Visual differences between the old classics and the newer fe

[DisneyAnimation88]

If your suggesting that Disney didn't have sexist views, like those of society in the 1930's as a whole, what meaning did you get from that letter? I'm only asking as I don't understand where you stand on that point.

It has nothing to do with my ignorance as your suggesting, I simply asked if you could name female animators who had a standing in animation similar to the likes of Milt Kahl and Frank Thomas. I don't think there are, regardless of talent, that just seems to be the way it has always been in animation.

You can criticise Woolie Reitherman for reusing animation but ulitmately, he stepped up as a leader for animation when Walt died. Regardless of any mistakes everyone is entitled to believe he made, I think he was an important figure in a transitional period for Disney who helped to ensure that animation continued.

[The_Iceflash]

I think the Disney being sexist debate is a non-issue. During the years in question, according to society, the role of women were in the home. This wasn't something just men believed. Women also believed that their place was in the home. The men were seen as the breadwinner. In the 30s during the Great Depression, jobs were scarce. Animator jobs were scarce anyway and that on top of not many women being in the job market, was it such a shock that there were so few women animators then? I don't think it's right to call Walt himself sexist when it's not such a black and white issue. I don't think it's fair to criticize him personally for society's flaws.

[Goliath]

I think the Disney being sexist debate is a non-issue. During the years in question, according to society, the role of women were in the home. This wasn't something just men believed. Women also believed that their place was in the home.

You mean, women were brainwashed into this, using religion to justify their sexism.

Goliath, um, no, you still haven't proved he knew everything at his studio. And you still haven't proved he was sexist. I never said I proved anything

Neither did I; I just said your reasoning was wrong. And I explained why. And about Disney knowing what was going on around 1938: take your own advice and read some more, will you? You can start with The Illusion of Life and Hollywood Cartoons to begin with. And using your common sense, and ask yourself the question: would Disney know about the hiring policies of his own company?

Yes I agree women were a minority in animation, yet for some reason they still are today, so are we still sexist and "of the times"? No.

Society is incredibly sexist still.

@ DisneyAnimation88:

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[The_Iceflash]

I think the Disney being sexist debate is a non-issue. During the years in question, according to society, the role of women were in the home. This wasn't something just men believed. Women also believed that their place was in the home.

You mean, women were brainwashed into this, using religion to justify their sexism.

No one is talking about religion. Don't turn this into an anti-religious issue and/or rant. We're not talking about the origins of those gender roles in society either.

All I was getting at was it was society's fault, not Walt's fault personally, that there was a lack of women animators. It was hard to get a job in the 30s let alone a job as an animator. With so few women in the job market anyway, how many would we have actually seen applying for jobs as a animator? With jobs being competitive as they were, what were the chances of anyone got the job? If there's way more men then women applying with the same qualifications, chances are a man will get the job. That's just probability. I certainly can't fault Walt for that. I put the fault of that one on society for not giving women the opportunity to be as successful as men outside the home.

[Marky_198]

This is an interesting topic. I think about this a lot too.

There is a certain look to 2d animation nowadays that I can't describe.

Good examples are "The Little mermaid 3", "Bambi 2" and "The Princess and the Frog".

They look much flatter than the old classics. I think it has to do with the modern style of animation. It has a very computer generated look. While The original little mermaid looked very natural and organic, "Ariel's beginning" looks computer generated, cartoonish and not real.

There is a certain look in all of the old Disney clasics that really attracts me. A fluidity, an organic look, a real-ness. That look is just not there anymore.

[stitchje1981]

While The original little mermaid looked very natural and organic, "Ariel's beginning" looks computer generated, cartoonish and not real.

Nothing against TLM, It's my fav movie BUT almost at the end of the movie when Ariel finds out that prince Eric is going to get married ( with Vanessa) as she runs down the stairs you can clearly see the stairs are computerized.......
They' re too long and Ariel seems to float of the stair, the way she skips 5 or 6 steps and she's down in 1 second from such a HUGE stairway!
That scene is not naturally done and not real

[Marky_198]

I'm basically talking about the structure, look and movements of the characters, not the backgrounds.

But, you are right about that scene. It probably went down hill from there.....

[stitchje1981]

I'm basically talking about the structure, look and movements of the characters, not the backgrounds.

But, you are right about that scene. It probably went down hill from there.....

Oh ok, I thought backgrounds were included also

[DisneyAnimation88]

[quote]There is a certain look in all of the old Disney clasics that really attracts me. A fluidity, an organic look, a real-ness. That look is just not there anymore.[/quote]

I think one reason for that is the lack of technology, such as Xerox, in the early days of Disney. That meant animation took a lot more time to produce and the animators also had to ensure their work was up to Walt's standards of quality.

[Disney Duster]

Yea Woolie helped but, you can still criticize something you see should have been different.

Walt may not have known about the letter. It's always a possibility. Just sayin'.

I wasn't suggesting ignorance, but that you were ignoring what I was saying. I said there were more than one female animator, I was not saying their were any as big as the nine old men or Glen Keane and Andreas Deja today, but by that, it would suggest today is still sexist. However, Mary Blair was on the same league as Gustaf Tenggren and Eyvind Earle, if not bigger, influencing almost the whole look of so many films.

[DisneyAnimation88]

Ok, it's obvious we disagree over Woolie Reitherman, you're entitled to your opinion, as am I, so there's not much point arguing over it anymore.

The point about the letter is Walt Disney knew that the studio was telling women they were only going to be able to work in particular departments. He was famously involved in every aspect of the studio so it is highly unlikely a decision like that would have been made without his approval.

Again, we've debated the issue of female animators as far as we can. I personally don't believe that the Walt Disney Company is sexist today as it was in the 1930's, maybe I'm wrong, but I have said multiple times that I know the impact of women like Mary Blair on the history of Disney. I haven't ignored what you've said, I don't think anyone has, it is just that you have very definite opinions.

[Rumpelstiltskin]

I remember another example related to modern technology. When Hercules is fighting against the Hydra, and at the point when it has a guge amount of heads and necks, you can see that computers have been involved. If it had been done all by hand, it would have looked different.
Its not a complaint, just an observation. But it would have been interesting to compare the scene with one that was made the old way. Even if I realize that that would have meant more work, time and money.

[stitchje1981]

I remember another example related to modern technology. When Hercules is fighting against the Hydra, and at the point when it has a guge amount of heads and necks, you can see that computers have been involved. If it had been done all by hand, it would have looked different.
Its not a complaint, just an observation. But it would have been interesting to compare the scene with one that was made the old way. Even if I realize that that would have meant more work, time and money.

I forgot about that one, but indeed you can clearly see that it's all been done by computers. As well when they all look up when Hercules hits the wall and all the rocks fall down....
I think it would impossible to draw that by hand

[Goliath]

No one is talking about religion. Don't turn this into an anti-religious issue and/or rant. We're not talking about the origins of those gender roles in society either.

I was. You're abusing the old "well, society was like that"-meme to justify institutionalized sexism. I'm saying that's not an excuse. Even *if* women all felt like their place was at home with the kids, they were not really free to make that choice. They were conditioned to think that way, and that derives from religion.

All I was getting at was it was society's fault, not Walt's fault personally, that there was a lack of women animators.

Again, I call bullshit. If Walt had wanted to hire women animators, he could have done so, but he choose not to do it. He makes his own hiring policies, not society.

It was hard to get a job in the 30s let alone a job as an animator. With so few women in the job market anyway, how many would we have actually seen applying for jobs as a animator?

Women *did* apply for a job as animator, as proven by the letter enigmawing posted. But Walt turned her down. So why blame society for something Walt choose to do?

I certainly can't fault Walt for that.

Poor Walt! He always gets the blame for his own hiring policies!

[The_Iceflash]

No one is talking about religion. Don't turn this into an anti-religious issue and/or rant. We're not talking about the origins of those gender roles in society either.

I was. You're abusing the old "well, society was like that"-meme to justify institutionalized sexism. I'm saying that's not an excuse. Even *if* women all felt like their place was at home with the kids, they were not really free to make that choice. They were conditioned to think that way, and that derives from religion.

I'm NOT justifying institutional sexism. I was merely explaining how it was it was society's fault as to why there were few women animators at that time. It's not as black and white as this issue would be if we were talking about other jobs. The fact was, Walt was getting substantially more applications from men than women for animator positions. No one can argue that. Unless Walt used gender as a qualification (which it shouldn't be a qualification), because more men were applying, more men were hired. Walt hiring someone *because* they are a woman is just as bad as hiring someone *because* they are a man. Gender should never be a reason for hiring. If I'm getting more applications from men than women, I'm not going to hire a woman simply because she's a woman.

I'm not touching the religious issue because I don't want to fan an anti-religious rant. I've read the "What's your religion?" thread and I'm not about to encourage it.

All I was getting at was it was society's fault, not Walt's fault personally, that there was a lack of women animators.

Again, I call bullshit. If Walt had wanted to hire women animators, he could have done so, but he choose not to do it. He makes his own hiring policies, not society.

Can you prove he used gender as hiring qualifications?

It was hard to get a job in the 30s let alone a job as an animator. With so few women in the job market anyway, how many would we have actually seen applying for jobs as a animator?

Women *did* apply for a job as animator, as proven by the letter enigmawing posted. But Walt turned her down. So why blame society for something Walt choose to do?

Was her gender the reason why she wasn't hired? If there are 50 applications turned in for an animator's job and 45 are from men and 5 are from women, if qualifications are the same, probability shows that a man will get the job.

I certainly can't fault Walt for that.

Poor Walt! He always gets the blame for his own hiring policies!

Unless you can prove gender was a hiring qualification nothing more can be said.

[Goliath]

@ The Iceflash: Obviously you haven't READ the letter. Enigmawing has posted it, it is here for you to read. It specifically mentions Disney doesn't hire WOMEN as animators. If you had read it, you wouldn't have to ask it three times.

[The_Iceflash]

@ The Iceflash: Obviously you haven't READ the letter. Enigmawing has posted it, it is here for you to read. It specifically mentions Disney doesn't hire WOMEN as animators. If you had read it, you wouldn't have to ask it three times.

But even Enigmawing said they aren't accusing Disney of being sexist in light of it.

I am in no way accusing Disney to be sexist (although I've been accused in the past for attempting to discuss this same letter) as I do realize those times were different, and certain traditions and beliefs were upheld.

I was just trying to add some reasoning (not justification) to their actions.

[DisneyAnimation88]

I think that letter is proof enough that at least in 1938, the Walt Disney Companyhad sexist views when it came to the hiring of female animators. A company as well-known and in the public eye could not have taken such a viewpoint without the consent and knowledge of it's founder.

That being said, I don't think this necessarily makes Walt Disney sexist. He obviously had faults, but the truth about him has been stretched and distorted by all of the biographies and myths written about his life. No one can really claim to have known the "real" Walt Disney apart from close friends and family, none of whom would criticise him to the extent others have. I think his main fault as an employer was his naivety; he saw his company almost as an extended family and expected his employees, men and women, to feel the same. There are cases, such as Mary Blair, where women gained his favour through extraordinary talent but he generally seemed to prefer the company of his animators and producers, his "boys" as he referred to them. Ultimately, if Walt had wanted to employ women as animators, he could easily have done so. Does that mean he personally belittled women and thought that their talent was inferior to men? I personally don't think so.

[stitchje1981]

From what my teachers told me years ago when the subject Walt Disney Studios came up ( I'm talking like 10 yaers back, when I still went to school) was that Walt was kind of a sexist...

He believed that an animator is a "man's job" and could never be properly done by women. But to make it up, so he won't discriminate the women, he hired them all for the coloring jobs because there are more color blind men then women, so that would make them perfect for coloring cells or something!
But even then they were discriminated 'cause by the age of 30 or 35 most of them were fired because of their age they started to shiffer more and could mess up the coloring!!!!

[Disney Duster]

Woolie Reitherman completely copied old animation. How can we not criticize that?

We still don't know for sure if Walt knew about the letter. Prove that he did if you want to talk about it more.

But back around I think the animator's strike, Walt was talking about a bunch of up and coming female artists, I remember a lot working on Fantasia, and some animating. Walt also said he felt if a woman could do the same job as a man, she should get paid the same. But I suppose Walt just didn't feel he saw many women who did the kind of job he was looking for. I doubt he knew about the letter, since he did after all hire some women animators.

And it is not just at Disney. We don't here of many famous women animators anywhere. The film industry is still dominated by men.