Beauty and the Beast: Diamond Edition (October 5th!)

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Post by Wonderlicious »

enigmawing wrote:Once again, does anyone know how extremely difficult it is to print out digitally-generated images onto physical media and match the colors correctly? Any experts wanna raise their hands?
Well, I'm not in the film industry or whatnot, but even from experiences getting prints of digital photos done (or having film transferred onto digital files for that matter), I can relate. The differences in colours and brightness are very noticeable between digital file and print, and to get comparable results, you need to do some fiddling with the images' exposure, colour levels etc. In the case of Beauty and the Beast, an overall quite rushed production and one of the first to use a new system, there would have been less time for them to do the same level of colour correction that Aladdin and The Lion King did (and no doubt they'd learnt from the confusion of Beauty and the Beast and other early stuff with those too).
enigmawing wrote:People can argue all they like over which version they prefer, I really have no beef with that. But I think it's disrespectful to claim there's some kind of conspiracy going on. If that were the case, Disney would be finding excuses to alter all their films into the so-called Dora the Explorer colors, from Snow White to Peter Pan to The Little Mermaid. The negativity over the colors here is ruining this thread to the point that I don't even want to click on it anymore.
:pink:

That's a gift for saying what I wanted to say. You think exactly how I've come to feel about the matter. :) I really don't mind people saying which version they prefer, but when we get constant silliness from people who claim that only their opinion is right when they perhaps don't know quite what they're talking about, be it in terms of colour correction, print and film issues or general marketing. The silliest thing is really the idea of making the colours brighter to sell; as Netty pointed out, the Disney classics are perennials that sell well on every release, regardless of colour. :roll: And it's particularly insulting when people are dissing the actual producers and directors of the film.
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Post by Elladorine »

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Post by MJW »

enigmawing wrote:But I think it's disrespectful to claim there's some kind of conspiracy going on. If that were the case, Disney would be finding excuses to alter all their films into the so-called Dora the Explorer colors, from Snow White to Peter Pan to The Little Mermaid.
I agree 100%! I read previously that someone thinks Belle's coloring was changed to make her more "tan" to appeal to today's image of "beauty." But like you said, if that were the case, shouldn't Snow White, Aurora, or even Pinocchio look like they've recently hit the beach, too? I mean, why all of a sudden Belle, and why now?

From all the negative talk on this board I was almost afraid to watch the new release in fear that it would be horrendous or something. In the end, I ended up wondering what all the fuss was about because I didn't think anything was as bad as a few people had been making it out to be.

Honestly, most people purchasing this film aren't hardcore Disney fans and I doubt they would even notice or be enticed by a color change. So to think that Disney would over-saturate the film to sell more copies or to put today's children in a trance doesn't make much sense.

With that being said, did anyone ever see/hear of any sales numbers the first week of release? I saw a commercial on CBS during release week saying that "it's official...Beauty and the Beast is the #1 Blu-ray in the country (USA)!," but I never saw anything else regarding sales.
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Post by stitchje1981 »

MJW wrote:From all the negative talk on this board I was almost afraid to watch the new release in fear that it would be horrendous or something. In the end, I ended up wondering what all the fuss was about because I didn't think anything was as bad as a few people had been making it out to be.
I totally agree with you MJW
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Post by Elladorine »

Given Disney's need to manipulate the colors of their films in order to cater to modern audiences, with a little help from Dora the Explorer I've managed to calculate what the 2016 Transparent Alumina Edition of Snow White will look like:

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Post by Mr. Yagoobian »

yukitora wrote:I really don't know what you guys are talking about, the pages aren't pink on my TV when I play it. TV calibration perhaps?
here you are, in 2.44'':

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJQr6bmmRt8&hd=1
So? If I can see it on YouTube and I don't see it on my BD on my calibrated TV, what does that mean? That if my display is accurately reproducing the image on the media, then I won't see what someone uploaded to YouTube? Good. I'd hate to watch it looking all wrong and stuff.
Ok before we go further I need to know what the actual position of the disney apologists is.
Is it. The 'restoration' is the original intent of the movie, but is different from the theater/LD/VHS.
I'm not an apologist, I'm a realist.

And I don't think you get "intent."

Making a motion picture, staging a play or dance---these things are exercises in compromise. Nothing is ever completely finished, nothing is a perfect rendering of what was envisioned at the beginning of the process. Time, money, available tools: all of these play a part, and sometimes there are ideas or issues you just have to let go in order to get finished in time for an opening. As a former tech director of mine used to say, "Done is beautiful."

So, CAPS. Anyone here qualified to give an in-depth lecture? No? Me either. What do we know? That it was a new process, an new way of making an animated film. It was unique and proprietary, built from the ground up, hardware and software that doesn't have any meaning or function outside its closed system. And now, 20 years later, the whole kit and caboodle is obsolete from one end to the other.

What is the source? Tricky question. Everything done by hand has to get into the computer somehow, so you digitize a piece of artwork. Suddenly there's no "there" there anymore: what was a piece of empirical stuff in the real world has been rendered as data. You can't reach out and touch it. There's a technological layer between us and the art, a layer without which there is nothing, no meaning, nothing to look at. The artwork has become a technological representation of itself. In scanning it had to go through hardware and software; it has go through hardware and software to be realized on a display. With perfect execution on the human side---no user error---you're entirely dependent on the technology for bringing the work into the domain where the production will be done, you're entirely dependent on the technology to execute the work, and you're entirely dependent on the integrity of the technology to *show* you what's going on. This film was produced with a system that's now twenty years past its freshness date for state-of-the-art.

And then by some magic pixie dust process, that digital imagery had to get put on film. Anybody know how? I don't. Is there something at the end of the CAPS line that spits out finished film? Is it a positive print? Is it negative? And hasn't this thread already covered in some detail the many issues in realizing a perfect physical reproduction of what you see on your monitor?

The goal was to make a motion picture, and the film they released was de facto the best possible realization of their intent. That doesn't mean they were completely satisfied. Artists never are, virtually by definition: the urge to create is born of divine discontentment. Every filmmaker on earth will point to things in their work they shouldacouldawoulda done differently. I doubt Belle was supposed to be Girl of a Hundred Noses---I don't think that was part of the plan. I don't think any of the other noted continuity issues were what they envisioned. So if at the end of the day the scan wasn't a perfectly accurate reproduction of the artwork, and the monitor wasn't perfectly reproducing the scan, and the film transfer---however that even happens---isn't a perfect reproduction of the digital image, then you take what you've got, having done the best you could in an imperfect world. And even if the results are as good as it can get up to that point in the process, you've got to make release prints, the films actually shown in theatres, which are photographs of photographs of photographs, transiting through a completely different domain of volatile chemical processes and materials, further generations removed, on a media we perceive completely differently (projections reflected off a screen) than that in which the work was produced (directly-emitted light from a display). And what actually happens at the theatre is completely beyond your control: last film-based presentation I saw in a cinema was Ratatouille, for example. It had been running all of two weeks, it was beat to crap, exhibiting wear & damage, specks, dirt, there were some *weird* color timing shifts at reel changes, the presentation was so dim I assumed the lamp was on its last legs, the picture was out of focus...and that was the first time I figured I'd be better off at home in high-def if I wanted to see something more closely resembling the movie the filmmakers wanted me to see. There are a thousand reasons why a finished motion picture will fall short of the filmmakers' hopes and expectations---they may not know exactly where they'll have to cut or compromise or let something ride, but they know from the get-go that's how the cookie crumbles. It's a hugely complicated endeavor all the way around.

VHS & laserdisc are too constrained to accurately reproduce the theatrical experience, period. Limited resolution, limited color space, volatility in authentic color reproduction---all best efforts and intentions taken for granted, that's some weak sauce media. Period. And what went on it was transited through another domain, further removed from where ever this train ride started, and reduced exponentially in every single quality metric. Objectively speaking, there's no way those releases could comprise a most-accurate replication of the film. And you can't say the VHS or laserdisc colors are "right" because you're relying an a couple hours' experience in a theatre twenty years ago, and you're weighing that against the authority of those who've spent hours daily over weeks and months in the past twenty years immersed in this motion picture, handling artwork, monitoring compositing, screening film, participating in three generations' worth of home media releases. How on earth can you declare yourself to be qualified to know how it should look or has looked on any medium ever? How? How can you claim this looks like garbage? On what hook do you hang that hat? What do you know about animation and color timing and post-production and photography and making this particular movie and releasing it again and again over twenty years that Don Hahn doesn't know---that *you* know *better*? When you have no meaningful relationship with the processes involved, how can you question whether *any* home media release is anything other than at least a good-faith effort? Do you own the BD? Is your TV calibrated? Have you ever in the history of your viewing experience made a good-faith effort to confirm the integrity of your TVs color reproduction, for any medium?

I read ranting and I read raving, and it's all about what it looked like twenty years ago with nothing to point at. I owned the VHS, haven't seen it in ages. I thought then it was too dark and disappointing. I only ever owned 4 VHS tapes, all Disney features. They were all too dark, come to think of it. Never dreamed of actually monkeying with color and tint and brightness to achieve any kind of standard, though. I just plugged and played. Same for the DVD. Seemed kinda bright. Colors seemed a little...something. Whatever. Didn't really bother me much. Never really thought about picture settings.

Now I've got the BD, and I've finally had a chance to spend a little time with it. And my TV has been calibrated and recalibrated every time it's changed locations in the past few months. It's finally come to rest where I can watch the 32" screen from not quite 4' away, which is pretty close to optimal for field-of-vision immersion in recreating the theatrical viewing experience. I watched it in a darkened room. And I think it looks pretty amazing. I'm not going claim I remember the original theatrical experience well enough to debate the palette, but I never felt that experience was violated. It seems bright, yes--though I quit thinking that after my eyes were completely adjusted. But it's not just bright, it's *dark*, black-blackety blacks. Every so often I think I'm getting used to HDTV, and then I realize I'm astounded at the dynamic range of the reproduction in front of me. At that observation extends to the color. I saw nothing shocking or unnatural, ever. What I saw was rich and vibrant and consisted of a *huge* array of hues. Belle's hair, for example, is almost *always* affected by surroundings and the dynamics of the direct and/or indirect lighting as designed, some tint or shading in play, and honestly I quit trying to keep track of them---I saw traces of honey and peach and rose and deepest chocolate, depending on the circumstances, but there's no question she's a brunette. No pink pages. It was a different experience, but in no way opposed to what I think I remember I saw.

And when I got to "Be Our Guest"...that was a seminal Disney moment for me, seeing that in the theatre---it left the most profound impression of anything that's been done by the animation studio since Walt died, it was a crystallization of potential and standards that really set the bar for me for what I expected from the studio as an adult. Sitting in the best seat in the house, hearing it better than it ever sounded in the theatre, watching that brilliance unfold...*that* took me back. *That* was spot-on.

Only it was better.

My experience: I feel like I've seen more of this film than I've ever seen before. And I am pleased.

My opinion.
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Post by Disney Duster »

Okay...so...I just wanna know...

Is this what happened?:

They made Beauty and the Beast on the computer.

When transferring it to film, it looked different, especially darker.

So when they restored it for the IMAX release...they tried to make it look like it originally did, by making it brighter on the monitors or figuring out what to change so it looked the right way when it was on film? Or did they actually make it look how it originally did on the monitors the first time they made it, and just transfer that to the DVD, because the transfer to DVD didn't change the colors like the transfer to film did?

And why did the Platinum DVD look brighter and more washed out than this release? Did they do it again, and do a better job, for the Diamond?

Anyway...I agree that if only one release should be available, it should be the one they want, which it finally seem the Diamond is, but they also should really try, and almost need to, release the original version for those who want it.
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Post by tu »

enigmawing wrote:Given Disney's need to manipulate the colors of their films in order to cater to modern audiences, with a little help from Dora the Explorer I've managed to calculate what the 2016 Transparent Alumina Edition of Snow White will look like:

Image

I AM SOOO GOING TO BUY THIS EDITION when it's out!
for the first time ever
Snow White has never looked better!
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Post by Mr. Yagoobian »

Okay...so...I just wanna know...

Is this what happened?:
There is no one on this board who can answer those questions with any authority or credibility. That's the point.


There's no reason they should release the film in any condition other than how they want it seen. Anyone disinterested in authentic reproduction of the filmmakers' intentions can squint or poke themselves in the eye or---here's an idea---screw around with their picture settings to their heart's content.
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Post by MJW »

Mr. Yagoobian wrote:There is no one on this board who can answer those questions with any authority or credibility. That's the point.
I think you've hit the nail right on the head with that comment and your previous longer post. I couldn't agree more, but I am sure the the argument/discussion over the colors will not only continue but last long into the future, probably flaring up every time this film gets a new release. :(

For the time being I'm hoping we can all just move on and prepare ourselves for what will undoubtedly be the next battle...Fantasia/2000, albeit, this time about the features...or lack thereof... :wink:
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Re: wow

Post by Lorddh »

stitchje1981 wrote:
Lorddh wrote:wow, I can't believe people are still arguing about the dam colors...

Funny how people can act like CHILDREN!
Well I saw BATB last night on blu for the first time and I didn't see anything funny about the colors: the pages were white, the sheep brown, etc...

Lol, just don't read it Lorddh
Just relax and move on :)
Ignore the post you think are not worth reading 8)
Sheeeshh, I have been, but gosh , it just amazes me how silly people can be about insignificant things.

Why can't they just be like us? why?
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Post by TacoBravo »

2099net wrote:
Nonsense. Are you saying the Blu-ray releases of Pinocchio and Snow White and Dumbo look like Dora the Explorer?
Not so much.. and guess what.
The differences in those movies arent as drastic as the changes in BatB.
COINCIDENCE?!?!!?
See Im pretty reasonable.
Disney don't need to do anything to make Beauty and the Beast sell more.
Yet they did.
And in the second part of your post you talk about how color timing 'deliberately' changes all the time. So Im a little confused as to what point youre trying to get across.
I don't think he is saying this is a restoration - he's saying its a way for them to revisit the film. And as I said before, it their choice and their right to do so, because they made the film in the first place!
Thats fine. But youre the one spending the money, if you wanna be told how you should spend your money then thats your thing.
You know the DVD/Blu-ray source is the IMAX re-release, complete with some changes to the artwork.
It isnt. The platinum, Imax, and Blu ray are all different.
You know, David Fincher personally oversees the transfer of all his films to DVD/Blu-ray, including colour timing. So do many other directors. It's just Fincher makes a big issue of saying so in the publicity for the home video release.

Notice how Fincher's Se7en is different on the Allience Blu-ray (unsupervised) compared to the Warner Brothers Blu-ray (supervised)

http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film2/DVDRevie ... lu-ray.htm

Now, don't you think that that means

* It's pretty common for home video transfers to get colour timing wrong - much more common than you would think after all, if transfering a film to home format is just a case of pressing a few buttons, why would the director(s) get involved in the first place, and therefore

* The majority of home video has incorrect colour timing?

Look at comparisons on the DVDBeaver website, such as this
http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film3/dvd_revi ... nferno.htm

Who's to say which "colours" are right? There's some shots dramatically different, but would anyone know if they only saw (for example) the Anchor Bay Region 1 DVD?
You already made it clear whats 'correct.' Whatever the studio gives you.

In the real world people actually have an opinion.
Case in point. The French Connection blu ray. The movie was completely trashed in reviews cause of the DRASTIC change in color timing. The movie's cinematographer even calls the director an idiot for making the changes.
http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/1916/fr ... ction.html
But.. but.. its director approved so it MUST be right.
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Post by TacoBravo »

enigmawing wrote:Given Disney's need to manipulate the colors of their films in order to cater to modern audiences, with a little help from Dora the Explorer I've managed to calculate what the 2016 Transparent Alumina Edition of Snow White will look like:

Image
The first pic would be considered the 'Murkey edition' by BatB standards no?
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Post by Mr. Yagoobian »

In the real world people actually have an opinion.
Yeah. And in the real world, people get on the internet and feel like they can talk a lot of smack about subjects on which they're ignorant, and they feel entitled to commit libel under cover of anonymity because they won't be held accountable.
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Post by 2099net »

TacoBravo wrote:
2099net wrote:
Nonsense. Are you saying the Blu-ray releases of Pinocchio and Snow White and Dumbo look like Dora the Explorer?
Not so much.. and guess what.
The differences in those movies arent as drastic as the changes in BatB.
COINCIDENCE?!?!!?
See Im pretty reasonable.
Disney don't need to do anything to make Beauty and the Beast sell more.
Yet they did.
And in the second part of your post you talk about how color timing 'deliberately' changes all the time. So Im a little confused as to what point youre trying to get across.
What? I'm not saying it deliberately changes, just that its not an exact science - especially in the past when film duplication was a photochemical process. It's incredibly hard to match colour timing - even the same chemicals from the same supplier could result in different colours depending on the batch. It's the same as even today if you buy mulitiple pots of paint for decorating - generally you are advised to check the batch numbers.

If you mean the creators have apparently changed the colours for this release (and the previous DVD) than yes, I'm saying it was deliberate - as was their right to do so.
I don't think he is saying this is a restoration - he's saying its a way for them to revisit the film. And as I said before, it their choice and their right to do so, because they made the film in the first place!
Thats fine. But youre the one spending the money, if you wanna be told how you should spend your money then thats your thing.
You know the DVD/Blu-ray source is the IMAX re-release, complete with some changes to the artwork.
It isnt. The platinum, Imax, and Blu ray are all different.
The colours are - but the artwork isn't (beyond this Blu-ray apparently having some water stains removed from the background art).
You know, David Fincher personally oversees the transfer of all his films to DVD/Blu-ray, including colour timing. So do many other directors. It's just Fincher makes a big issue of saying so in the publicity for the home video release.

Notice how Fincher's Se7en is different on the Allience Blu-ray (unsupervised) compared to the Warner Brothers Blu-ray (supervised)

http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film2/DVDRevie ... lu-ray.htm

Now, don't you think that that means

* It's pretty common for home video transfers to get colour timing wrong - much more common than you would think after all, if transfering a film to home format is just a case of pressing a few buttons, why would the director(s) get involved in the first place, and therefore

* The majority of home video has incorrect colour timing?

Look at comparisons on the DVDBeaver website, such as this
http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film3/dvd_revi ... nferno.htm

Who's to say which "colours" are right? There's some shots dramatically different, but would anyone know if they only saw (for example) the Anchor Bay Region 1 DVD?
You already made it clear whats 'correct.' Whatever the studio gives you.

In the real world people actually have an opinion.
Case in point. The French Connection blu ray. The movie was completely trashed in reviews cause of the DRASTIC change in color timing. The movie's cinematographer even calls the director an idiot for making the changes.
http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/1916/fr ... ction.html
But.. but.. its director approved so it MUST be right.
[/quote]

No, what the studio gives you isn't necessarily correct. If it was, wouldn't all those DVD comparisons look the same?

Plenty of films are put on home video without director's involvement. Plenty are still put on DVD today from old, transfers created for VHS or LD or TV showings. None of which were done with the care and attention newer DVD and especially Blu-ray transfers get today - what was the point spending time and money on perfecting a transfer for a system which would have been displayed significantly compromised regardless of the effort put in?

And I've never said people can't have an opinion. Of course you can have an opinon, but that doesn't mean you have the right to accuse the people involved as lying. Or dumbing down their art simply for today's children or to make a quick buck. Don't you see the difference? Surely you can?

How can I stop anyone having an opinion? If you look back at my posts in this thread. I've described it as "disappointing". I personally don't object, but I can understand that others may and will be disappointed. However, its not an excuse to allow people to post what are basically slanderous and offensive remarks.

As for the French Connection, I've not seen it, but yes it generally regarded as a mess. The director isn't always right - nobody is always right, are you always right? - but I repeat again, he has the right to make changes should he desire to.

As you pointed out, you have the right to buy or not to buy whatever is released.
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Post by KubrickFan »

TacoBravo wrote:]Not so much.. and guess what.
The differences in those movies arent as drastic as the changes in BatB.
COINCIDENCE?!?!!?
See Im pretty reasonable.
I clearly remember several threads worth of complaining that Pinocchio looked different in its Blu-ray version when compared to the Laserdisc. The same thing happened with Peter Pan and Cinderella. Yes, they looked different, but that doesn't mean the Laserdisc was correct in those cases. The same thing goes for Beauty and the Beast.
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Post by Elladorine »

tu wrote:I AM SOOO GOING TO BUY THIS EDITION when it's out!
for the first time ever
Snow White has never looked better!
rotfl
TacoBravo wrote:The first pic would be considered the 'Murkey edition' by BatB standards no?
I'm sure my "restoration" came off to everyone as a joke, but I don't think the "Murky edition" is a fair comparison to make. Why?

Different eras, different sensibilities, different source material, different artists, different intentions. The creators working on Snow White had a certain look and palette they were going for, and the same can be said for those working on Beauty and the Beast. Just because the films were created from the same studio doesn't mean they were going the same direction with the colors.
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Post by MJW »

enigmawing wrote:The creators working on Snow White had a certain look and palette they were going for, and the same can be said for those working on Beauty and the Beast.
I agree, and not to venture too far off topic, but isn't it said that a softer set of hues were chosen for Snow White because the animators at the time weren't sure how long the human eye could "endure" animation? I'm assuming they might have related vivid colors with eye strain, and since it was the first full-length animated feature, they would have had no idea what the effects of long-term animation viewing would be, so it makes sense. I swear I've read/heard that somewhere...

Not saying that this is the ONLY reason they chose that palette, as I'm sure there is MUCH MORE to it that, both in terms of creativity and practicality. I find nothing wrong with Snow White's palette, and actually think it to be very fitting, so please don't grill me!!
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Post by RodryCroft »

Good news for Spain!!
Beauty and the Beast 3D version will be released on November 19th in Spain!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That means maybe more european countries will have the 3D version soon =)
I cannot be happier!!!!! When I see BatB 3D it will be only 5 days left to see Tangled!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://informemosdedisney.blogspot.com/ ... de-su.html
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Post by pap64 »

RodryCroft wrote:Good news for Spain!!
Beauty and the Beast 3D version will be released on November 19th in Spain!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That means maybe more european countries will have the 3D version soon =)
I cannot be happier!!!!! When I see BatB 3D it will be only 5 days left to see Tangled!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://informemosdedisney.blogspot.com/ ... de-su.html
That's a weird decision for Disney to make. Why release a 3D movie of a classic movie before the release of a new 3D movie?

Most importantly, why is Europe getting the movie before North America?
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