Disney Blu Ray : Diamond Edition, current and future plan

[MJW]

I still see no reason why movies like Hercules hasn't been reissued and movies like Black Cauldron go straight to DVD in an age like this when animation is supposed to be their only go-to.

I agree, especially in terms of Hercules and all of the 90's Renaissance films. I know Blu-ray is a relatively new format, but Disney is almost treating it like it's completely unstable and still "testing the waters" with releases, almost expecting them not to sell or something.

Plus, with releasing certain films strictly to DVD when a Blu-ray/DVD combo could be released, I think the company is slipping into dangerous waters by almost giving themselves imaginary "self-assurance" that some titles are not good sellers. For example, Disney releases The Black Cauldron exclusively to DVD, and it doesn't sell like hotcakes because A) it's a lesser known film to start with and B) half the potential buyers are holding out for a combo pack. Instead of seeing the reality of the situation, Disney comes to the conclusion that no one wants to buy The Black Cauldron, period. This, in turn, either severly delays or kills any potential Blu-ray release that might have been on the horizon (if it ever was in the first place).

Initially, I was hoping we'd get a scenario like Alice in Wonderland for The Black Cauldron, with a Blu combo following not long after a DVD only, even though I know TBC's popularity is NO WHERE NEAR Alice. Lowry did a complete restoration of the film and although I am not sure if that means it's also HD ready, why waste all that on a DVD only release???

I have almost all of the DAC's that were released on VHS, but I wasn't seriously following Disney as they released the films to DVD. Were the first few years of DVD releases like this, with slow releases, before we got the onslaught of all the lesser known films (Gold Classics Collection)?

[BK]

I still see no reason why movies like Hercules hasn't been reissued and movies like Black Cauldron go straight to DVD in an age like this when animation is supposed to be their only go-to.

I agree, especially in terms of Hercules and all of the 90's Renaissance films. I know Blu-ray is a relatively new format, but Disney is almost treating it like it's completely unstable and still "testing the waters" with releases, almost expecting them not to sell or something.

Plus, with releasing certain films strictly to DVD when a Blu-ray/DVD combo could be released, I think the company is slipping into dangerous waters by almost giving themselves imaginary "self-assurance" that some titles are not good sellers. For example, Disney releases The Black Cauldron exclusively to DVD, and it doesn't sell like hotcakes because A) it's a lesser known film to start with and B) half the potential buyers are holding out for a combo pack. Instead of seeing the reality of the situation, Disney comes to the conclusion that no one wants to buy The Black Cauldron, period. This, in turn, either severly delays or kills any potential Blu-ray release that might have been on the horizon (if it ever was in the first place).

Initially, I was hoping we'd get a scenario like Alice in Wonderland for The Black Cauldron, with a Blu combo following not long after a DVD only, even though I know TBC's popularity is NO WHERE NEAR Alice. Lowry did a complete restoration of the film and although I am not sure if that means it's also HD ready, why waste all that on a DVD only release???

I have almost all of the DAC's that were released on VHS, but I wasn't seriously following Disney as they released the films to DVD. Were the first few years of DVD releases like this, with slow releases, before we got the onslaught of all the lesser known films (Gold Classics Collection)?

The answer to your question would be no. When it rained, it flooded.

They initially released those limited, expensive 9? movie series which failed and all of which went OOP within 3 months.

They then decided to start the Gold Collection and released basically every non-Platinum title in a year's time. That was a colossal failure due to the terrible/non-existent features and dubious transfers. It evidently also hurt their sales badly.

When Snow White arrived they started properly reissuing the Gold Classics. (Between 1-2 years before the first one was reissued, either Dumbo, Alice, Pocahontas or Fox and the Hound I think.)

Still, they were treating their new movies fabulously, TENG, Tarzan, Dinosaur and Atlantis, yet of course it died after that. I think Eisner or someone decided against them. I guess it didn't help that the rise of CGI was here and Atlantis and Treasure Planet both performed badly. Home on the Range was the first new release to be treated badly and they've steadily gotten worse/stagnated with all their releases since then. Reissues that were not Pocahontas or Mulan or Platinums also were pointless. Hell, the Platinums dropped in quality as well.

Anyway, comparing it to Blu-Ray, Disney do really need to get their non-exclusive/limited-time-only movies out.

[BK]

I was wrong, it was four years before Mulan came out.

Also, I just read some interesting stuff about Blu-Con and how something like over half of movies before 1950 have deteriorated to nothingness.

It also had stated that studios promised output of catalogue would increase significantly over 2010. What is more interesting to me, is that I didn't see a single Disney executive there.

If all of the studios keep to their word and step up, I don't think there can be any more defense of Disney practices. The delayed Dumbo, Alice, Bambi and the Lion King won't cut it. If they do release Pocahontas and Fox and the Hound on Blu I might be weak enough to say they are fantastic again but similarly if Fox gets released on DVD only because it's not worthy for it's 30th anniversary, I will kill Disney and everyone else/the industry should.

I guess maybe why Disney weren't there to show-off might be because they don't have any pre-1990 live action films to show. Like I've said before they only have 3 pre-1990 titles anyway and all 3 will be OOP by January.

So, with all this caution on saving movies, and Disney being the richest studio of them all, (can you believe that and then the respect they show their catalogue/output) you'd think they would actually have put some effort into restoring their live action films. I did read on Wikipedia how Disney was yes, obviously, an animation studio before diversifying later on. Still, even when they did diversify they tried to keep up a G/PG image with everything being family-friendly, which I guess is why they hardly have any Oscar-calibre movies though having said that family-friendly movies can be Oscar-calibre. Anyway, they started getting into other genres in the 1980s with Touchstone and Hollywood Pictures, still there is no excuse not to have Mary Poppins or Treasure Island or any of the rest. I guess they may not be as well regarded but I'm sure there are some that are and Disney should try to put them out. I don't know how they were treated on DVD though. Exclusives? Non-releases? I also guess that since Disney only really became a top studio post-1950, or later during the 1980s, makes it more forgivable to not have output than other studios as they would have a smaller library and one that may be less-regarded.

Still, I do hope, even if I have never watched, and may not watch their old live-action movies, they do release some of them on Blu in 2011. I actually want Mary Poppins being that was the only one either than Sound of Music from Fox that I saw as a child, live-action wise, along with the rest of Disney animation and other animation.

[MJW]

I agree, it seems like the only thing we have to look forward to right now is the Diamond Edition and the few other titles (Fantasia, Alice, Dumbo) that they throw our way. It should not be like this! Where are all the 90's films, besides BATB, that brought Disney back to life? Aren't they worthy of anything? Even if they weren't blockbusters, they still deserve a fair chance and I'm sure they'll do better than mediocre in terms of sales on Blu-ray.

I understand Disney has a different way of releasing films than your average studio, with the vault and all that, but things seem to be so stagnant, they could benefit from the shake-up that would be releasing a few more titles in a year.

I look forward to a few of their life-action films on Blu-ray, namely Mary Poppins, as BK suggested. However, with the 45th anniversary edition out now, I'm afraid we'll have to wait until the big 50 to see it on Blu-ray. I wonder if Bedknobs and Broomsticks, which I just watched for the first time in a long time today, is worthy of an HD release?

[BK]

I seem to be posting excessively, but anyway, so I find another article where Iger, CEO of Disney, says he doesn't believe that sales will ever reach their past peak and how he intends to be at the forefront of digital downloads or whatever so that the consumer can see their product on any screen they want.

I'll readily state I'm biased because Iger is a bit of a ****tard. Obviously they aren't going back to the highs of the past, does that mean you don't release anything? Does that mean you don't remaster anything? Forefront? How is KeyChest doing? Failing? For a studio that relies on whoring out BATB and SW for money that doesn't seem like a smart thing to do.

Maybe the consumer wants to have more product, more choice to watch on their different screens and not just on the off-chance they manage to grab a BATB, SW or Santa Paws?

Screw you Iger. Slowly, actually quickly, reaching Eisner-levels of incompetency. I won't touch upon all the other stupid suit decisions made so far but if, or should I say when Disney suffers losses that are 'unexpected' we'll all know who to blame.

[The_Iceflash]

I seem to be posting excessively, but anyway, so I find another article where Iger, CEO of Disney, says he doesn't believe that sales will ever reach their past peak and how he intends to be at the forefront of digital downloads or whatever so that the consumer can see their product on any screen they want.

People need to stop thinking digital downloads are/should be the future. As far as I'm concerned, the cons outweigh the pros as far as digital downloads are concerned.

[MJW]

I had a sad thought over the weekend while watching The Great Mouse Detective...

I borrowed the "Mystery in the Mist Edition" from my library. Although the transfer looked pretty good, I couldn't help but notice that the restoration wasn't as mind-blowing as what we've seen in Snow White, Pinocchio, and Sleeping Beauty. Don't get me wrong, it looked very good, but just not astounding (I still enjoyed it).

A few days later, I watched the Platinum version of Peter Pan, which even though it has not been restored again for Blu-ray (such as Snow White etc.) the picture quality was already so much better. It made me wonder that if this point, Disney is ONLY going to give what they consider their "worthy" films any further restoration for release on Blu-ray.

I have a feeling they've given up on some of the films they don't consider to be big sellers, and they aren't going to want to shell out the money, effort, and time it would take for a proper Blu-ray presententation. At best, MAYBE they'll throw a not properly prepared title on Blu-ray, but I think DVD releases are the most we may get for the less popular titles.

Although that idea is probably not news to anyone, I think that we're going to be shocked at what we WON'T see on Blu-ray. I'm really worried that the we're only going to get the formerly Platinum (now Diamond) titles, and a few others (Alice, Dumbo, etc.) on Blu-ray. But what about that "second-tier" of films? I'll give Disney the benefit of the doubt and say that we'll probably eventually see the 90's films on Blu, but what about classics like The Great Mouse Detective, Oliver and Company, The Rescuers, The Aristocats, etc.? I'll hope for the best but I am beginning to expect the worst...

[Wonderlicious]

I wouldn't rule out seeing any Disney animated film on Blu-Ray. Do remember that Blu-Ray still isn't that huge a format, and that the economy isn't that strong still. What I think that Disney is doing is simply trying to stagger the releases of its animated films so as not to flood the market that much during a medium's relative infancy. When Disney first took to releasing animated titles on DVD with lines like the Gold Collection, and to a lesser extent the Limited Issue series, they put out so many bankable titles in such a short space of time that they cannibalised themselves; by 2001 nearly all the major films had been released, and the churned out, under-promoted DVDs weren't shifting that many copies. Compare this to the late 80s and 90s, when Disney classics were released rather slowly and nearly all followed the strict vault policy; even the arguably lesser titles still sold a fair amount of copies, probably more than their DVD equivalents ever sold.

Then take the still struggling economy into consideration, and it becomes reasonably clear; I don't think that Disney is currently opting to go releasing Blu-Ray editions of what can be described as niche titles (the obscurer animated films, documentaries), as they're not bound to fly off the shelves to perhaps justify full HD conversions in Disney's eyes.

Needless to say, I hope that Disney does release more films on Blu-Ray sometime soon. Though I'm not a huge fan of Hercules, it's had the same mediocre DVD edition since 1999/2000, and is arguably popular enough to shift enough copies in both SD and HD; the same could be said for Lilo and Stitch, The Hunchback of Notre Dame, Mulan, Pocahontas and Tarzan, popular films already in the digital domain and with enough in the way of "Classic DVD/Laserdisc Bonus Features" to port over. None of their pre-1990 live-action films have made it to Blu (not even Mary Poppins!), and admittedly the collector's market on Blu would be perfect to release huge collections of shorts and other obscure material (perhaps a set with all the package features).

[KubrickFan]

I had a sad thought over the weekend while watching The Great Mouse Detective...

I borrowed the "Mystery in the Mist Edition" from my library. Although the transfer looked pretty good, I couldn't help but notice that the restoration wasn't as mind-blowing as what we've seen in Snow White, Pinocchio, and Sleeping Beauty. Don't get me wrong, it looked very good, but just not astounding (I still enjoyed it).

A few days later, I watched the Platinum version of Peter Pan, which even though it has not been restored again for Blu-ray (such as Snow White etc.) the picture quality was already so much better. It made me wonder that if this point, Disney is ONLY going to give what they consider their "worthy" films any further restoration for release on Blu-ray.

I have a feeling they've given up on some of the films they don't consider to be big sellers, and they aren't going to want to shell out the money, effort, and time it would take for a proper Blu-ray presententation. At best, MAYBE they'll throw a not properly prepared title on Blu-ray, but I think DVD releases are the most we may get for the less popular titles.

Although that idea is probably not news to anyone, I think that we're going to be shocked at what we WON'T see on Blu-ray. I'm really worried that the we're only going to get the formerly Platinum (now Diamond) titles, and a few others (Alice, Dumbo, etc.) on Blu-ray. But what about that "second-tier" of films? I'll give Disney the benefit of the doubt and say that we'll probably eventually see the 90's films on Blu, but what about classics like The Great Mouse Detective, Oliver and Company, The Rescuers, The Aristocats, etc.? I'll hope for the best but I am beginning to expect the worst...

Since those 70's and 80's movies need less work for a Blu-ray release, I'd say it's very probable that we see them sooner or later on Blu. However, Disney has always treated those titles worse than they deserve, so who's to say what they will do.

[The_Iceflash]

I would like to see Mary Poppins and Bedknobs and Broomsticks get Blu-ray releases.

[MJW]

With 2011 right around the corner, and Bambi and The Lion King confirmed as the next 2 Diamond Edition releases, what do you all think we are likely to see released as the 2 Diamond titles for 2012?

I've seen Cinderella mentioned, but is it too "early" for that? After all, it went back into the vault in January 2008, making it just a 4 year period of being OOP (if the 2012 speculation is correct). However, Cinderella is technically the next "big" title up for release, only Lady and the Tramp has a longer OOP period of 5 years (vaulted in 2007). Doesn't Disney try to wait at least 7 years before re-releases? I am not sure if that is 7 years from the year it's re-released or the year if goes into the vault?

Unless they add other titles to the Platinum/Diamond line-up (that have been OOP longer), they are going to catch up to themselves pretty quickly and the typical 7 year period is going to be out the window.

Does a Spring 2012 release of Lady and the Tramp and a fall 2012 release of Cinderella seem to be the most likely possibility right now?

[singerguy04]

I'd love to know a time in the since Disney initiated the "7-year" rule where they've actually used it...

I would believe Lady and the Tramp (spring 2012) and Cinderella (fall 2012) would be a fare projection. If They're following the Platinum release order, they would be next. Cindy was released in the fall of '05 making it 7 years since it's release, and LatT was released in '06 making it 6 years since it's release. It's seems that disney would be following the 7-year release pattern if they ignore the vaulted date and only followed the release dates.

[BK]

With 2011 right around the corner, and Bambi and The Lion King confirmed as the next 2 Diamond Edition releases, what do you all think we are likely to see released as the 2 Diamond titles for 2012?

I've seen Cinderella mentioned, but is it too "early" for that? After all, it went back into the vault in January 2008, making it just a 4 year period of being OOP (if the 2012 speculation is correct). However, Cinderella is technically the next "big" title up for release, only Lady and the Tramp has a longer OOP period of 5 years (vaulted in 2007). Doesn't Disney try to wait at least 7 years before re-releases? I am not sure if that is 7 years from the year it's re-released or the year if goes into the vault?

Unless they add other titles to the Platinum/Diamond line-up (that have been OOP longer), they are going to catch up to themselves pretty quickly and the typical 7 year period is going to be out the window.

Does a Spring 2012 release of Lady and the Tramp and a fall 2012 release of Cinderella seem to be the most likely possibility right now?

I don't think there is any doubt. There is a set line up and that's that. No reason to shift it all around especially if they have started doing restoration work.

Both titles would need it, actually all the remaining Diamonds would so yeah.

As for your fears about whether or not they will move the 80s films on Blu; you should know by next year with Fox and the Hound's 30th anniversary.

That's undoubtedly the most popular/well-known 80s feature on a major anniversary and if it doesn't get it, there's no chance any of the others will for the next 5 years or so I think. All their films pre-Rescuers Down Under will need restoration work so although the 80s isn't as bad as the 40s another 5 years of deterioration just adds up. There's a chance within the next 5 years another format comes up as well so they'll be screwed again.

It's a good thing though I guess that excluding package features they will have got all their earliest films converted already. Good thing too they had Sleeping Beauty/Pinocchio on Blu because the latter would've been even harder I'm assuming to transfer 5 years from now or whenever it's next release is due. Dumbo, Alice and Fantasia have also thankfully 'made it' to Disney's apparent exclusive Blu club.

A warning though; even though it may seem a given for them to get big sellers like Lilo & Stitch, Brother Bear & Tarzan onto Blu, apparently only Dumbo, Alice, Fantasia and Aladdin were planned- this came from someone from Europe who's branch was very reliable. Again, this will be disproved or proved with Fox and the Hound and Pocahontas, which going OOP this year can only mean MILLION DIP sometime soon.

[Barbossa]

I wonder if media formats will change before the Diamond line is completed. (i.e. Platinum line finishing up and Blu taking over)

[MJW]

I wonder if media formats will change before the Diamond line is completed. (i.e. Platinum line finishing up and Blu taking over)

That's an interesting thought, and I wouldn't be surprised. Technology, and the world in general, seems to change and move at a much faster pace these days. We've already "upgraded" from HD to 3D HD in a very short amount of time. I don't know if 3D is going to really catch on in terms of the home video market. I just got my first HDTV and don't really have any plans to upgrade to 3D, so I am hoping that 3D releases don't become the new norm anytime soon.

[PheR]

If I were a Disney executive, I'd create a 'special-whatever-collection' to release Aladdin, Pocahontas, Hunchback, Hercules, Mulan and Tarzan ASAP!

Can you just imagine all that people in Paris in that scene when Quasimodo saves Esmeralda or the Topsy Turvy Festival in gorgeous HD?!! or those scenes in Pocahontas when you see the characters really small? like she's talking to her father just before the 'around the riverbend' song.

[MJW]

If I were a Disney executive, I'd create a 'special-whatever-collection' to release Aladdin, Pocahontas, Hunchback, Hercules, Mulan and Tarzan ASAP!

Great idea, maybe call it "The Renaissance Collection" or something!

People are saying that it looks like they transferred Fantasia 2000 direct to Blu-ray from the original CAPS files. If that is the case, I wish we could get some of the other 90's films, as it seems like they wouldn't have to do much restoring, but who knows. I am not technical expert when it comes to their films, so maybe they would need some updating, such as how they said they had to remove water spots from the BATB backgrounds to prepare it for HD.

Either way, I eagerly look forward to the day that we see some of the 90's films make their way to Blu-ray.

[BK]

Bumping the last thread to sort of relate to the topic I'm going to post about.

Using thenumbers I found some sales data for Disney DVDs, I had a thread once and can't remember what data I already have, but anyway here goes:

The charts start in Feb 06

Lady and the Tramp and Chicken Little both sold over 6m units.
Dumbo in June 06 sold nearly 3m but is unclear whether this includes past releases.
Little Mermaid in Oct 06 sold nearly 7m units.
Fox and the Hound sold barely above 2m and Robin Hood barely below. Both are latest release only.
[Cars sold 15m units by comparison]

For the year of 2007

Peter Pan sold 5m units
Winnie the Pooh sold 750k.
Jungle Book sold 4.4m
Robinsons sold 4.5m
[Ratatouille sold 12m units]

This is where the data goes downhill for some reason they stopped having pages for DVD sales.

2008
101 Dalmatians sold 2.7m
Sleeping Beauty sold 2.4m on DVD only.
Wall-E sold 9m on DVD only.

2009
Pinocchio sold 2.6m on DVD only.
Bolt sold 4.7m on DVD only.
Up sold 10.6m on DVD only.
Snow White sold 1m on DVD only.

Snow White was affected by delayed DVD and since Sleeping Beauty the Blu-Ray sales aren't counted.

What I wanted to highlight is the discrepancy and therefore the likelihood of seeing titles on Blu.

The Platinums seem to have sold more obviously; Mermaid, Tramp and Peter Pan.

What isn't really clear is why Jungle Book and Dalmatians performed quite average. Was it the horizon of Blu-Ray? JB posted okay numbers but 101D was less than Dumbo.

Then we see the non-Platinums and Fox, RH got to 2m but Pooh only managed 750k.

Other data: Aristocats got about 780k from charting in the top 20 so I assume since 2008 it could have passed 1m. Sword in the Stone has about 200k tracked. Oliver & Company 300k. Lilo 09 release 75k. Great Mouse Detective 75k and Black Cauldron didn't even sell 23k if it was released on Sep 14th.

Anyway if you understood the post, the point was to emphasize the likelihood that we may not get these movies on Blu for a long time if we go by sales.

We could see them do a tie-in for Pooh and maybe release titles like Fox, Robin Hood & Aristocats because they cleared a million at least but if Cauldron couldn't sell 23k in its release week there is close to no chance they are going to issue it soon. I guess we all already know this but if this is how Disney thinks, we have some data to see why they think the way they do.

Lilo has sold a lot and I'm not sure the re-release had any publicity but 75k is poor for it considering Oliver and other releases which had their second releases cleared 100k.

Equally terrible is the number for GMD less than a 100k in 2 weeks though it might have passed that by now.

The litmus test will be Fox and the Hound; if getting 2m units doesn't get a Blu-Ray release (and adding its first release as well whatever that number may be) then there is no hope for anything else.

If Pocahontas gets reissued this year, likely, but only on DVD that's probably the nail in the coffin for at least the next 5 years for anything non-Platinum or Aladdin coming out.

Only time will tell now.

[BK]

Found some of my old data:

Think this was probably up to early 2010 before May definitely and since there has been no reason for most of these movies to have made the top 20 DVD/BR list by this is for all accounts and purposes final. (Excluding BATB of course and Fantasia/2000)

One more thing to note is the fact that this is only accurate for the time they were on the charts and the provider couldn't give me the dates they last were on the charts so some particularly older ones might have a couple hundred thousand more if they didn't go to the Vault.

Snow White 7.9m
Pinocchio 3.0m
Fantasia 15k (w/o rerelease)
Bambi 5m
Cinderella 6.1m
Peter Pan 5.3m
Lady and the Tramp 6m
Sleeping Beauty 6.2m
Little Mermaid 7m
Beauty and the Beast 4.4m (w/o rerelease)
Aladdin 4.4m
Lion King 8m
Hunchback 110k
Tarzan 1.3m
Emperor 1.2m
Lilo 7.6m
Treasure 1.9m
Brother Bear 6.2m
Chicken Little 6.3m
Robinsons 3m
Bolt 5.6m

The discrepancy I have just noticed is Robinsons with 1.5m less than thenumbers since Blu-Ray couldn't have added that much more, probably only added 500k<.

edit: Just checked and apparently MTR has added 600k from 2007 so maybe the 4.5m is right. Also it didn't make the top 20 in the holiday period where it added quite a couple thousand so thenumbers is probably more accurate on this title.

[MJW]

The litmus test will be Fox and the Hound; if getting 2m units doesn't get a Blu-Ray release (and adding its first release as well whatever that number may be) then there is no hope for anything else.

I think The Fox and the Hound would be a good title to "test" on Blu, especially this year with it being the 30th Anniversary, and you know Disney loves anniversaries!

That being said, I'd almost be scared if it actually happened based on some of your statistics. It seems as though if the film doesn't fly off the shelves that it will be the proverbial "nail in the coffin," as you mentioned.

I know there are quite a few members on the board that are still only purchasing the DVDs, but I wish Disney would commit to going combo for ANY releases from this point forward. I guess that would be a big commitment though, because you would hope that that would mean a proper restoration of each, and not just throwing titles on Blu-ray when they were not up-to-par.