Escapay wrote:These aren't the droids you're looking for?pap64 wrote:Move along...
albert
Man I thought we were a gonna back there!
Post ur Disney princess collection!
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Super Aurora
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Man I thought we were a gonna back there!
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I'm sorry to burst your bubble, Duster, but that's the reality for a whole lot of people. Not only in 1920's New Orleans, but still this very day, in the US, too. Single mothers working three (!) jobs to support their families is no rarity, sadly. You think those people have time to dream or have fun? You may say that Disney's films don't naturally have to reflect everyday reality, because we watch them to escape reality. I, for one, found it to refreshing to see a tiny bit more realism in a Disney film --even though that aspect of the lives of poor black people in the South in the 1920's is the *only* aspect that's accurately represented.Disney Duster wrote:Scarred4life, well, it was more like Tiana didn't seem to have any time for fun or dreaming. She was even working at the costume party, wasn't she? And she hardly slept (or was that only one day some days? They don't tell us). It is much more realistic and keeping you sane/alive to make yourself happy equal to/more than to work doing things you don't like.
Tiana was wishing upon a star as a little girl, at the beginning of the movie. And her father's message was to not trust upon that solely; that you have to work hard to reach your goals. She took that advice by heart. Wishing upon stars was *not* the core of his advice --far from that. But you reverse it and pretend it was --to fit your 'classic Disney princess'-narrative.Disney Duster wrote:I don't remember her wishing on the star as a little girl. And when he died, why didn't she take both of his advice in? You could say maybe she was so hardened by his death and the real world and living conditions, but wouldn't she want to keep her father's beliefs, all of them, including the star, alive together?
Oh no? How else could a black person work herself up the social ladder? Tiana's family didn't live comfortably. They lived in a wooden shack in a poor neighbourhood. If you want to move away from that and make a better life for yourself and your offspring, you have to get a better social position, and owning a restaurant was part of that for Tiana. It seems like you're saying people shouldn't try to get into a better place, because that means they have less time to dream...Disney Duster wrote:Atlantica, yes, her dad practically broke his back working for them. For all we know, he truly had to work that hard so they could live comfortably at all, and he suffered for it. Tiana didn't have to work that hard, she didn't need to get the restaraunt to live, and she didn't need to get it that soon.
I've told you already: because Tiana undermines your delusional worldview in which everything magically turns better simply by wishing upon a star. Tiana's character and the whole movie takes a swing at the previous Disney princesses by mocking what Cinderella and Aurora did: sitting around, doing nothing, and only wishing upon a star.Disney Duster wrote:PS I hope I don't sound rude or argumentative this time, I am trying to say why Tiana made me feel so...bad about what she was doing, and defending the other characters.
I'm sorry, but Cinderella did nothing, nada, zero. After being abused for years by her stepmother and stepsisters, she was still naive enough to believe she would be allowed to go to the prom if she got all her chores done. If it wasn't for the mice, she would never have a dress ready in time. So the mice did all the work. Then when that dress got torn apart by the stepsisters, what did Cindy do? Nothing, except crying in the yard. And then, like the perfect deus ex machina, the Fairy Godmother shows up and provides everything Cindy needs. After the prom, by her behavior, she foolishly reveals to her stepmother she was at the prom. When she gets locked up, it's thanks to the mice and Bruno that she gets out in time.Disney Duster wrote:Like Cinderella did. You see, I see Cinderella as like Walt Disney in the way that she dreamed, and she did work for it (either in wokring to survive or working to go to the ball when her stepmother said she could), but she also had others help her.
Walt Disney worked very, very hard to achieve succes. He never got anything from anybody. He didn't have talking animals or fairy godmothers to help him. He had to do it himself. To compare him to Cinderella, is an insult to Walt Disney and his hard work.
She wanted to be human. Look at it this way: she felt she was trapped inside the wrong body. She felt she should be somebody else than who she was. She needed to change herself in order to be the person she really felt she was inside. Now, as someone who's part of the LGTB 'community', you surely can understand that, and realize it has nothing to do with being 'spoiled', right?Disney Duster wrote:Oh, and I don't mean Ariel was spoiled, I was aying she could be called that. She had a great life and lots of things. However, what she wanted, she really needed (and she wanted something a lot more important than the human things she collected, she wanted experience and feeling and being part of the right life for her). So, it's all fine, just saying she may have been a little spoiled.
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Disney Duster
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Goliath, real people cannot live without dreaming or having fun, they can't live without some levity. Tiana's father did have some when he got home at least, and Tiana did with him, but when she was older, she gets home and sleeps for one minute, then the next job. Also, you missed that I was saying she didn't have to work so much to live, she could have kept going at a reasonable pace to eventually climb the social later and get her dream restaraunt, but she wanted it now, now, now.
And I don't remember Tiana wishing as a little girl, she said that she read in the storybook that it would work, and then her mother said to wish on it, and her dad said to also work hard. Does this change some of what Walt's movies said? I am wondering, and so, I am wondering what this is doing at Disney which is supposed to keep Walt's ideals in new films.
And why on Earth should the modern Disney artists get to mock the messages, movies, and characters of Walt, the man who made Disney possible, the core of what Disney is? This is what I have a huge problem with.
And those characters did not do nothing, or sit around, or only wish on a star. You can argue with me all you want, but this will not change, those are not the only things they did, no matter what you say.
Cinderella did not do nothing. She worked to survive, and she worked for what she believed in, which was that if she did good, good would come back to her. Which it did. Perhaps it's not commonly realistic, but for the world she lives in, she was right.
She was not naive in thinking her family would let her go to the ball. As showed when she said "there must be something good" about Lucifer, she chose to believe their was good in the bad people around her, and chose to believe they could change, perhaps if she was kind to them, they would be to her. Of course knowing you, maybe you don’t agree, maybe instead you think you should treat everyone badly if they do so for you. Though if you want to talk about naively believing bad people, look no further than Ariel and Ursula.
Cinderella thought just maybe she could do the chores fast enough to beat them and make it on time, she tried very hard. She failed, but so did Tiana, and then the mice helped her. She had trapped the stepmother in allowing her to go to the ball in the first place, and she trapped the stepmother in having what she needed to go to the ball. So the stepmother had to think of something much more to stop her, and that took the cunning to accuse her of stealing what she used to go to the ball.
After her mother's dress got torn apart, yes, Cinderella cried because something called "emotion", which is very powerful, but maybe you don't know about it, over took her, instead of what maybe you thought she should do, and who knows what that is, since she had no time to make a good enough dress to get into the palace, let alone walk there and be there on time. The palace would not have let her in as a servant, or wearing rags. The white house won't even let you in in jeans.
And actually, Ariel did something very similar. Her things were destroyed by a parental figure, and she cried, until a magical woman, or rather her representatives, came to her.
A Godmother is someone who your parents appoint to watch over and care for their child, especially after they are dead. The reason the Fairy Godmother came was not as a deus ex machina, but because Cinderella was so good, earned it, and had faith. She said she couldn't be there if Cinderella didn't have those things. Once again, you don't see magical things like that in real life, but for the mechanics and logic of the story does it work, that Cinderella made her come to her? Yes, yes it does. The Godmother also fulfills what her stepmother was supposed to do.
After Cinderella gets back from the white house society event, yes, she does reveal she was at the white house, but she was once again overcome by surprise and something called emotion, something called love which may also be hard for you to understand, though Ariel was overcome with emotions like this and, well, got herself and the kingdom in a whole lot more danger.
When the mice broke through her emotions, she figured to use Bruno to set the mice free and set herself free, and used the other slipper for that happy ending.
Walt Disney said that Cinderella was his favorite heroine, and that there was something about her story he identified with. It’s no insult to him, but a compliment he would clearly, gladly take.
Cinderella and Walt both worked very, very hard. All that Cinderella had to do (though she may have gotten thrown out and died on the street for it) was stand up to people, and demand better treatment and money. Did Walt do that? Did he stand up to his father, or demand money from people? He asked for money, and Cinderella asked to go to the ball, both asked for what they wanted in exchange for work.
The only thing I can think of is that maybe Walt lying about his age to get into the military was his way of escaping his father, his evil stepmother. However, Cinderella escaped to the monarchy lying about who she really was. Now that I think about it, maybe that's why there's all those rows of military looking guards when she enters, which took inspiration from that WWII movie...
Anyway, yes, she came up with ideas, approved designs, and her little artists made what she wanted, just like Walt and his artists. Cinderella's also like Mary Blair, designing something, and the artists made it.
It doesn't matter who you are, usually you need help to get big dreams. Even Tiana needed help, most of her film actually involved her friends helping her get to the resolution than about her doing it on her own like she thought she would in the beginning.
As for Ariel, I said she could be called spoiled, not that I do. Ariel wanted to be part of another world when she had a very good life. "The seaweed is always greener in somebody else's lake..." But I agree, she needed to be part of that other world, as her soul would have felt miserable otherwise. But she didn't say she wanted to be human till Ursula suggested it, just part of the human world.
But while I agree with drag queens and changing into a beautiful outfit or beautiful hair, I do not agree with or understand the mutilation of yourself to change into something you are not. I do not agree with cutting and splitting a part of yourself to turn it into something it really can't be, and that you can't be, when you can't even change your chromosomes, or be able to have babies if you "become a girl". It's worse for Ariel because in a way it's like plastic surgery for a man, she didn't take to the idea of becoming human until the love of a man came into the picture. Perhaps Ariel should have waited a while to see if she really wanted to be human, but in the end, as long as she really did want to become human, which we must believe she did, I do agree I would have done what she did if I was in her exact situation and had magic, but applying the situation to real life, I would never change myself into a girl, at least all the way, multilating my most personal area. But I would have done what Cinderella did, too, in real life (though perhaps that is another magic issue which I may only do/could only do if I had magic and was in that exact situation, don't know), but I would not do what Tiana did. I would make more time for myself and be very different.
EDIT: Actually, I'm really not so sure if I would have done what Ariel did in regards to Ursula. Selling my soul for all eternity if the man I think truly loves me doesn't give me the kiss of true love?
And I don't remember Tiana wishing as a little girl, she said that she read in the storybook that it would work, and then her mother said to wish on it, and her dad said to also work hard. Does this change some of what Walt's movies said? I am wondering, and so, I am wondering what this is doing at Disney which is supposed to keep Walt's ideals in new films.
And why on Earth should the modern Disney artists get to mock the messages, movies, and characters of Walt, the man who made Disney possible, the core of what Disney is? This is what I have a huge problem with.
And those characters did not do nothing, or sit around, or only wish on a star. You can argue with me all you want, but this will not change, those are not the only things they did, no matter what you say.
Cinderella did not do nothing. She worked to survive, and she worked for what she believed in, which was that if she did good, good would come back to her. Which it did. Perhaps it's not commonly realistic, but for the world she lives in, she was right.
She was not naive in thinking her family would let her go to the ball. As showed when she said "there must be something good" about Lucifer, she chose to believe their was good in the bad people around her, and chose to believe they could change, perhaps if she was kind to them, they would be to her. Of course knowing you, maybe you don’t agree, maybe instead you think you should treat everyone badly if they do so for you. Though if you want to talk about naively believing bad people, look no further than Ariel and Ursula.
Cinderella thought just maybe she could do the chores fast enough to beat them and make it on time, she tried very hard. She failed, but so did Tiana, and then the mice helped her. She had trapped the stepmother in allowing her to go to the ball in the first place, and she trapped the stepmother in having what she needed to go to the ball. So the stepmother had to think of something much more to stop her, and that took the cunning to accuse her of stealing what she used to go to the ball.
After her mother's dress got torn apart, yes, Cinderella cried because something called "emotion", which is very powerful, but maybe you don't know about it, over took her, instead of what maybe you thought she should do, and who knows what that is, since she had no time to make a good enough dress to get into the palace, let alone walk there and be there on time. The palace would not have let her in as a servant, or wearing rags. The white house won't even let you in in jeans.
And actually, Ariel did something very similar. Her things were destroyed by a parental figure, and she cried, until a magical woman, or rather her representatives, came to her.
A Godmother is someone who your parents appoint to watch over and care for their child, especially after they are dead. The reason the Fairy Godmother came was not as a deus ex machina, but because Cinderella was so good, earned it, and had faith. She said she couldn't be there if Cinderella didn't have those things. Once again, you don't see magical things like that in real life, but for the mechanics and logic of the story does it work, that Cinderella made her come to her? Yes, yes it does. The Godmother also fulfills what her stepmother was supposed to do.
After Cinderella gets back from the white house society event, yes, she does reveal she was at the white house, but she was once again overcome by surprise and something called emotion, something called love which may also be hard for you to understand, though Ariel was overcome with emotions like this and, well, got herself and the kingdom in a whole lot more danger.
When the mice broke through her emotions, she figured to use Bruno to set the mice free and set herself free, and used the other slipper for that happy ending.
Walt Disney said that Cinderella was his favorite heroine, and that there was something about her story he identified with. It’s no insult to him, but a compliment he would clearly, gladly take.
Cinderella and Walt both worked very, very hard. All that Cinderella had to do (though she may have gotten thrown out and died on the street for it) was stand up to people, and demand better treatment and money. Did Walt do that? Did he stand up to his father, or demand money from people? He asked for money, and Cinderella asked to go to the ball, both asked for what they wanted in exchange for work.
The only thing I can think of is that maybe Walt lying about his age to get into the military was his way of escaping his father, his evil stepmother. However, Cinderella escaped to the monarchy lying about who she really was. Now that I think about it, maybe that's why there's all those rows of military looking guards when she enters, which took inspiration from that WWII movie...
Anyway, yes, she came up with ideas, approved designs, and her little artists made what she wanted, just like Walt and his artists. Cinderella's also like Mary Blair, designing something, and the artists made it.
It doesn't matter who you are, usually you need help to get big dreams. Even Tiana needed help, most of her film actually involved her friends helping her get to the resolution than about her doing it on her own like she thought she would in the beginning.
As for Ariel, I said she could be called spoiled, not that I do. Ariel wanted to be part of another world when she had a very good life. "The seaweed is always greener in somebody else's lake..." But I agree, she needed to be part of that other world, as her soul would have felt miserable otherwise. But she didn't say she wanted to be human till Ursula suggested it, just part of the human world.
But while I agree with drag queens and changing into a beautiful outfit or beautiful hair, I do not agree with or understand the mutilation of yourself to change into something you are not. I do not agree with cutting and splitting a part of yourself to turn it into something it really can't be, and that you can't be, when you can't even change your chromosomes, or be able to have babies if you "become a girl". It's worse for Ariel because in a way it's like plastic surgery for a man, she didn't take to the idea of becoming human until the love of a man came into the picture. Perhaps Ariel should have waited a while to see if she really wanted to be human, but in the end, as long as she really did want to become human, which we must believe she did, I do agree I would have done what she did if I was in her exact situation and had magic, but applying the situation to real life, I would never change myself into a girl, at least all the way, multilating my most personal area. But I would have done what Cinderella did, too, in real life (though perhaps that is another magic issue which I may only do/could only do if I had magic and was in that exact situation, don't know), but I would not do what Tiana did. I would make more time for myself and be very different.
EDIT: Actually, I'm really not so sure if I would have done what Ariel did in regards to Ursula. Selling my soul for all eternity if the man I think truly loves me doesn't give me the kiss of true love?
Last edited by Disney Duster on Thu Oct 28, 2010 5:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I really dont know what to say sometimes about Cinderella .... it seems as if there cannot be any other view expressed that is opposite to what you think Disney Duster, and it makes it incredibly frustrating to try and get an opinion accross to you. I got your PM, and I'm terribly sorry, but I can't reply to it; do you have an email or something ?
Tiana did indeed wish upon a star; "Please please PLEASE ... !!" But also knew that hard work is what it will take to actually get her there. I can go through life being beaten and bruised and mentally abused, but all the while knowing if I'm truely good, I will have Walt Disney's blessing from beyond the grave, and I will get my happy ending.
See Duster ? This is why some people get annoyed with the old school Princesses; they have the story happen around them, they themselves do not do much to help it along. Ariel was the first to say, "Hey people ! This is my life, and I can live it as I see fit !" And then the females of Disney have taken off from there to give us more proactive characters on the whole.
If you talk about Ariel being silly for making the deal with Ursula, I could again come back with how unbelievably STUPID was Cindy for saying, "look, i know youve been a total cow / bitch to me for YEARS now, but as youve just said I can DEFFO to the ball if I'm a good girl, then I belive YOU, yes sireeee
" Watching it back now, it is kind of annoying how soft she is, and how much help she does need.
In fact, I actually get annoyed at how much the mice are focused on in the film; I would have preferred to have seen more of Cinderella's character developed.
Tiana did indeed wish upon a star; "Please please PLEASE ... !!" But also knew that hard work is what it will take to actually get her there. I can go through life being beaten and bruised and mentally abused, but all the while knowing if I'm truely good, I will have Walt Disney's blessing from beyond the grave, and I will get my happy ending.
See Duster ? This is why some people get annoyed with the old school Princesses; they have the story happen around them, they themselves do not do much to help it along. Ariel was the first to say, "Hey people ! This is my life, and I can live it as I see fit !" And then the females of Disney have taken off from there to give us more proactive characters on the whole.
If you talk about Ariel being silly for making the deal with Ursula, I could again come back with how unbelievably STUPID was Cindy for saying, "look, i know youve been a total cow / bitch to me for YEARS now, but as youve just said I can DEFFO to the ball if I'm a good girl, then I belive YOU, yes sireeee
" Watching it back now, it is kind of annoying how soft she is, and how much help she does need. In fact, I actually get annoyed at how much the mice are focused on in the film; I would have preferred to have seen more of Cinderella's character developed.
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DisneyAnimation88
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[quote="Disney Duster"]And why on Earth should the modern Disney artists get to mock the messages, movies, and characters of Walt, the man who made Disney possible, the core of what Disney is? This is what I have a huge problem with.[/quote]
I don't think anyone at Disney has ever mocked Walt. Would Roy E. Disney have allowed it before his death last year? Where have you seen this? Perhaps I'm simply missing it but I can't recall any film mocking Disney or the films he had made.
I don't understand why you can't accept someone else's opinion if it is in opposition to your own. The films Walt Disney made are not immune to criticism so why do you have to argue with everyone who does say something against them. In some of your posts you do make good points, in others it just seems your trying to lecture people so that they will come around to your way of thinking.
I don't think anyone at Disney has ever mocked Walt. Would Roy E. Disney have allowed it before his death last year? Where have you seen this? Perhaps I'm simply missing it but I can't recall any film mocking Disney or the films he had made.
I don't understand why you can't accept someone else's opinion if it is in opposition to your own. The films Walt Disney made are not immune to criticism so why do you have to argue with everyone who does say something against them. In some of your posts you do make good points, in others it just seems your trying to lecture people so that they will come around to your way of thinking.
We're not going to Guam, are we?
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Escapay
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Haven't you heard? Dusty's opinions are similar to Walt's. And since Walt was the infallible deity of Disneyanity, to have an opposing opinion would be blasphemy. Must I tread out the Walt's Prayer again?DisneyAnimation88 wrote:I don't understand why you can't accept someone else's opinion if it is in opposition to your own.
Actually, Song of the South has been getting criticism so long that it developed an immunity. Now no matter what anyone says about it, the criticism will not affect it.DisneyAnimation88 wrote:The films Walt Disney made are not immune to criticism
albert
WIST #60:
AwallaceUNC: Would you prefer Substi-Blu-tiary Locomotion?
WIST #61:
TheSequelOfDisney: Damn, did Lin-Manuel Miranda go and murder all your families?
AwallaceUNC: Would you prefer Substi-Blu-tiary Locomotion?
WIST #61:
TheSequelOfDisney: Damn, did Lin-Manuel Miranda go and murder all your families?
Even though atlantica didn't adress me...
That's why I have stopped reading the replies. I knew what Disney Duster was going to reply the moment I started typing my long reply. But I cannot help myself, I have to answer him from time to time. But I'm not going to read that huge-ass reply of his. And why is that? Why do I not reward his hard and long work on such a long answer to one of *my* posts? Simply because of the first line of his message. Immediately, I can see that he hasn't understood the essence of my post (or that he didn't *want* to understand it). If even the first line is like that, I can foresee the rest. It will be one big rehash of all the points that I had already argued against. So I just give up... for now.atlanticaunderthesea wrote:I really dont know what to say sometimes about Cinderella .... it seems as if there cannot be any other view expressed that is opposite to what you think Disney Duster, and it makes it incredibly frustrating to try and get an opinion accross to you.
I'm not saying Cinderella is a weak film, nor am I saying Cinderella is a bad or annoying character. Far from that. I do like her character and I think she's sympathetic. I always root for her when I watch the film. So it's not like I'm annoyed with her. Her role fits the film. It wouldn't be the memorable film it is, if she behaved totally different. And let's not forget the film portrays women like they were seen back in 1950: helpless and inept. The film reflects its time. So while I don't fault the film or the character Cinderella, I will point out that Cindy didn't *do* anything herself. And that's one stone-cold, hard FACT Duster can't deal with.atlanticaunderthesea wrote:If you talk about Ariel being silly for making the deal with Ursula, I could again come back with how unbelievably STUPID was Cindy for saying, "look, i know youve been a total cow / bitch to me for YEARS now, but as youve just said I can DEFFO to the ball if I'm a good girl, then I belive YOU, yes sireeee
I dunno... I think they keep the movie interesting.atlanticaunderthesea wrote:In fact, I actually get annoyed at how much the mice are focused on in the film; I would have preferred to have seen more of Cinderella's character developed.
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tightlacedboots
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I guess it all depends on your definition of levity. Many people, even if it's just for a brief time, go through periods of life where they are burned out, having to work work work and not having time for fun and don't have anyone to come home to or don't have the energy to interact with anyone by the time they get off their shift, come home from class, etc.Disney Duster wrote:Goliath, real people cannot live without dreaming or having fun, they can't live without some levity. Tiana's father did have some when he got home at least, and Tiana did with him, but when she was older, she gets home and sleeps for one minute, then the next job. Also, you missed that I was saying she didn't have to work so much to live, she could have kept going at a reasonable pace to eventually climb the social later and get her dream restaraunt, but she wanted it now, now, now.
I see your example of Tiana's father coming home and having a little bit of time with his family. I wouldn't be opposed to seeing Tiana have more moments of relaxation (even brief) but maybe they left this out of the film to emphasis what hard work goes into getting your own business on track. Maybe it was a sympathy factor... someone that has no time for fun, relaxation is someone we sympathize for more? Not really sure the intentions of the decision.
As for the now, now, now thing. I guess it was like once she got the ball rolling she wanted to follow through and thought that slowing down would make her lose momentum, money (she wanted to see profit sooner rather than later), or whatever. I don't totally object to your view on the rush, but I am trying to think of reasons they chose to make her so adamant about how she did it and it could be for a reason as simple as move the movie along faster.
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Disney Duster
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Goliath and tightlaced I need to get to you later...
Atlantica...
Well I will pm you my E-mail.
Next, I meant Tiana didn't wish when she was little, she only wished when she felt she had no other choice, like she didn't believe her father's advice until later, or did she wish when she was little, I don't remember, all I remember is her saying she 'heard' that you could wish on it.
Cinderella didn't exactly take all that kind of abuse you mentioned, she just did a lot of chores. She tried to fight back but was shut up by her stepmother's biting voice, and Ariel tried to fight back but her father yelled at her, too. Cinderella said she could go to the ball. Now, if she was beaten at times, that's really bad. But she did a little bit of that 'this is my life, I'm going to do a few things about it'.
You are totally I right, I totally agree with you, that Ariel is different from Cinderella in disobeying her father and more doing what she wanted, but she had a little more choice to do that than Cinderella did. Cinderella couldn't fight back or live on her own as a child, and even when older, no matter how much she stood up for herself and refused to do things, her stepfamily would have (at least, it seems) figured out how to keep her down, because they, unlike Triton, were evil.
Also, not getting to go to the ball, and having your soul belong to a sea witch for all eternity are two different things. But I do not hate Ariel for what she did, I do not blame her. And so the same should be for Cinderella.
Also, I see them as both leaders of helpers, they want to do things, and friends, and perhaps magical parental figures and princes, help them along the way.
I do agree, though, I would have liked to see Cinderella refuse to do things, but I like to think she didn't always do what they told her when they didn't know if she did it or not, and mostly just did what she had to around the house.
Also, I agree, there is too much mice, and too little Cinderella (and the Prince).
But I like that Cinderella (and the Prince!) are soft. I like soft people and I like being soft in real life (not like how I get in arguments!).
Atlantica...
Well I will pm you my E-mail.
Next, I meant Tiana didn't wish when she was little, she only wished when she felt she had no other choice, like she didn't believe her father's advice until later, or did she wish when she was little, I don't remember, all I remember is her saying she 'heard' that you could wish on it.
Cinderella didn't exactly take all that kind of abuse you mentioned, she just did a lot of chores. She tried to fight back but was shut up by her stepmother's biting voice, and Ariel tried to fight back but her father yelled at her, too. Cinderella said she could go to the ball. Now, if she was beaten at times, that's really bad. But she did a little bit of that 'this is my life, I'm going to do a few things about it'.
You are totally I right, I totally agree with you, that Ariel is different from Cinderella in disobeying her father and more doing what she wanted, but she had a little more choice to do that than Cinderella did. Cinderella couldn't fight back or live on her own as a child, and even when older, no matter how much she stood up for herself and refused to do things, her stepfamily would have (at least, it seems) figured out how to keep her down, because they, unlike Triton, were evil.
Also, not getting to go to the ball, and having your soul belong to a sea witch for all eternity are two different things. But I do not hate Ariel for what she did, I do not blame her. And so the same should be for Cinderella.
Also, I see them as both leaders of helpers, they want to do things, and friends, and perhaps magical parental figures and princes, help them along the way.
I do agree, though, I would have liked to see Cinderella refuse to do things, but I like to think she didn't always do what they told her when they didn't know if she did it or not, and mostly just did what she had to around the house.
Also, I agree, there is too much mice, and too little Cinderella (and the Prince).
But I like that Cinderella (and the Prince!) are soft. I like soft people and I like being soft in real life (not like how I get in arguments!).
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Chernabog_Rocks
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Aurora didn't really do anything to earn her happily ever after. She sat around being a macguffin while everyone else carried her through the film to the ending.
(Credit to Scaps for the term 'Macguffin' )
Tiana was a breath of fresh air. FINALLY someone who gets it. You can wish on the star but in the end hard work is what gets you there. I could sit around wishing and dreaming that my next exam will be a breeze, but that will amount to crap all if I don't study and work hard.
Also. I didn't read all of your posts Duster because...damn those are long. But you did mention at one point how Cindy can't just walk in as a servant or dressed in rags? Yet she did exactly that in one of the cheap sequels (the third I believe), just walked right up in her servant/chore outfit and grabbed some cheese as her ticket in.
(Credit to Scaps for the term 'Macguffin'
)Tiana was a breath of fresh air. FINALLY someone who gets it. You can wish on the star but in the end hard work is what gets you there. I could sit around wishing and dreaming that my next exam will be a breeze, but that will amount to crap all if I don't study and work hard.
Also. I didn't read all of your posts Duster because...damn those are long. But you did mention at one point how Cindy can't just walk in as a servant or dressed in rags? Yet she did exactly that in one of the cheap sequels (the third I believe), just walked right up in her servant/chore outfit and grabbed some cheese as her ticket in.
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Escapay
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Credit for Macguffin should go to Alfred Hitchcock, actually.Chernabog_Rocks wrote:Aurora didn't really do anything to earn her happily ever after. She sat around being a macguffin while everyone else carried her through the film to the ending.
(Credit to Scaps for the term 'Macguffin'
albert
WIST #60:
AwallaceUNC: Would you prefer Substi-Blu-tiary Locomotion?
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TheSequelOfDisney: Damn, did Lin-Manuel Miranda go and murder all your families?
AwallaceUNC: Would you prefer Substi-Blu-tiary Locomotion?
WIST #61:
TheSequelOfDisney: Damn, did Lin-Manuel Miranda go and murder all your families?
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Disney Duster
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You will always be infinitely wrong on this, and I explained why, and I didn't even explain all of why, but it's your choice to ignore posts and information and things others see that you refuse to see.Goliath wrote:I will point out that Cindy didn't *do* anything herself. And that's one stone-cold, hard FACT Duster can't deal with.
tightlacedboots, yes, I see that. I just got very annoyed with how adamant she was about working, even in the end when she wanted to build the restaraunt herself!
Chernabog, I don't know if you were joking or not, but she couldn't attend a royal ball in rags. Also, in the sequel she decided to say she was a servant, that's how she really got in. Also, when she tried to be with the prince, this was after he already fell in love with her when she was dressed properly. Finally, sequels don't count! Lol.
Wishing and dreaming are not acts of DOING something.Disney Duster wrote:You will always be infinitely wrong on this, and I explained why, and I didn't even explain all of why, but it's your choice to ignore posts and information and things others see that you refuse to see.Goliath wrote:I will point out that Cindy didn't *do* anything herself. And that's one stone-cold, hard FACT Duster can't deal with.
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Disney Duster
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You fail to see the system of kindness she used to get what she wanted with help. You also fail to see that in the world of the film, having faith got the Fairy Godmother to her. Does that happen in real life? Doesn't seem to. But in the world of the film, she did something that made something happen.Goliath wrote:Wishing and dreaming are not acts of DOING something.
Also, I forgot, you said she was weak and inept as they saw women in the 1950's? Well, first, I don't get why you said that when you also said you didn't think she was a weak character, but second of all, in every thing I have read on Cinderella that came from the people who made the film or knew about the making of the film, they all said they intended Cinderella to be strong, even going so far as to specifically say "She was not weak, but she was constrained by the story" or "she had to earn the audiences rooting for her" by not making her weak. That's paraphrasing but the words "Cinderella wasn't weak" and "she was...strong" were used.
She didn't stand up to them to say she shouldn't have to do certain chores, but that doesn't make her weak, especially if it's by choice, and she stood up for other things. Even strong people choose when to talk or do whatever it is they would like to. You just have to be strong inside.