Episode 3: Revenge of the Gays, Are You One Too?

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Super Aurora
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Spain's Gay men trolls Pope

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BARCELONA, Spain, Nov 7 (Reuters) - Pope Benedict attacked abortion and gay marriage, recently legalised in Spain, in a Mass to consecrate Barcelona’s iconic church in another pointed criticism of what he called Spain’s "aggressive secularism".

Spain’s legalisation of abortion on demand this year and gay marriage in 2005 have stoked tensions with the Vatican but Madrid has tried to downplay any friction during the pope’s two-day visit.

Hundreds of gay and lesbians protested the Church’s position by kissing publicly as the pope passed by on his way to the fantastically embellished modernist Sagrada Familia, designed by Antoni Gaudi and under construction for 128 years.

"The Church resists every form of denial of human life and gives its support to everything that would promote the natural order in the sphere of the institution of the family," the pope said in the Mass.

He also said "the indissoluble love of a man and a woman is the effective context of human life in its gestation, birth, growth, and natural end," in a clear criticism of gay marriage.

Before Sunday the Sagrada Familia — which will eventually be able to seat more than 10,000 people — had never been used as a church. Gaudi died in 1926 and construction has been slow, funded only by visitor admission fees and donations.

MASS KISS

It was not clear if the pope noticed the mass kiss protest in the midst of thousands of flag-waving supporters who cheered the pope as he rode by in a bullet-proof "pope mobile".

"We are here for a peaceful protest. The church oppresses us and doesn’t respect us... We can’t tolerate this sort of pope in the 21st century," said Eduardo Prado, 39, one of about 300 men and women who participated in the so-called queerkissflashmob.

Prime Minister Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero promoted the legalisation of gay marriage, including adoption rights, and a law allowing abortion on demand for women 16 years and older during the first 14 weeks of pregnancy.

Spain, where 76 percent of the population consider themselves Catholic, was the third country in the world to legalise homosexual marriage.

Pope Benedict, on his second visit to Spain since he was elected, drew criticism from leftist commentators for remarks he made on his flight to the country on Saturday when he said the country was going through a period of "aggressive secularism like we saw in the 1930s."

Government officials did not react, but critics questioned the comparison of declining religiosity — only 15 percent of those Spaniards who say they are Catholic regularly attend church — with the anti-clerical movement of the 1930s.

Some even saw it as a tacit support of what followed in the Republican government of the 1930s, the 36-year dictatorship of Francisco Franco, who was close to the Church.

"The state spends 6 billion euros each year to finance Catholic activities (schools, religion classes, reconstruction of churches, bishops’ salaries). Is that aggressive secularism or a threatening anti-clericalism?" wrote journalist and commentator Juan G. Bedoya in El Pais newspaper’s Sunday edition.

The pope called for a "re-evangelisation" of Spain, which has produced some of the most influential Catholics in history.

Spain’s history is intensely linked to the Church. The country’s Catholic monarchs in the 1400s expelled Muslims and Jews or enforced their conversion to Christianity through the Inquisition, as well as funding the evangelisation of the New World.

On Sunday the pontiff praised the Sagrada Familia, which when completed will have 18 soaring towers representing important figures of Christianity as well as intricate sculptures detailing Jesus’s life.

The name of the church means Holy Family in English.

"Gaudi, by opening his spirit to God, was capable of creating in this city a space of beauty, faith and hope which leads man to an encounter with him who is truth and beauty itself," the pope said during his homily.
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Post by Disney's Divinity »

I don't mind that the Church is anti-abortion or anti-gay, but it really needs to keep its mouth out of politics.
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Post by Goliath »

Disney's Divinity wrote:I don't mind that the Church is anti-abortion or anti-gay, but it really needs to keep its mouth out of politics.
I do mind, because it directly negatively affects the lives and (mental) health of millions of people around the world. Take Nicaragua for example, where president Ortega switched positions from pro-choice to anti-abortion because of pressure of the Catholic church in the heavily Roman Catholic country. In order to get into power again (he was president in the 1980's until the Reagan administration overthrew him), he made a 180 degrees turn on abortion and outlawed it completely. The consequence is that a lot of women have to undergo dangerous, health-threatening illegal abortions, which often cost them their lives. It's the one issue that keeps me from championing his otherwise great social policies, like I do with the other Latin-American leaders. I can't ignore this, and it's because the iron grip the Catholic church has on the country's society.

In Argentina, the recently deceased former president Kirchner defied the Catholic church in his heavily religious country and pushed through legislation legalizing same-sex marriage. Just because he thought it was the right thing to do. He saw it as a human rights issue. I'm going to miss real leaders like him.
Hundreds of gay and lesbians protested the Church’s position by kissing publicly as the pope passed by on his way to the fantastically embellished modernist Sagrada Familia, designed by Antoni Gaudi and under construction for 128 years.
That was fantastic! The Pope lashed out against the government of prime minister José Zapatero, because of the legalization of same-sex marriage. Again, like Argentina and recently Portugal, a socialist government. :wink:
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Post by Disney Duster »

Goliath wrote:The consequence is that a lot of women have to undergo dangerous, health-threatening illegal abortions, which often cost them their lives.
Wow, so women choose to do things which end up killing them when trying to kill other human life. That's interesting.
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Post by Wonderlicious »

I saw images of gay and lesbian couples kissing in front of the Popemobile and I couldn't help but laugh, in a congratulatory "screw you, Ratzinger" way. :)

I consider myself Agnostic, mainly because I honestly am uncertain as to whether some form of deity exists. I was, however, technically raised in the Catholic faith, went to both a Catholic primary and high school, and was reasonably religious until my mid-teens. I can honestly say that many people in Britain with some link to Catholicism baptise their children in that church only to get them into Catholic state schools (read: schools which comparatively get better grades than other state schools). Practically everybody in my year at school was as dirty as anywhere else, and practically nobody practices religion regularly or goes to church anymore. Any conservative or traditionalist attitudes frankly derive more from societal pressure and non-religious aspects of their upbringing.

I do think that the Catholic Church really needs to sort itself out, and the fact that such a traditionalist pope is in charge is quite frankly worrying, whether or not he gets involved with politics or not. I have many gripes with the pope, and with his Bavarian homeland (not the nicest region of Germany as far as some of its inhabitants go, and this is from personal experience :roll: ), but I'll try and stay focused. Let me just first say that there are religious members of my family who are against the current pope and what he stands for. I, along with many people I know, feel the Vatican should allow priests to marry (they did prior to around 1000AD), and to allow women to be equally ordained; the prevention of the latter is particularly pathetic, and the fact that a nun in Britain was reputably ex-communicated for suggesting that women should be allowed to be ordained proves the misogyny of the current powers-that-be.

I also think that the pope should keep his mouth shut on the way society is going, and whether or not he hates the idea of men getting it on with other men. We've been through the Renaissance, the Enlightenment, and other major social changes up until this day, all of which can frankly be said to have benefited humanity for good. Resistance to the progress of civilization is essentially the undoing of humanity's triumphs. I'm not trying to colour this society and day in age as the best, as there are naturally many problems, but a lot of the Church's resistance is aggravating to the problems of society, and defies reason and human intelligence. Attitudes towards sexuality and life have changed in numerous societies, and the danger of STDs is huge. One simply can't say "no, don't do anything until you're really in love", when all that is supposedly being done wrong is being in love. And when it comes to "natural" and "unnatural", if two men (or two women) are in love with each other, what's wrong with that? They are consenting to one another, which is where the lines of "natural" and "unnatural" are drawn.

The pope's condemnation of contraception is unnerving as it could create problems. I know that in much of Latin Europe, the Church has indeed been resisted (as in my old school, pupil-wise, that is), but there are cases where this isn't the case. I have a friend who was an assistant English teacher in an Austrian school for a year (Austria being a Catholic country, btw). She was asked by a teacher to run a sex education class, a rarity. They were all around 15-16 and were sexually active, but knew little of the consequences. Contraception was harder to procure (the pill is apparently very expensive in Austria, practically free in the UK), and rarely used by these teens, and they had very little idea of any STDs outside of HIV and syphilis. My friend ended up just giving in to the bitter truths and telling them all about why they need to protect themselves, and what the other STDs were (a girl was in tears when she discovered she could end up becoming infertile if she wasn't careful enough). Now, I do think that these teenagers probably shouldn't have been having aimless, hedonistic free-for-alls, but their own society should have been informative and upfront about certain issues, regardless of what a guy in a nice stone building may say; anybody who knows Spring Awakening (the play or musical) will know what I mean.

Now, I don't want the Catholic legion of UD (if there is one :p) to think that I'm being necessarily anti-Catholic in this post, and attacking them. I have some Irish ancestry, and my family history is often interwoven with aspects of the Catholic faith; trying to deny some of it would be ignoring my own personal history and the personal identity of my ancestors. My own problem is with the pope and the direction that Christianity (Catholic or non) is going in at the moment, as it's lacking a lot of rationality to be fully relevant or fully acceptable in my books.

Anyway, congratulations again to the protesters in Barcelona. Love is by far a better (and more entertaining) weapon than violence. :)
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Post by stitchje1981 »

Disney's Divinity wrote:I don't mind that the Church is anti-abortion or anti-gay, but it really needs to keep its mouth out of politics.
It's even better here in Belgium...
Our cardinal tells everyone that if you get AIDS it's your own fault, you have to blame yourself and should be ashamed of yourself!!!

Or even better, if a priest raped a kid a long time ago and he's retired now, instead of accusing him and going to court or something: you should just leave him alone and let him enjoy his retirement !!!!!!

BTW: that pic of all those gay men in front of the pope is really great :lol:
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Post by Disney's Divinity »

stitchje1981 wrote:

Our cardinal tells everyone that if you get AIDS it's your own fault, you have to blame yourself and should be ashamed of yourself!!!
Yeah, because all people with AIDS are promiscuous homosexuals. Never mind the children born with it, the people raped, the average people who might have had a husband or wife who cheated with someone infected--no, it's all about promiscuity and homosexuality. AIDS is "God's Wrath." For someone who supposedly sent this plague on us, he sure waited a long time, considering men have been doing it with each other for the past 2,000 years. But this all comes from people who think the disease naturally appeared from homosexuality, and not because of chimpanzee meat in Africa (caused because people were starving, and the rest of the world let them). Homosexuals have become the poster child of all the problems in the world. Disease, political polarization, global warming, high deficits, death, etc.

Pricks.
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Post by Disney Duster »

The Pope should still get to talk simply because of free speech and everyone has an opinion and should get to talk about whatever they want. We don't want the Pope to take away our rights, we shouldn't take away his.
Wonderlicious wrote:One simply can't say "no, don't do anything until you're really in love", when all that is supposedly being done wrong is being in love. And when it comes to "natural" and "unnatural", if two men (or two women) are in love with each other, what's wrong with that? They are consenting to one another, which is where the lines of "natural" and "unnatural" are drawn.
Can you please elaborate on what you mean by all of this? I want to understand it more.
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Post by stitchje1981 »

Disney's Divinity wrote:
stitchje1981 wrote:

Our cardinal tells everyone that if you get AIDS it's your own fault, you have to blame yourself and should be ashamed of yourself!!!
Yeah, because all people with AIDS are promiscuous homosexuals. Never mind the children born with it, the people raped, the average people who might have had a husband or wife who cheated with someone infected--no, it's all about promiscuity and homosexuality. AIDS is "God's Wrath." For someone who supposedly sent this plague on us, he sure waited a long time, considering men have been doing it with each other for the past 2,000 years. But this all comes from people who think the disease naturally appeared from homosexuality, and not because of chimpanzee meat in Africa (caused because people were starving, and the rest of the world let them). Homosexuals have become the poster child of all the problems in the world. Disease, political polarization, global warming, high deficits, death, etc.

Pricks.

Exactly!!!
That's "God's Wrath", bla bla bla.... etc.
But everything else, like you said from the monkey's, born children with it, raped, cheated husbands or wives to even a wrong blood transfusion doesn't count!!!! It's all you that's to blame when you catch the disease! And when all the people ( gay's, bi- sexuals and even straights) were shocked about him he just said that he was missunderstood, but apoligizing: NO WAY!!!!
It's also our fault 'cause we missunderstood him....

I totally agree with you Disney Divinity => PRICKS !!!!!
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Post by Wonderlicious »

Disney Duster wrote:Can you please elaborate on what you mean by all of this? I want to understand it more.
This could be controversial, as I could be bringing up very risky topics. I'll make some allusions to such things in this post, but I'd rather not anybody bring those certain things up explicitly, as it really upsets me talking/reading about it, and was the reason why I didn't go and elaborate on it in the first place. Such topics don't normally go down on UD that well.

Anyway, these are what I mean be "natural", "unnatural", "consenting"...

Natural/Consenting:
A person (be they male or female) falls for somebody (male or female), and wants to make love to said somebody. Said somebody understands, also feels an attraction, and consents to a bond. The bond is mutually accepted form of bonding, truly natural.

Unnatural/Non-consenting:
A person falls for somebody, and wants to make love to said somebody. Said somebody either doesn't understand, or feels no attraction, and doesn't consent to a bond. The bond is unnatural and unjust, because, well...you get the picture. It's forced.

Basically, what I'm trying to say with the first example is to describe my thoughts on sex before marriage, sex with contraception and homosexuality, which the pope has openly condemned. If the urges involved are mutual, then there should be nothing wrong with it, as it's the natural desire for two people very much in love to bond and make their relationship stronger. With the second example ("unnatural"), I'm basically talking about relations by a certain person, whereby the feelings are either simply not mutual and one person forces themselves upon another, whether the victim does understand what's going on or not (I'm not going to even delve into examples, as they don't need explaining). Now, many mindless, fanatical critics of homosexuality have unfortunately compared same-sex relationships to the dangers posed by what I described as "unnatural". And many such people have also deemed pre-marital sex and sex with contraception as against the rules of nature.

So, basically, I think that there's nothing wrong with same-sex relationships, or with contraception, or with sex before marriage, contrary to the view of some people. I personally wouldn't not mind getting married while still being in a relationship and doing a lot of typical "marriage" stuff (buying a house, having kids etc), and would actually like it in Britain if they started something like civil partnerships or the French PACS for straight couples. Any loving couple should be free to share their feelings between one another, and I hate that sane people - gay or straight - have to sometimes apologise for the circumstances of their relationship, in this day and age.
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Post by Disney's Divinity »

Disney Duster wrote:The Pope should still get to talk simply because of free speech and everyone has an opinion and should get to talk about whatever they want. We don't want the Pope to take away our rights, we shouldn't take away his.
The Church is an institution not an individual. It's fine to say whatever they want within the Church, but religion has no place in politics.
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Post by Goliath »

Disney Duster wrote:
Goliath wrote:The consequence is that a lot of women have to undergo dangerous, health-threatening illegal abortions, which often cost them their lives.
Wow, so women choose to do things which end up killing them when trying to kill other human life. That's interesting.
You're not only mentally insane, you're also disgusting, you know that?
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Post by Super Aurora »

Goliath wrote:
Disney Duster wrote: Wow, so women choose to do things which end up killing them when trying to kill other human life. That's interesting.
You're not only mentally insane, you're also disgusting, you know that?
He worded it wrong. By "interesting" he meant that's something new to him, he never knew about.
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Post by Disney Duster »

Wondy, so you think it's natural if it's consenting because the feelings come naturally. Well. One could argue bad things happen naturally, too, unfortunately. But if the argument is that it's wrong is that it's unnatural, they don't really have an argument at least. But I'm just wondering if there might be all these different meanings for the very word "natural".

Divinity, well, the Pope is an individual, and I suppose he speaks for the church, but not everyone who follows the church or him agrees with everything he or they say. They may be supposed to, but they don't. I think the Pope can be viewed as an individual, or that even the church can be viewed as just having an opinion.

Goliath no I'm not. But I could very well say that was those women did was insane and disgusting.

Super Aurora, actually, I was merely pointing out that it was interesting, and all that can possibly be thought from it. All.

They risked death to kill others. I find something just plain odd about that, when the reason they want to kill human life is so they can have "their own life", even though both lives can live, and then they end up losing their life.
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Post by Wonderlicious »

Disney Duster wrote:Wondy, so you think it's natural if it's consenting because the feelings come naturally. Well. One could argue bad things happen naturally, too, unfortunately. But if the argument is that it's wrong is that it's unnatural, they don't really have an argument at least. But I'm just wondering if there might be all these different meanings for the very word "natural".
:brick:

You know, I sometimes don't know what I'm trying to do arguing with you. Sometimes I just get painted as a bigot, a snob, an elitist or somebody who doesn't make sense, while other times whatever I say/write gets picked to pieces. I understand that bad things happen, but I was talking in terms of sexuality. Two people consenting to each other is perfectly natural, and thus acceptable, whether or not they put on something that will stop them from having a baby or if they're of the same gender. The unnatural definition applies to stuff like rape, bestiality and something horrid beginning with P - the bond is unnatural as one party doesn't consent. I'm trying to defend LGBT rights in light of Catholic influence, and also trying to condemn the things that really ruin some people's lives, that fanatical folk try and lump homosexuality and pre-marital sex and sex with contraceptives with. :roll:
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Post by Goliath »

Disney Duster wrote:Goliath no I'm not. But I could very well say that was those women did was insane and disgusting.

They risked death to kill others. I find something just plain odd about that, when the reason they want to kill human life is so they can have "their own life", even though both lives can live, and then they end up losing their life.
You have no right at all to judge these women. Not untill you have lived their lifes and went through their experiences. Unless you have stood in their shoes, you have no right to kick them when they're down, from your luxury position, safely behind your computer. You have no idea what it's like to be a woman, especially in a second-world country like Nicaragua. You sit in your ivory tower, casting judgement on others --a job I thought was already taken by God, is it not? From a Christian I expected compassion with the weaker people on this earth. But you choose to be hateful and vengeful. And yes, comparing it to "killing human life" is both insane and disgusting.
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Post by Disney Duster »

Wondy, well, I'm gay, and I'm just trying to understand what you're saying. I just want to get to the bottom of it, so I keep debating and arguing. By your definition of natural, yes, you're right. But the thing is, what do the other people mean by "natural"? Couldn't killers say the desire to kill came naturally to them? Or no?

Goliath, I was mainly saying it's very strange for women to risk their lives/kill themselves just because they don't want to have a baby, when at least if they had a baby, they could live.

However, in cases where the women would be killed or put in a position where they would die/be tortured to wish death on themselves by other people when they discovered her with child, then I can certainly understand. But I have not heard of any of those circumstances.

And no, killing any and all human life is disgusting, and could be called insane.
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Post by carolinakid »

This whole discussion depends on when one thinks human life begins....if one believes human life begins at conception, then I would assume one would think nothing justifies an abortion....

But I also believe in objective truth....either an unborn baby/fetus (use the term you prefer) is a human life or it isn't....and if one agrees it is, how can killing it be justified....


These are points I ponder and sincerely am searching answers for...
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Post by Disney Duster »

Yes, yes, true, true. But, it is human, and it is life. It is human, it will not turn into anything else, and it is alive. You can't abort it if it isn't alive, right? ?

However, I think in some situations, it is a necessary bad thing to have an abortion. Like if the mother is too young and having the baby could pretty much wreck her and the baby itself, physically, or if the mother and baby would have a torturous life where they wished they were dead.

There's just some situations where I think even God wouldn't really want a baby to be born.
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Post by TheSequelOfDisney »

This is a very interesting topic. Personally, I think the woman should be able to choose whether or not she wants an abortion. In my psychology class I've learned that at 7 months the fetus can breathe on it's own if born prematurely (there is something that can be found in the amniotic fluid which determines whether or not the fetus can breathe on it's own). For me, that's when it's a baby because at that point, if necessary, it can breathe for itself.
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