The Future of Disney Animation

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not2foul
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Post by not2foul »

Kyle wrote:^ Lilo and Stitch wasn't good and original enough for you? that was the last one in my eyes. (Actually I liked Brother Bear too, but I know Im in the minority with that, and it obviously borrowed from many other Disney movies)
Lilo and Stitch is actually growing on me, it certainly was original, it just didn't appeal to me, but it was certainly a great effort, that alot of people here like, just not my cup of tea :)

I liked Brother Bear as well, but I don't think it was up to "The Classics" Standard, and like you said it borrows from many other Disney movies, which I think is there main problem at the moment.

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Post by singerguy04 »

I believe there is a market for 2D as long as the story behind the film is worth-while. We can say that TPatF and Enchanted were examples of that, but I think they relied to heavily on nostalgia. I do believe that TPatF is a great film that got critic's acclaim, but just didn't seem to catch on to the public. That, IMO, is due to the underwhelming audience appeal of the cheapquels.

I don't think it's fair to really point fingers and blame one thing all together. The cheapquels however seem to have been a major contender in 2D's demise. They set hand-drawn animation up as child's entertainment. Their cheap funding made them less creative. That made an impression on consumers and on their original films. I don't think that the cheapquels really hurt the original films, but it does take an effect on the general public's opinion of the film and the company. On top of that, they made so many of them. If Lassater wouldn't have stopped it, I'm sure we'd eventually see a sequel for every film in the cannon.

I think there is a positive thing about all of this though. I think it's going to make those animators and people inside the company that care for WDAS really dig deep to try to create something special. They need to do it to save 2D from becoming something of the past. It's becoming one of those do or die moments that WDAS has faced before. I'd say I hope that their luck hasn't run out, but their greatest work had nothing to do with luck. It had everything to do with actually tapping into the talent that was already there.
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Post by Disney Duster »

Super Aurora wrote:
Disney Duster wrote: There is a difference between animating the world, trying to make it realistic in some ways and fantasy in other ways (i.e. Bambi), and making an animated film...about an animated format and fake virtual digital world such as a video game.
Not really. Disney/pixar already has Toy Story: a story about toys. What make VG an exception and shouldn't be animated by Disney?
Pixar is not Disney and Toys have come to life in previous Disney movies because Toys are seen as innocent things of childhood where kids use their imagination and they are more real and touchable and organic and there was the fairy tale the Velveteen Rabbit. It is different from a video game. You can try to argue against it all you want with whatever reasons and logic you want but it will not replace the feeling it is not something Disney, or at least not Disney animated feature film, at least especially Walt Disney.
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Post by Super Aurora »

Disney Duster wrote:
Super Aurora wrote: Not really. Disney/pixar already has Toy Story: a story about toys. What make VG an exception and shouldn't be animated by Disney?
Pixar is not Disney and Toys have come to life in previous Disney movies because Toys are seen as innocent things of childhood where kids use their imagination and they are more real and touchable and organic and there was the fairy tale the Velveteen Rabbit. It is different from a video game. You can try to argue against it all you want with whatever reasons and logic you want but it will not replace the feeling it is not something Disney, or at least not Disney animated feature film, at least especially Walt Disney.
the opposite can be said against you. You can argue all you want that VG isn't "disney material", but fact of matter is, you don't know that for sure and only making judgment base on your own personal opinion.

All i'm saying is don't make judgment that some won't work or is acceptable because you don't think Walt would accept it. You don't know that. That's what i'm saying.

Also,that whole organic feeling stuff is a bunch of BS. Disney can make whatever the fuck they want to make or wish to make.
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Post by Goliath »

DisneyJedi wrote:And by the way, if The Princess and the Frog was a supposedly "bad" movie, then how did it get glowing reviews and become moderately successful in terms of financial earnings? It earned back a little over $104 million, and was some thousands short of its $105 million budget. Its theatrical gross doesn't include DVD/Blu-ray sales or overseas numbers, totaling it- unless I'm mistaken- to practically $300 million.
Because the audience is stupid. Remember how well The Chipmunks movies made? Hugely succesfull. Much, much more succesfull than PatF. Would you use that same logic and say that, therefore, the Chipmunks movies are the better ones? Of course not! You'll only use that false "it's popular, so that means it's good" kind of logic when it serves your argument. Popularity has zero to do with the quality of a movie. But, *if* you want to follow that argumentation, you're *still* wrong. Because, as you said yourself, PatF didn't even make back its budget domestically. That's a bomb to today's standards. And overseas revenues and dvd sales are generally not included when measuring financial succes. Plus, yóu'd still have to extract the marketing budget, which you didn't include in the $105 million dollars.

So, no, PatF was not a good film and it didn't do well.
not2foul wrote:[...] Somewhere between Lion King and now, they have lost that formula. Flooding us with heaps of money grabbing cheapquels, watching other studios success and trying to copy of them. Now they are trying to copy off their pass success, instead of making a new movie that they want to see themselves.
Spot on!
not2foul wrote:[...] I really don't think it has anything to with 2d vs 3d, but more to do with a good story, and quite frankly, the last really good story Disney did was Emperors New Groove.
Awww, too bad, you tripped over your own logic there. Emperor's New Groove is a perfect example of Disney trying to imitate other studios. The movie that came after it, Lilo & Stitch, did exactly what you want them to do: make original, unique movies they want to see themselves.
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Post by not2foul »

not2foul wrote:[...] I really don't think it has anything to with 2d vs 3d, but more to do with a good story, and quite frankly, the last really good story Disney did was Emperors New Groove.
Awww, too bad, you tripped over your own logic there. Emperor's New Groove is a perfect example of Disney trying to imitate other studios. The movie that came after it, Lilo & Stitch, did exactly what you want them to do: make original, unique movies they want to see themselves.[/quote]

Not sure I tripped over my own logic just stating an opinion, its just Emperors New Groove appealed to my sense of Humor, not so much Lilo and Sticth, but your point is taken :)

I probably should have gone with Lilo and Stitch in my original post, but as I stated later, Lilo and Stitch diidn't really do it for me, but it is growing on me the more I watch it, and I can appreciate the originallity of it.

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Post by Goliath »

not2foul wrote:Not sure I tripped over my own logic just stating an opinion, its just Emperors New Groove appealed to my sense of Humor, not so much Lilo and Sticth, but your point is taken :)
Well, everybody's got different tastes, of course.

But don't you think Emperor was too much of an imitation of other studios, with its very particular kind of comedy?
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Post by Wonderlicious »

Ooh, another debate. :p

On the subject of 2D animation having exited the spotlight like B&W films have, I wouldn't say so just yet. Even with the supposedly tepid business it did make, the takings of The Princess and the Frog would have seemed a miracle back in 2003/4, and enough in the way of merchandise got sold for DCP to be happy. And I would say that now the glut of 2D animation originating in the 90s is over and there's less of a novelty when it comes to CG films, a lot more people seem more receptive to traditional animation. And each medium of animation has enough in the way of advantages and disadvantages for one never really dying out or fading from the spotlight altogether.

And now, onto the subject of identity crisis. I personally think that there are two reasons for the spot of bother and identity crisis that Disney is in at the moment. One is due to corporate decisions of the past ten to fifteen years. Cheapquels are my main culprit (as singerguy said, they really went overboard circa 2001-6, and most people don't have a wide-enough knowledge to know the exact same studio that makes the proper features isn't making these films), and I also want to target sterile merchandising of older entities in one group (read: Princesses). Equally as important is Disney becoming a victim of own success. Beauty and the Beast and The Little Mermaid were unprecedented box office triumphs, and have become beloved classics even though only two decades old. Equally, the older Walt-era fairy tales have remained just as popular. There have been so many people who have come to expect more princess fun, that Disney is expected to give in to their nostalgia and do just that; I did really like The Princess and the Frog, but it didn't really update the pretty princess formula at all for new audiences in the same way that The Little Mermaid, Aladdin and Beauty and the Beast did. And the fact that Disney chose perhaps a completely wrong audience when trying to diversify in the early 2000s (teenage boys, who didn't exactly flock to Treasure Planet or Atlantis) seems to justify on a corporate level the idea for producing "what they know best". Of course, the Princess line has made everybody more than ever think of a film involving princesses and the like as an excuse for merchandise or a vehicle for the colour pink, and we end up with Rapunzel controversially being renamed Tangled after a film called The Princess and the Frog didn't get as enthusiastic response as hoped, and with plans for more "fairy tale" films (read: THE SNOW QUEEEEEEEN) being scrapped.

I'm not so much against making films based on fairy tales and fantasy stories, but I do think that Disney should not focus on doing princess-based fairy tales if they want to keep that particular genre alive while guaranteeing box-office success, as there's the potential of retreading the same ground too much too soon. Make films based on contemporary fantasy novels, or traditional stories that don't involve princess protagonists (interestingly, The Snow Queen is one such story, at least in Andersen's original). After Snow White, Walt made two more films dabbling in the faerie - Pinocchio and Fantasia - but they hardly retread the same ground; the former is based on an original fantasy novel inspired in part by folklore, while the latter is a series of animated tone poems, some of which happen to be based on fantasy and folklore. It would take quite some time before Cinderella and Sleeping Beauty came out, and for quite a long time, Alice in Wonderland, Peter Pan and even The Wind in the Willows got greater priority than Cinderella on the schedule based on the grounds that they wouldn't be a retread of the whole Grimms' Fairy Tale formula (and for the record, I think that Cinderella and Sleeping Beauty take enough different approaches to not feel like remakes of Snow White, and The Little Mermaid etc updated the pretty princess formula well enough for their own era). And of course, any type of film is welcome as long as it is well made and doesn't go for too narrow an audience (one who may be too fickle for Disney animation anyway); 101 Dalmatians is an entirely different type of film both visually, musically and plot-wise compared to Sleeping Beauty, just as Bambi and Dumbo are to Snow White and Pinocchio and Lady and the Tramp is to Peter Pan and Cinderella. But all of them work, because they're well made. I don't understand why people hate Lilo and Stitch and see it as such a travesty to the Disney name. It certainly aims itself at general audiences (as opposed to niche markets like with Atlantis and Treasure Planet), and I don't think that the overall end product looks un-Disney (it's all round the typical Disney style with a slight flair of something else).

And I'll say it again about Joe Jump/Reboot Ralph. Though I think that it seems a thin concept for a whole animated feature on paper, I won't write it off just yet. And Walt not approving of video games? Well, they weren't even around when he was alive, so we can't judge. And perhaps he'd be a fan of Mario Kart. ;)
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Post by Super Aurora »

Wonderlicious wrote: And perhaps he'd be a fan of Mario Kart. ;)
Who wouldn't be? Mario Kart is one of the most enjoyable games I've played, especially Mario Kart wii.
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Post by Wonderlicious »

Super Aurora wrote:
Wonderlicious wrote: And perhaps he'd be a fan of Mario Kart. ;)
Who wouldn't be? Mario Kart is one of the most enjoyable games I've played, especially Mario Kart wii.
Ha ha. Mario Kart for the N64 was part of my childhood, and I've also played the SNES and Gamecube versions (though I've never played the Wii version). On a tangent, I'd always wanted Disney to do anarchic Mario Kart style games (racing, tennis, soccer, mini games etc) featuring an ensemble of well-known Disney characters (the main characters from the Mickey Mouse universe, plus a few characters from the features), with themed sets based on Disney films and shorts. Of course, we did get this, but it supposedly only featured three renowned characters (Chip, Dale and Jiminy Cricket), and was generally a little lame and sterile according to a lot of gaming magazines that I used to read back in the day. :p
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Post by not2foul »

Goliath wrote:
not2foul wrote:Not sure I tripped over my own logic just stating an opinion, its just Emperors New Groove appealed to my sense of Humor, not so much Lilo and Sticth, but your point is taken :)
Well, everybody's got different tastes, of course.

But don't you think Emperor was too much of an imitation of other studios, with its very particular kind of comedy?
Not at the time, because I kind of stopped watching Animation for a while, and Tarzan kind of brought me back to Disney. So when I saw Emperors, I had only just seen Tarzan, I was part of a very early advanced screening, my mate worked for Disney Animation Sydney, and brought me along. So I don't really know of any other movie it was imitating? I guess some of the Dreamworks efforts maybe, but most of the ones I could think of came after.
Are there any in particular you thinking of? I must admit I'm a bit stumped, because I thought Emperors was quite original? Maybe just me?

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Post by estefan »

not2foul wrote: Are there any in particular you thinking of? I must admit I'm a bit stumped, because I thought Emperors was quite original? Maybe just me?
Well, it does have a Chuck Jones/Animaniacs-type sensibility in its writing, but considering I'm a big fan of both, you won't hear any complaints from me. Emperor's New Groove is one of my favourite Disney animated films.

Also, unlike most everyone on this thread, I think Disney is currently having a nice revival quality-wise. I greatly enjoyed Enchanted, Bolt and Princess and the Frog and while they may not have made DreamWorks-Pixar numbers, they still decent business. Considering The Princess and the Frog was a hand-drawn film and it was released a week before Avatar, it was always going to have an uphill battle after years of people being used to seeing CGI on the big screen. So, it did fairly well, considering.
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Post by Goliath »

estefan wrote:Well, it does have a Chuck Jones/Animaniacs-type sensibility in its writing,
That's what I was thinking about.
estefan wrote:Considering The Princess and the Frog was a hand-drawn film and it was released a week before Avatar, it was always going to have an uphill battle after years of people being used to seeing CGI on the big screen. So, it did fairly well, considering.
I wish people would stop making up excuses for a very weak film.
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Post by Scamander »

I wish people would stop talking about their own opinions as if they were facts.
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Post by estefan »

Goliath wrote:
estefan wrote:Considering The Princess and the Frog was a hand-drawn film and it was released a week before Avatar, it was always going to have an uphill battle after years of people being used to seeing CGI on the big screen. So, it did fairly well, considering.
I wish people would stop making up excuses for a very weak film.
So, does that mean Alvin and the Chipmunks is fantastic because it made so much more money? :roll:
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Post by Goliath »

Scamander wrote:I wish people would stop talking about their own opinions as if they would be facts.
Then we'd better shut down this forum. Or you could just not put words in my mouth.
estefan wrote:
Goliath wrote:I wish people would stop making up excuses for a very weak film.
So, does that mean Alvin and the Chipmunks is fantastic because it made so much more money? :roll:
*REALLY, REALLY, REALLY BIG SIGH*
Goliath wrote: Because the audience is stupid. Remember how well The Chipmunks movies made? Hugely succesfull. Much, much more succesfull than PatF. Would you use that same logic and say that, therefore, the Chipmunks movies are the better ones? Of course not! You'll only use that false "it's popular, so that means it's good" kind of logic when it serves your argument. Popularity has zero to do with the quality of a movie. But, *if* you want to follow that argumentation, you're *still* wrong. Because, as you said yourself, PatF didn't even make back its budget domestically. That's a bomb to today's standards. And overseas revenues and dvd sales are generally not included when measuring financial succes. Plus, yóu'd still have to extract the marketing budget, which you didn't include in the $105 million dollars.
It's on the same page! You only had to READ it before you went through the trouble of rolling your eyes.

PatF didn't do badly because it was up against Avatar. There's always competition. If a film can only perform well when there's no competition, then what does that say about the film? That people will only watch it when there's nothing else. *That's* what it says. And you're using it as (one of the many) excuses why the film performed badly.

And yes, that's an entire different discussion altogether, than the debate popularity/quality.
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Post by DisneyJedi »

Scamander wrote:I wish people would stop talking about their own opinions as if they were facts.
I know! But for some reason, certain people like to talk down to anyone who happen to like certain films, but the certain person doesn't. :x
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Post by Disney's Divinity »

DisneyJedi wrote:
Scamander wrote:I wish people would stop talking about their own opinions as if they were facts.
I know! But for some reason, certain people like to talk down to anyone who happen to like certain films, but the certain person doesn't. :x
I agree.

Of course The Princess and the Frog is far from Disney's shining moment, but it's hardly a "very weak" film. It's easily much better than Tarzan or Atlantis, and nearly on par with Mulan. It fits well alongside the post-Jungle Book, pre-Mermaid films, in terms of quality (in my opinion). Just because it wasn't a knock-out doesn't mean it was bad.
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Post by milojthatch »

Goliath wrote:
DisneyJedi wrote:And by the way, if The Princess and the Frog was a supposedly "bad" movie, then how did it get glowing reviews and become moderately successful in terms of financial earnings? It earned back a little over $104 million, and was some thousands short of its $105 million budget. Its theatrical gross doesn't include DVD/Blu-ray sales or overseas numbers, totaling it- unless I'm mistaken- to practically $300 million.
Because the audience is stupid. Remember how well The Chipmunks movies made? Hugely succesfull. Much, much more succesfull than PatF. Would you use that same logic and say that, therefore, the Chipmunks movies are the better ones? Of course not! You'll only use that false "it's popular, so that means it's good" kind of logic when it serves your argument. Popularity has zero to do with the quality of a movie. But, *if* you want to follow that argumentation, you're *still* wrong. Because, as you said yourself, PatF didn't even make back its budget domestically. That's a bomb to today's standards. And overseas revenues and dvd sales are generally not included when measuring financial succes. Plus, yóu'd still have to extract the marketing budget, which you didn't include in the $105 million dollars.

So, no, PatF was not a good film and it didn't do well.
not2foul wrote:[...] Somewhere between Lion King and now, they have lost that formula. Flooding us with heaps of money grabbing cheapquels, watching other studios success and trying to copy of them. Now they are trying to copy off their pass success, instead of making a new movie that they want to see themselves.
Spot on!
not2foul wrote:[...] I really don't think it has anything to with 2d vs 3d, but more to do with a good story, and quite frankly, the last really good story Disney did was Emperors New Groove.
Awww, too bad, you tripped over your own logic there. Emperor's New Groove is a perfect example of Disney trying to imitate other studios. The movie that came after it, Lilo & Stitch, did exactly what you want them to do: make original, unique movies they want to see themselves.
BUT, PatF was a critical darling, even named the best animated film for 2010 in TIME Magazine. The problem when you get into the argument of what makes a good film is that everyone will have a difference of opinion, becuase everyone is different and has different tastes.

Personally, I think PatF was WAY better then any of the crappy CGI Chipmunk films and have no idea why it didn't do that well. It was every bit as good as any of the 90's Disney Animation. Let's keep in mind however that a number of the Disney Animated Classics bombed horribly on tehir original theatrical releases (Sleeping Beauty, Pinocchio) and yet now are some of the most beloved and cherishes films EVER. I predict PatF will end up like that in time. But, while we wait for that to happen, what is to be done with 2D animation now, as Disney wants results yesterday?

I hope they stick with their old promise of going back and forth between 2D and 3D, but I'm not holding my breathe. Modern Disney is ticking me off more and more as time goes on and I find myself caring less and less about what they do or don't do...
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Post by jpanimation »

estefan wrote:Well, it does have a Chuck Jones/Animaniacs-type sensibility in its writing, but considering I'm a big fan of both, you won't hear any complaints from me. Emperor's New Groove is one of my favourite Disney animated films.
Well, considering Mark Dindal used that style earlier in Cat's Don't Dance, he was really copying himself. Either way, Lilo & Stitch and The Emperor's New Groove are really the only good DACs to come out this decade.
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