Fantasia/F2K: 2-Movie Collection Discussion: Nov. 30, 2010

[Wonderlicious]

OK surely nobody was seriously expecting this release to be unedited?

I think that the idea of Fantasia being unedited is a lot of people's pipe dream. They wish it would happen, but they know deep inside it won't, and will nonetheless moan when it never happens.

I wouldn't let this put me off getting the new DVD/Blu-Ray though. One can moan all they like, and I renounce it to an extent, but it doesn't do too much to change the film for better or worse anyway; a few seconds slightly changed is admittedly not like the "Martins and the Coys" being edited out of Make Mine Music (generally too drastic), or having Pecos Bill in Melody Time and Cowboy Goofy in Saludos Amigos have their cigarettes digitally removed while Jose Carioca in the same film can smoke to his heart's content (hypocritical). I'd compare the changes in Fantasia to Rapunzel being renamed Tangled as part of a marketing ploy; it's questionable, but it's not a change so drastic that it's worth boycotting completely.

[miniroll32]

How long is this debate going to go on for? Relax and move on Just look at the clips and be glad we have this wonderful restoration.

[DiscoDan]

Disney is now a premium brand. They're just not going to risk bad feedback by including these scene just to satisfy a narrow audience of collectors.

Well said.

Disney has done a remarkable job at keeping ancient movies relavent and appealing to generation after generation. If that means making a 2 minute sacrifice, then that's what they're going do. We have to remember that Disney is branded for children. As a childless adult, an unedited version would be fine for me... but to be honest, if I did have children, I wouldn't want that scene in there. It's a small part, but very awkward to watch. I don't think it's a bad thing to try to forget a racist history.

[Wonderlicious]

I've found 8 short clips of the final restored footage!!

http://www.imdb.com/video/screenplay/vi2414282265/

IMDB of all places...

Don't be surprised about IMDb. They often have a lot of the DVD/Blu-Ray preview clips (both for the film and for some of the bonus materials) up a good few months before the debut. In fact, they also have some clips up for Beauty and the Beast, including some of the bonus features:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0101414/videogallery

As for the Fantasia footage, I like it overall. The colours remind me of the 1990 restoration (that would be the version of Fantasia I grew up on).

Permission to fist myself? I think I at least deserve some kudo's for this little doozy... Pleasssee?

Will a pack of six Mini Rolls do?

[Raphdude]

Hi all.

This is my first post. Huge Disney and Fantasia Fan here.

I had the pleasure of meeting and speaking with Don Hahn at a D23 event on the Burbank Lot last May when the animation building was dedicated to Roy. I asked him specifically about the Fantasia restoration and he told me that it looks "phenomenal" , it's coming in November/December and that Disney pulled out all the stops on Fantasia and went back to the original nitrate negative to restore it and did a full 4K hi-def scan.

I found an additional article that confirms this-(link at bottom):

Restoring Classic Animation
If you think you’ve seen classic Disney cartoons as they were originally screened, think again. Walt Disney Studios executives Sara Duran-Singer, senior vp, worldwide post production, and Theo Gluck, director of library restoration and preservation, gave a dramatic demonstration of the value of going back to the original elements—even if that’s volatile nitrate film.

Disney Studios is in the middle of a multi-year project to do full 4K scans and full digital clean-up, working closely with Lowry Digital for restoration. Fantasia is currently getting the full digital treatment, the 10th title thus far. For the first time in decades, Disney is going back to the nitrate negative, which is between 50 and 75 years old in many cases. Though some nitrate has deteriorated beyond salvation or is missing, the elements available, after a 4K scan, have revealed a level of detail in each cel previously not seen.

“The big breakthrough was putting up the original nitrate negative and scanning it,” says Gluck. “The sharpness is there that you don’t have from the intermediate transfer. The line detail and line art is much more visible. Also the background is more detailed. The other thing that became apparent was the color shifts of all that intermediate stock. We had to do weeks of research to find the real color for our D-Cinema timing. We looked at original backgrounds and cels, pored over books, worked with animators. We got true color accuracy by going back to that original nitrate.”

The results have to be seen to be believed. After a day of focusing on the latest in technology, it was a humbling reminder of the beauty and longevity of film.

Link to article:


http://www.studiodaily.com/main/news/he ... 11958.html

In short, it will be awesome!!!!!!!!

Lastly, I think that one reason Disney has been unusual in its distribution of Diamond titles this year is due to that they want to have the "family" market covered, which they will with BotB and Toy Story 3. Although Fantasia I'm sure will sell lots of copies, it just isn't a kid oriented title. It bored the pants off of me as a kid, but I sure love it now!

[miniroll32]

Precisely. Lowry charge around $230,000 a pop for these restorations and to suggest that a purchase is now in the balance just because of a few zoomed in scenes is ridiculous. Nothing that anyone says is going to change the final outcome so we might as well just enjoy it.

Can you imagine in 1969 people having a big moan when they came out the theatre because the scenes were changed? No, they'd be pleased. Although I would like to the scenes in their original format, the Centaurs in question don't contribute to the films narrative, therefore Disney have taken a seemingly sound action.

[jpanimation]

or having Pecos Bill in Melody Time and Cowboy Goofy in Saludos Amigos have their cigarettes digitally removed while Jose Carioca in the same film can smoke to his heart's content (hypocritical).

Imagine if Disney zoomed in on Pecos Bill's eyes instead of digitally removing the offensive cigarette? Now you know where I'm coming from. As for hypocritical, the centaurettes have no nipples but the harpies in the same movie do.

I don't think it's a bad thing to try to forget a racist history.

Isn't it that kind of thinking that gets Song of the South in trouble? There's a difference between putting the past behind you and moving on (hopefully learning from mistakes and being a better person) and just re-writing history to try and pretend something didn't happen.

On a side note, am I really the only person who's bothered by the Corey Burton re-dub? It's just aggravating that they throw out the surviving elements that were used all these years.

[Raphdude]

One thing I forgot to mention is that I think that Disney is looking to make sure Fantasia is preserved for ALL time, so that there always will be a Fantasia to watch.

[miniroll32]

One thing I forgot to mention is that I think that Disney is looking to make sure Fantasia is preserved for ALL time, so that there always will be a Fantasia to watch.

They should freeze it then, with Walt Disney

[Raphdude]

One thing I forgot to mention is that I think that Disney is looking to make sure Fantasia is preserved for ALL time, so that there always will be a Fantasia to watch.

They should freeze it then, with Walt Disney

LOL!!!!!!!!!

P.S. Thanks miniroll32, for the clip links! Can't wait to get home to watch them!

[miniroll32]

No problem Raphdude!

P.S - I'll get started on freezing them Blu-Rays all for research purposes, course...

[TheSequelOfDisney]

just to satisfy a narrow audience of collectors.

A large portion of Fantasia's audience, to be sure

Adults who are into these art house films and collector's are the main demographic (Disney knows this and released the first DVD to cater to that audience with the supplements and extended Roadshow version). To be honest, this film bored me, as a kid, almost as much as Alice in Wonderland, The Sword in the Stone, Saludos Amigos and The Three Caballeros did (and still does). No way in hell is a soccer mom is going to pick this up to babysit little Johnny or little Suzie. It's too long, the subject matter can get pretty adult, and kids just don't like it (outside of The Sorcerer's Apprentice).

Thank you! There ya go. I know that it may seem like a minimal cut to some of you on here, but it seems really drastic to me. This is far from a "children's movie." It is definitely geared to the more artistic and mature audiences. No parent would buy this because a child would be bored to death watching it. This isn't a so-called "classic" Disney film. This was Walt going out on a limb to produce something that he truly believed in. Though he was superbly brilliant, I feel that he wasn't thinking so much about the audience, but more of about his personal involvement and love of an animated film that blended art and music. I don't even think that he had a film that was geared towards the entire family (except for the more fun segments, such as Sorcerer's Apprentice, Dance of the Hours and parts of Nutcracker and Pastoral Symphony). It just seems irresponsible to just shut this animation away. It might not be critical to the piece as a whole, but that doesn't mean that the collector's (the main market of this film, and it's sequel/continuation, specifically) shouldn't have the original version. I, too, believe that the parts of Deems Taylor that still remain should be inserted back in and find a better match than Corey Burton. I watch the sound and the mouth movements of Mr. Taylor, and they never seem to perfectly match. I can't express enough that this was a marvelous opportunity to finally show the original version of the film. Instead, Disney picked the safe route so that by the sheer chance that a soccer mom will pick it up, they won't be offended by a few shots of an African American centuarette. I still think it's just plain wrong and the whole situation is a missed opportunity. I love the restoration, but the few instances where they could really please the fans who want the whole version were completely looked over in order to make the film look as kid friendly as possible (which is truly disgusting). Hopefully one of the Disney representatives that have registered on here will read this because this release will definitely make those who want the entire Fantasia experience (sans Fantasound) disappointed/mad.

[tlc38tlc38]

Ok, I'm actually in the middle on this discussion. All I'm going to say is that children actually could care less what is on TV, all they see is bright colors flashing before their little eyes. For this to be considered "an adult film", gives it all the more reason for it to be edited. Think about it....the adults ARE the ones who pitch a fit and cry racism at the drop of a pin.

Here's the facts:

CHILDREN: innocent, see things as they should be seen.
ADULTS: corrupted, stretch things WAY out and bend the things that shouldn't be bent in the 1st place.

I don't want to offend anyone with this statement, but you gotta admit, it is nothing but the truth.

IMO what it boils down to is Disney not wanting to get sued. If someone can sue McDonald's AND WIN a lawsuit against coffee being hot, you know some idiot would sue Disney for this or for a cigarette in Meldoy Time (I think it's in that movie).

[Rudy Matt]

just to satisfy a narrow audience of collectors.

A large portion of Fantasia's audience, to be sure

Adults who are into these art house films and collector's are the main demographic (Disney knows this and released the first DVD to cater to that audience with the supplements and extended Roadshow version). To be honest, this film bored me, as a kid, almost as much as Alice in Wonderland, The Sword in the Stone, Saludos Amigos and The Three Caballeros did (and still does). No way in hell is a soccer mom is going to pick this up to babysit little Johnny or little Suzie. It's too long, the subject matter can get pretty adult, and kids just don't like it (outside of The Sorcerer's Apprentice).

Who gives a damn? Animation is not a children's medium, Fantasia is not a film for children, Walt Disney didn't make films for children. He made all kinds of movies, for everyone. Who cares what kids think of Fantasia?

[David S.]

On a side note, am I really the only person who's bothered by the Corey Burton re-dub? It's just aggravating that they throw out the surviving elements that were used all these years.

No, you're not the only person. I certainly have nothing against Corey Burton, but I was really hoping they could somehow restore all the original Deems Taylor audio in time for this release!

When the first DVD set came out, I passed on this, because of the edits and missing audio. I was already ticked about the butchery done to Make Mine Music earlier that year, which I also had to pass on. Since I was just starting my collection of DVDs, and had access to the VHS, at the time I thought, "If I buy this now, I'm going to just have to buy it again if they ever release it uncensored and with the proper audio".

And then of course when it was announced in 2003 that it would be part of the "Platinum Collection", that was seeming confirmation that an ever better release would be coming so ever since then my focus regarding this title was even more on waiting for Fantasia and not bothering to get that first edition.

Now I wish I would have bought that first set, because I seriously doubt all the bonus features will be carried over to the new DVD version, and I'll probably end up having to "double-dip" anyway - on the new DVD version for the Lowry restoration and any new bonus features that might be on there, as well as tracking down a copy of the original 3-disc set, to get whatever bonus features don't get carried over.

Getting a bit off topic (but maybe not since Make Mine Music and Melody Time have been called "a poor man's Fantasia") I really wish those two films, as well as Fun and Fancy Free and Ichabod and Mr. Toad, would get re-releases with AT LEAST "Martins and the Coys" restored to it's rightful place leading off Make Mine Music. The new versions could also get an audio upgrade from the plain mono to a nice 5.1 surround stereo mix, as I think these are the last DACs left in just mono, which is a shame given the musical nature of these films! I'm sure the potential new releases would have a slipcover, as well!

[Kyle]

I'll be asking for this for Christmas. It'll be interesting for me, because this will be my first time seeing either Fantasia. Sure Ive seen clips and artwork from them, but never the whole thing. I put off buying the dvd version because I wanted the anthology set, but never came up with the money. right around the time I would have been able to get it, we get word that the blu ray should be coming up in a few years. fast forward to today, I'll finally get to see it. I hope I like it. Im not even sure if it'll be my cup of tea. as much as I love animation, the lack of any kind of dialogue and being music based has me unsure how much I'll enjoy it.

[Heartless]

I STILL don't see how this could possibly come out this year at all.. no formal announcement, no cover art, nothing remotely close to a release date advertising on trailers (and the general lack of advertisement in general).. The rumored date is what, like a little over 3 months away? Just don't see it.. but I've been wrong before and hopefully this is another of those times.

[MutantEnemy]

I STILL don't see how this could possibly come out this year at all.. no formal announcement, no cover art, nothing remotely close to a release date advertising on trailers (and the general lack of advertisement in general).. The rumored date is what, like a little over 3 months away? Just don't see it.. but I've been wrong before and hopefully this is another of those times.

Well, I see your point. But think about Toy Story 3's release date announcement. It was announced this month for a November release, 3 months apart. So I think that in order for us to get the Fantasias this year, it will have to be announced by the first week in September at the latest, otherwise it isn't going to happen. This is all speculation and I think that we should at least wait until September before we worry too much.

[MJW]

Disney Studios is in the middle of a multi-year project to do full 4K scans and full digital clean-up, working closely with Lowry Digital for restoration. Fantasia is currently getting the full digital treatment, the 10th title thus far.

Sorry to back this topic up a bit, and I apologize if this is common knowledge to others, but does anyone have the list of the 10 films that Lowry has restored so far? Also, is Disney in contract to only work with Lowry on their restorations at this time? Thanks!

[KubrickFan]

I disagree. It is far from "small and insignificant." I find that it completely detracts from the Pastoral Symphony. I mean, hello, there are parts of the symphony cut out because they just "had" to cut Sunflower. It's totally disturbing how we won't be able to see the entire film. From a fan/collector's stand point it doesn't make any sense at all. Just let Leonard Maltin speak in front of the film telling us about the racial issue that was ocurring in the 1940s and then just show the whole film. I'm probably one of the biggest fans of Fantasia on this forum and I think it's ludicrous that we won't be seeing a complete Disney Animated Classic. Oh, sure, we can show breasts (Night On Bald Mountain, Pastoral Symphony, The Nutcracker Suite) but we aren't allowed to see the three places that Sunflower occurs. It's just totally annoying and completely unprofessional. I guess I should have seen it coming; Disney has been spiraling for awhile now in the production of worthy collector's items (Treasures, actual Collector's Edition DVDs/Blu-rays, etc.). I'm just at a loss as to why we can't see the film the way it was intended to be seen. I've seen Sunflower online (in black and white), and the racial issue is there, but I highly doubt that children would notice. And collector's will be happy. Just get Maltin to have an intro to the film and we would be all set. Or at least (the very, very, very least) give us the Sunflower animation as a bonus feature (or just insert it into the film). I'll probably still purchase it, but every time that I get to Beethoven's 6th, I'll probably become highly enraged/saddened.

You're right that it should've been included, but the sequence isn't cut. They just zoomed in part of the image to remove the black centaurette, so that the music wouldn't be cut anymore.
Disney easily could have included it. Make it optional, so that people who don't want to see it don't have to (they could have recolored her, if they want) and give the fans of the original version what they want. It's that simple.