how a company's management style is (through rumors and internet chatter) turned into this narrative of an evil villain scheming to rig award shows and plotting some corporate take over.

It's so ridiculous.

I keep envisioning "Revenge of the Sith" in my head with John Lasseter as Palpatine spitting "I AM the Academy!"

BECAUSE THEY CONTROL IT ALL.

Mandy Moore should have worn a purple dress that evoked Rapunzel a little more. Her blue one didn’t really make sense.

I mean... you know she wasn't really supposed to represent Rapunzel, right? That's like saying "her hair really should have been blonde and thirty feet long in the spirit of the movie."

But they did more than expand and add, they also changed their backgrounds extremely (also the background of the “magic flower” which was originally Rapunzel lettuce). That is the one thing Disney’s never done with the “real version of the story” (different from Princess and the Frog which was seen as a new story), but they broke it, for no good reason. I already provided a way of them keeping the movie as it is with the original backgrounds. If they just tried really hard they could have done a great movie like the past ones keeping the backgrounds the same but expanding the adventures, like so many past Disney films did.

But it's still hardly the first Disney movie to futz with the origins "for no good reason." I mean, look at "Aladdin." His mom is dead and he's an orphan. A little different, I think. Belle is not the daughter of a once-wealthy sea merchant who is sent to the castle because her dad picked a rose. Cinderella's dad isn't some doddering dope hanging around who sits there while she's treated as a servant. The origin there is still different from the movie but it works. That's why it's an adaptation. I don't see why changing the origins is a bad thing, but anything else is just part of how things work.

The thing about Pinocchio and Fantasia…if you mean Walt would want mature movies like that, then I would agree with you, but if you mean he would one way more mature stuff, like guns and violent aliens…like Lilo & Stitch, then I do not agree. However, maybe Lilo & Stitch could have simply been toned down to be more Disney friendly.

This I still don't get. It's exaggerated cartoon violence. I doubt any kid there for a minute is seriously thinking Lilo's going to get it between the eyes when Jumba is running around with a space blaster that shoots green balls or something. Do you get offended when Sykes has a gun in "Oliver & Company"? Or when Bambi's mom gets, you know, shot? Or when Old Yeller is put down? Isn't that violence or guns?

[pap64]

Heh, does that mean that in the 90s when Eisner was in charge he took control of the Academy Awards because they loved the fab four movies and they always won awards?

But anyways...

PIXAR IS EVUL!!!!!! THEY BRAINWASHED THE ACADEMY AWARDS INTO NOMINATING THEIR MOVIES ONLY!!!!

[pinkrenata]

Disney Duster -- I thought of you yesterday! I was subbing for a group of fourth graders and we were looking at a fairly traditional Rapunzel picture book and Lon Po Po (a Chinese version of Little Red Riding Hood) and I was talking about how there are lot of different versions of fairy tales, blah blah blah. The kids were supposed to used a Venn Diagram to compare and contrast the two stories and a kid got very confused and wanted to know whether or not Rapunzel is a princess. "She was in <i>Tangled!</i>," he said.

Anyway, yeah. I figured you'd have a lot to say in response.

[estefan]

I don't know how anyone couldn't think “I See the Light” was much better than Newman’s song

Actually, it is possible. It's called having an opinion.

[Rapunzel]

To Rapunzel and Animalia, I actually like that concept of Flynn flipping through a book. For me, it would almost be combination of old Disney introductions with "new" Disney introductions, so there would almost be some kind of middle ground there.

Yes! I think it would have married both concepts quite nicely.

[Dream Huntress]

To Rapunzel and Animalia, I actually like that concept of Flynn flipping through a book. For me, it would almost be combination of old Disney introductions with "new" Disney introductions, so there would almost be some kind of middle ground there.

Yes! I think it would have married both concepts quite nicely.

But that's been done before, in Shrek.

[Super Aurora]

ISuper Aurora, sensitivity and empathy are not your strongest points. I haven't pmed you like I was going to because I was busy, but also because I didn't feel so good about doing that when you just let Big One call me all he did, it was more than about opinions, you know. But now I'm less busy, which is why I'm here now and will pm you soon.

Refresh my memory? I don't know what you're talking about, honestly.

take time on pm.

I think Lady Tremaine tried to make it look like she might be a mother to Cinderella. That’s why I screencapped her “nice” smile to her, and then her “evil” smile later.

You also talked about Cinderella hating her stepmother all the time and showed a video. From that video I screencapped what I was talking about. Cinderella smiles and seems to try and reason with her stepmother, in a friendly, "maybe I can get her to like me" way. She gest shot down. When she gets barked at too much, she actually gives her stepmother a glare back, which was really interesting to me, like she wouldn’t do it or would fight back, so I screencapped that and it’s the second image. But Cinderella then lowers her head, feeling unable to fight back, or not wanting to.

I dunno, it look to me in that screenshot, she make a fake ass smile in the sense of "ok let me see if I get of of this shit by smiling nicely and politely. Hope she'll let me off this time."
then in the next shot, she like, "Fuck, that didn't work. What a bitch."