Beauty and the Beast: Diamond Edition (October 5th!)

[Disney Duster]

^ Does that explain why Beauty and the Beast's colors have changed more than any other CAPS films? NO?

Does that explain how on the same DVD, we saw Beauty and the Beast in different colors in bonus features than from the feature presentation? NO?

Then I guess that didn't explain the problem either and they really are messing with the colors, a conclusion we keep coming to.

[rodis]

^^Even without the NTSC issue, we knew VHS and old TV sets presented a relatively shaky picture with sometimes fuzzy colors but that STILL doesn't mean the movie looked completely different because of that. Please, that's laughable. We're talking about an entire movie, not a single frame.

[funloops]

I'm going to throw some fuel on the fire...

What do you color nuts think of this? I tried to match the older laserdisc shots that are posted everywhere.

http://comparescreenshots.slicx.com/comparison/82465

[Old Fish Tale]

I wish it looked like so...

[BwayJ]

DisneyChris meant, that this shot belongs in the Special Edition, but is part of both versions in this new Diamond Edition.

I wonder how that will look if the work-in-progress version shows the correct shot.

[JustOneBite87]

Last night a friend of mine was kind enough to take me to see the movie at the El Capitan here in L.A. It was a sing-a-long and Belle came out and danced around a bit before the film began hahaha

Being very familiar with the Platinum Edition colors, I was very pleased to immediately notice how much darker and richer in tone the version was I saw last night. For the first time in over a decade the opening sequence didn't look like Belle's Magical World and the sheer amount of detail and dimension that the high definition projection yielded was astounding. I have not enjoyed the movie so much since I saw I was a child! There were many kids and adults alike in attendance.

Yes, the chairs were not a dark brown but that red-maple tone as shown in the screen caps, but the entire presentation of the film felt spot-on to me and I just can't see how anyone would not be satisfied with the cooler tones of this presentation.

Also worth noting is that the version shown was the original theatrical cut, sans human again an with all the original animation intact. I was so pleased! The film just flows so much better without that added number...

[JustOneBite87]

Also, for those of you who have complaints about Belle's reflection in the window. It's on screen for less than a second and even on a huge movie screen, looking for the reflection to show up and knowing how it looked from the screen caps on this thread, it was not noticeable in the least. It adds a touch of realism and was a very nice addition.

[JustOneBite87]

Well, most people are!

The Special Editions sold much more than the DVDs he put out with the original versions on. Many, many, many times more.

The only reason the special edition DVDs sold more was because they came out 2 years before the original cuts were released on DVD and the average DVD consumer who bought the set didn't know anything except for the fact that they wanted the original star wars movies on DVD. Those same consumers obviously did not care enough to purchase them again for the theatrical cuts.

[jpanimation]

... so it turns out we were all wrong! Not only is Belle black, but the Beast is a green monster and Lumiere had arm and legs.

Now we know where Shrek came from (sans wiener). Katzenberg must think his involvement in Beauty and the Beast entitles him to steal ideas. Do what you do best Disney, sue...

I hope this will qualify as a "thoughtful post."

It certainly does. Now that I've seen the LaserDisc in it's entirety (last night), the colors look glorious BUT it suffers from the deficiencies of NTSC, infrequent artifacts/print damage from using a film print as it's source (as opposed to the direct digital CAPS), the picture is slightly unstable and of course it lacks the resolution that Blu-ray can produce. Even with all that against it, the colors give a heightened dramatic intensity from the realism as opposed to the fantastical colors in the more recent editions. With that said, I think these give a good representation of what the original theatrical colors most likely were but they certainly aren't exact.

Also, I think there was some confusion as to what I was saying. I was saying the Human Again footage seen in the IMAX trailer and the Platinum Edition trailer has the same colors seen in the LaserDisc. Same with the production stills for the Human Again sequence. I never said the sequence, as it is on the Platinum Edition, has different colors from the rest of the movie on the Platinum Edition. This is important, as it implied the brand new Human Again sequence was animated with the LaserDisc colors and then changed to what we see on the Platinum Edition (and now the Diamond Edition) at the last minute.

References I made were to...

IMAX trailer 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXFrI8pHP5E

The ballroom sequence that keeps a very similar color scheme to the LaserDisc but is from a significantly newer and cleaner source that doesn't suffer from NTSC. I feel these are probably the best representation of the original colors there is (although, I liked Beast's darker jacket in the LaserDisc).

IMAX trailer 2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=herCuCHSR2s

Same as above; colors are very similar to the LaserDisc (even the new Human Again sequence), picture is from an all-digital source with no NTSC, but the ballroom differs from the one seen above (it looks more like the one in the Inter-Stitch-als, also an all digital source from the same exact time this was made).

Platinum Edition trailer 1:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJOoEQAs ... re=related
Platinum Edition trailer 2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAciSDNXObE
Platinum Edition trailer 3:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vvc8GEPX ... re=related

All old footage in these ones are from the LaserDisc print transfer while all the new footage for Human Again is from the CAPS source. They blend seamlessly together, which should say something.

I'm going to throw some fuel on the fire...

What do you color nuts think of this? I tried to match the older laserdisc shots that are posted everywhere.

http://comparescreenshots.slicx.com/comparison/82465

Looks more like the IMAX trailer then the LaserDisc (Beast's jacket was darker) but it still looks really good. Your post makes me sad at the thought of what could've been.

[BwayJ]

Last night a friend of mine was kind enough to take me to see the movie at the El Capitan here in L.A. It was a sing-a-long and Belle came out and danced around a bit before the film began hahaha

Being very familiar with the Platinum Edition colors, I was very pleased to immediately notice how much darker and richer in tone the version was I saw last night. For the first time in over a decade the opening sequence didn't look like Belle's Magical World and the sheer amount of detail and dimension that the high definition projection yielded was astounding. I have not enjoyed the movie so much since I saw I was a child! There were many kids and adults alike in attendance.

Yes, the chairs were not a dark brown but that red-maple tone as shown in the screen caps, but the entire presentation of the film felt spot-on to me and I just can't see how anyone would not be satisfied with the cooler tones of this presentation.

Also worth noting is that the version shown was the original theatrical cut, sans human again an with all the original animation intact. I was so pleased! The film just flows so much better without that added number...

How many people sang along and how annoying was it?

[jpanimation]

I'm going to throw some fuel on the fire...

What do you color nuts think of this? I tried to match the older laserdisc shots that are posted everywhere.

http://comparescreenshots.slicx.com/comparison/82465

I tweaked the colors just ever so slightly to more closely reflect those of the LaserDisc version, since I assume that was the goal here:


Click the thumbnail for full HD image.

Damn this movie would've looked amazing in HD with the original colors.

[Mr. Yagoobian]

This is important, as it implied the brand new Human Again sequence was animated with the LaserDisc colors and then changed to what we see on the Platinum Edition (and now the Diamond Edition) at the last minute.

No, that's not what's implied. Where's a trailer meant to be seen? At the theatre and on TV. For theatrical distribution the trailer was finished on the medium appropriate to the viewing environment: film. To be seen on TV in 2001, <b>the trailer had to be distributed in a form compatible with the NTSC broadcast standard</b>---and that's what got put on the DVD release as bonus material.

You keep insisting that a viewing experience in the domain of a system that has been proven to be the least capable of providing the most accurate representation of the source has, in fact, produced the most authentic representation of that source. Look at the images again



and offer a cogent explanation why a system that's going to do <i>that</i> to digital imagery is more accurate to the theatrical release than the Diamond Edition release---which workflow never had to depart the digital domain, which requires the least compression from the original source, which is capable of the greatest image resolution and color fidelity in representing that source than any home media format to date.

You're ignoring the facts about the underlying technology, you won't admit that your nearly twenty-year-old impressions of the theatrical presentation are highly subjective and possibly mistaken. What if there's a moment in the Diamond Edition commentary when Musker & Clements & Hahn say that this is the home media release that they've been waiting for, that the new BD offers the most faithful reproduction of their film that's ever been made available to the home consumer? Will you claim that you know better? Will you insist that they're lying?

[MattDean]

I'm going to throw some fuel on the fire...

What do you color nuts think of this? I tried to match the older laserdisc shots that are posted everywhere.

http://comparescreenshots.slicx.com/comparison/82465

I tweaked the colors just ever so slightly to more closely reflect those of the LaserDisc version, since I assume that was the goal here:


Click the thumbnail for full HD image.

Damn this movie would've looked amazing in HD with the original colors.

I haven't got my copy of the Blu yet but I'm not put off by this ongoing colour issue. If the colour does bother me, and I really don't expect it to, I'll just turn the colour down on my set!

Matt:)

[funloops]

I'm not dissatisfied with the current look at all. The conversation just got me reading about color grading and I was wondering if it were possible to "push" the colors back to the other direction in order to look like the LD rips that people are talking about. It's just for fun.

I'm happy that they didn't go for the teal + orange combo that most movies are getting these days.
http://theabyssgazes.blogspot.com/2010/ ... -stop.html

[Disney Duster]

and offer a cogent explanation why a system that's going to do <i>that</i> to digital imagery is more accurate to the theatrical release than the Diamond Edition release---which workflow never had to depart the digital domain, which requires the least compression from the original source, which is capable of the greatest image resolution and color fidelity in representing that source than any home media format to date.

Then what about other bonus features on the DVD? Like the brand new documentary made just for the DVD? That didn't have to be taken from film or put into NTSC! And that looked more like the original colors.

[Mr. Yagoobian]

Then what about other bonus features on the DVD? Like the brand new documentary made just for the DVD? That didn't have to be taken from film or put into NTSC!

Netty already addressed this issue.

The feature is <i>the feature</i>, the most important element of the release and the most time- and effort-intensive to prepare, and it's highly unlikely they waited until the new master for the first-ever digital media release of the film was complete before they commenced production of bonus material. It is far more likely that they had to use what they had on hand when they started production on the bonus materials, which would have been the intermediary source used for replicating the '92 VHS and laserdisc.

Assertion dependent on supposition: the DVD is brighter, more vibrant, and more saturated than the analog releases; therefore the company <i>must</i> tweaked the source.

Fact: Placing the content on VHS and laserdisc <b>necessarily</b> darkens, dulls, and de-saturates the source.

[filmmusic]

I'm going to throw some fuel on the fire...

What do you color nuts think of this? I tried to match the older laserdisc shots that are posted everywhere.

http://comparescreenshots.slicx.com/comparison/82465

I tweaked the colors just ever so slightly to more closely reflect those of the LaserDisc version, since I assume that was the goal here:


Click the thumbnail for full HD image.

Damn this movie would've looked amazing in HD with the original colors.

I completely agree! You Did a GREAT job!!
How about making all frames of the movie like this? hehehe

[jpanimation]

No, that's not what's implied.

Yes it is. No amount of NTSC deficiencies would do that, simple. Please explain why the original trailers with the Human Again sequence advertised featured the LaserDisc colors for that sequence but the later trailers with the Human Again sequence advertised featured the Platinum Edition colors. Wouldn't both trailers be suffering from the same problems brought on by the NTSC broadcasting standard or does NTSC only conveniently effect the trailers and sources you want it to (with the purpose of lending credibility to your argument)? Why would press images for the Human Again sequence reflect the LaserDisc colors, if those colors are ONLY a product of the NTSC broadcasting standard? Why would the colors in The Princess and the Frog trailer be exactly like the LaserDisc ones (only with the brightness cranked up)? Was the HD trailer posted on the internet also suffering from the NTSC broadcasting standard?

I’ve compared Tarzan’s original theatrical trailer and DVD trailer to a VHS copy, DVD copy and HD broadcast. No difference in colors between any of them. Why is it Beauty and the Beast is the only CAPS film to change colors?

Look at the images again

I did. While the colors bleed and blur the image, overall, they're effectively the same. The ribbon hasn't suddenly become purple and the wrapping paper hasn't suddenly become yellow. Even your extreme example of NTSC hasn't explained Beauty and the Beast.

What if there's a moment in the Diamond Edition commentary when Musker & Clements & Hahn say that this is the home media release that they've been waiting for, that the new BD offers the most faithful reproduction of their film that's ever been made available to the home consumer? Will you claim that you know better? Will you insist that they're lying?

George Lucas claims the special edition of Star Wars is the most faithful to how he originally envisioned and William Friedkin claims his revised color timing on The French Connection is closest to how he originally envisioned. Who's to know if they're lying, they're probably not, but just because they changed their minds on decisions made years ago doesn't mean that's how it originally looked or that it's better.

[Prince Edward]

I tweaked the colors just ever so slightly to more closely reflect those of the LaserDisc version, since I assume that was the goal here:


Click the thumbnail for full HD image.

Damn this movie would've looked amazing in HD with the original colors.

I completely agree! You Did a GREAT job!!
How about making all frames of the movie like this? hehehe

I'm also sad that we won't see a Blu-ray edition like this with the orginal colors. (But perhaps Disney will come to their senses and release a proper version in the future...)

The fact that Beauty and the Beast is the only CAPS film to change colors so drastically supports the claim that the colors we got on the Platinum edition and the colors we get on this Diamond edition is not the orginal colors. I'm amazed that so many people seem to deny that there has ever been a change in the colors. And all the people telling other people to shut up and stop discussing the colors also amazes me. I thought we were on a Disney discussion forum where people discussed in a civilized manner, but some people have obviously run out of valid arguments.

And I have to say: I love Disney and I love Beauty and the Beast. I will get this new release, just as I got the Platinum edition back in 2002 and just as I will be getting all upcoming releases of it. The amount of quality bonus material on both the Platinum and the Diamond edition is amazing, and the movie looks good and is a good movie in all it's presentations, but it could have been even better if presented in the orginal colors. The dark colors enhanced my viewer experience because they made the movie look much more serious and beautiful. Belle as I remember her have dark, dark hair, and there is indeed shadows in the castle.

I will say no more about the colors then the following: Please check out the IMAX-trailers for BATB. If everyone did that, we should not been having this argument about the colors.

[dvdjunkie]

Hope all of you "so-called critics" that really aren't, watched Challenge on the Food Network tonight (Sunday). The theme was "Beauty and the Beast" and one of the judges was one of the original artists from the Disney studio who worked on "Beauty & The Beast". It was a really good show and his comments regarding the cakes that were presented for judging were very spot on.

I think the Blu-ray version of "Beauty and the Beast" will be as true to the original print as can possibly be. Since I really love this movie and my grandkids really know all the music really well I am looking forward to its release on October 5th.