Walt Disney: Hollywood's Dark Prince!

[DisneyAnimation88]

Thanks, I'll look into the book and see if there's an English translation on the internet.

Here in Britain, Channel 4 is certainly one of the more frank and honest channels on television, though it's honesty on some matters could be disputed. It can sometimes be provocative but it has broadcast some enlightening documentaries and dramas based on religion, war and politics, subjects other channels simply don't go near. I don't think this documentary sets out to demonise Disney but, as with a lot of Channel 4 programming, it tries to show the public a different side of things we sometimes take at first value. It certainly proves Walt's history with communinsm and his activism against it. Other things I'm sceptical of but can accept could contain some truth. My problem with the book is that it is too extreme to be believable. I can't believe Walt Disney molested his daughter and had some sort of perverse fixation with Bobby Driscoll. I don't believe everything I read about Walt but this book, I personally believe, is mostly fictitious slander without any hard evidence to back it up.

[Goliath]

Thanks, I'll look into the book and see if there's an English translation on the internet.

Good luck, but I don't think you'll find any translation. That book has been my first step into learning more about the man and company behind the animated films I loved so much. One problem I have with the book is that it doesn't list any sources. After having read American publications about the Disney Company that were published earlier, I could see how Van Willigen had borrowed a lot from those to write his own book. He doesn't vilify Walt, but he does paint a picture of a very conservative, moralistic man who is short-tempered and curses all the time --when there are no cameras around. But Van Willigen never makes claims about anti-semitism, racism or something as outrageous as pedophelia.

Are those claims, as listed by Jackoleen, really in the book 'Hollywood's Dark Prince'? Because I have the feeling there are as many myths about that book as there are myths about Walt Disney, ironically.

[Elladorine]

Are those claims, as listed by Jackoleen, really in the book 'Hollywood's Dark Prince'? Because I have the feeling there are as many myths about that book as there are myths about Walt Disney, ironically.

It's been over 15 years since I've read it, but as far as I can recall, yes.

[pinkrenata]

Didn't everyone pretty much have to be a communist hater in the '40s so as not to be mistaken as a sympathizer?

[Rudy Matt]

Well, I would find it hard to believe that a high-quality channel like Channel Four, with a high-standing reputation, would air just a bunch of rumors and sensationalized stories without making sure its integrity is intact.

ROFLMAO. The British Media thrives on sensationalized garbage. And Melendez was a stone-cold communist himself who blamed Walt Disney for the collapse of the UPA studio, so I take anything he has to say with a huge grain of salt.

[BelleGirl]

Well, I would find it hard to believe that a high-quality channel like Channel Four, with a high-standing reputation, would air just a bunch of rumors and sensationalized stories without making sure its integrity is intact.

ROFLMAO. The British Media thrives on sensationalized garbage. And Melendez was a stone-cold communist himself who blamed Walt Disney for the collapse of the UPA studio, so I take anything he has to say with a huge grain of salt.

And several reviewers from 'quality' newspapers took 'Hollywood's Dark Prince' serious.

Never underestimate people's ability to lie and make it sound like the truth!

Goliath,

Maybe you should read 'The Animated Man' for a decent bio of Walt. (if you'r interested of course) It's certainly not true that Walt's father Elias beat him all the time when he was a kid. Yes, he was somewhat strict and sober but on page 15 of TAM you can read a quote from Roy: "A good dad,", Roy said. "So I don't like him put in the light of being a brutal or mean dad ,that he was not." There are more quotations on this page about Elias by other family members that confirm he was a good man.

My conclusion: Marc Eliot (the author of "Hollywood's Dark Prince") manufactured (or just believed rumours about) the story of the 'abusive father'.

[DisneyAnimation88]

I don't think I've ever read any quotes from Walt that would make me think he was abused by his father in the way this book suggests. I know Walt was in South America when his father died and didn't return to America for the funeral though there are conflicting reasons for this in various biographies; some say Walt chose not to go due to the difficult relationship he had had with his father while others say Walt wanted to go but it would have been impossible for him to make it home from South America in time. A strict father isn't necessarily an abusive one, despite what Marc Elliot seems to think.

I never knew Bill Melendez was a communist. If that's true, it does make me question the reliability of some of the things he says in the documentary.

[Goliath]

Maybe you should read 'The Animated Man' for a decent bio of Walt. (if you'r interested of course) It's certainly not true that Walt's father Elias beat him all the time when he was a kid. Yes, he was somewhat strict and sober but on page 15 of TAM you can read a quote from Roy: "A good dad,", Roy said. "So I don't like him put in the light of being a brutal or mean dad ,that he was not." There are more quotations on this page about Elias by other family members that confirm he was a good man.

I'm not saying that's not true. But consider the source. Families don't like to hang out their dirty laundry. They rather keep it inside. Family members are partial and may have something to gain by portraying one of their own better than he was. I'm not here to cast Walt Disney or his family as mean people (because I'm sure some fanboy/apologist will accuse me of that), but it surprises me that so many people are like: "oh well, Walt/Roy said such-and-such, so that settles it". Very puzzling. I'm curious to read that biography. But some people on this forum have to start realizing that the 'Uncle Walt' image was just PR.

Didn't everyone pretty much have to be a communist hater in the '40s so as not to be mistaken as a sympathizer?

But you didn't have to be a 'friendly witness' for the HUAC and you didn't have to rat out your colleagues.

Not that it really should matter. After all, I thought the US was a free country with freedom of expression? Not during the McCarthy era...

ROFLMAO. The British Media thrives on sensationalized garbage. And Melendez was a stone-cold communist himself who blamed Walt Disney for the collapse of the UPA studio, so I take anything he has to say with a huge grain of salt.

Source? (For both, please?) And what has the fact that Melendez supposedly was a communist have to do with his claims that Walt made anti-semitic comments?

I never knew Bill Melendez was a communist. If that's true, it does make me question the reliability of some of the things he says in the documentary.

I don't remember all things he said in the documentary, but I posted it here because he's one of several people who say Walt made anti-semitic remarks. I wouldn't know how that account became less reliable if Melendez was a communist? And we'll have to wait for Rudy Matt to come up with a source for that.

[DisneyAnimation88]

For me, I was sceptial of what Melendez said before; I can't really put my finger on the reason why it's just an instinctual feeling where I question how true some of the things he recounts are. Like Walt flying into a rage when some animators supposedly asked that they be given main credit for their work; if you work for the Walt Disney studio, the work is released under the studio name. I know Walt had a temper, but did he fly into tantrums as regularly as Melendez suggests he did in front of his staff?

I don't think the documentary is full of lies and I'm not someone who believes that Walt was perfect and had no faults. But I have trouble believing some of the things Melendez says. Perhaps that is naive of me but it's more of an instinctual feeling than a logical one.

To answer your question if, strictly hypothetically, Melendez was a communist and Walt was anti-communist, the conclusion I jumped to was that perhaps Melendez had a bit of an agenda when recounting his memories of Walt. I'm probably wrong but that was my reaction when I wrote that post; Like I said I came to that conclusion quite quickly and should have looked for more information before I said it but there you go.

[BelleGirl]

Maybe you should read 'The Animated Man' for a decent bio of Walt. (if you'r interested of course) It's certainly not true that Walt's father Elias beat him all the time when he was a kid. Yes, he was somewhat strict and sober but on page 15 of TAM you can read a quote from Roy: "A good dad,", Roy said. "So I don't like him put in the light of being a brutal or mean dad ,that he was not." There are more quotations on this page about Elias by other family members that confirm he was a good man.

I'm not saying that's not true. But consider the source. Families don't like to hang out their dirty laundry. They rather keep it inside. Family members are partial and may have something to gain by portraying one of their own better than he was. I'm not here to cast Walt Disney or his family as mean people (because I'm sure some fanboy/apologist will accuse me of that), but it surprises me that so many people are like: "oh well, Walt/Roy said such-and-such, so that settles it". Very puzzling. I'm curious to read that biography. But some people on this forum have to start realizing that the 'Uncle Walt' image was just PR.

I was half expecting that you would come up with the "family doesn't want to hang out their dirty laundry" argument. But Roy was probably responding to (malicious) gossip about his father and wanted to set things straight. If three family members confirm that Elias was a good man, why trust a sensationalist writers with outrageous claims over them? Any way, "The animated man" looks as a well-researched work, icluding endnotes and list of consulted sources.

By the way, my apologies for my language error: "muanufactured" shoudh of course have been "fabricated".

[Goliath]

I was half expecting that you would come up with the "family doesn't want to hang out their dirty laundry" argument. But Roy was probably responding to (malicious) gossip about his father and wanted to set things straight. If three family members confirm that Elias was a good man, why trust a sensationalist writers with outrageous claims over them? Any way, "The animated man" looks as a well-researched work, icluding endnotes and list of consulted sources.

Have I become that predictable? But, like I said, I'm not here to defend sensationalist writers; just pointing out how important it is to not automatically draw conclusions because a Disney said such-and-such.

To answer your question if, strictly hypothetically, Melendez was a communist and Walt was anti-communist, the conclusion I jumped to was that perhaps Melendez had a bit of an agenda when recounting his memories of Walt.

That's a very good point, but I don't know that Melendez was a communist, so I asked Rudy Matt to back up that claim. I'm very curious what Rudy Matt means when he says Melendez was a "communist". I know Matt once said I was a "communist" because I didn't object to downloading copyrighted media. If *that* makes one a "communist" in Matt's eyes, I'm curious to know what Melendez did/said to make Matt think he was a communist. Maybe he was just a vocal and ardent supporter of forming unions (like I am)? Walt thought people who wanted to form unions were "communists"...

[DisneyAnimation88]

I've looked for more information on the internet and come across nothing so far that says Melendez was actually a communist. Any connection to communism seems to be linked to Melendez's involvement in the strike at Disney and later his role as president of the Screen Cartoonists Guild. From what I've read, and taking into account the unreliability of the internet, it seems to me that Melendez was deemed a communist as he was so active in the industry unions. At least that's the impression i get from this particular article.

http://deneroff.com/blog/2008/09/05/bill-melendez/

Perhaps Rudy Matt has information that I haven't come across yet. But as someone who seems to have been tagged with the stigma of being a supposed communist, I can't help but think Walt's testimony against alleged communists, particularly Herb Sorrell who is mentioned in the article, has maybe contibuted to Melendez's negative recollections of his time at Disney, which was relatively brief. I don't know if that's the case, that's just my personal observation.