The Princess and the Frog Discussion - Part III

[Disney's Divinity]

Personally, I like all the songs, but Dig a Little Deeper sorta shrunk on me. The Lyrics are "preachy" in the sense that they make Tiana seem stupid not to notice what Mama Odie is trying to say.

More preachy than, say, "Colors of the Wind"?

To be honest, I agree that the music is weak in this film. I just find it strange that anyone would call "Dig A Little Deeper" the worst when it's the only one that anyone can remember without the CD in the background.

I'm just very depressed that Anika Noni Rose wasn't put to better use. She did as much as anyone could do with "Almost There." Just wish she'd had a Menken diva-ballad. That would've been incredible.

But I'm really lost as to how TP&TF has come to be an inferior film. I thought it was a very powerful one. It may have its flaws, but I don't remember any of the '90s films being perfect. Is there a perfect film? I've barely met ye.

[Goliath]

I watched parts of the film in the Dutch dub yesterday (mainly the songs and some dialogue from every character).

It was BAAAAAAAD! Seriously. Most of the time, the Dutch can make a pretty impressive dubbing, but I cringed at this one. All the voices were totally off. This is not a question of taste: the voices did not match the characters. The worst was Tiana: in Dutch, she sounded like she was only 10 or 11 years old. She sounded like a little child. Naveen had no accent at all (like the 'English' Naveen has an accent to make him sound 'foreign'). Dr. Facilier had a voice that was not nearly as low and 'dark' enough, like Keith David's. He sounded far too polite'he spoke too correct. There was no menace in his voice.

The only good Dutch voice was that of Mama Odie. She matched the character perfectly and she also approached the original very closely. But I won't be watching this film again in any other language than it's original English.

[Prince Edward]

I watched parts of the film in the Dutch dub yesterday (mainly the songs and some dialogue from every character).

It was BAAAAAAAD! Seriously. Most of the time, the Dutch can make a pretty impressive dubbing, but I cringed at this one. All the voices were totally off. This is not a question of taste: the voices did not match the characters. The worst was Tiana: in Dutch, she sounded like she was only 10 or 11 years old. She sounded like a little child. Naveen had no accent at all (like the 'English' Naveen has an accent to make him sound 'foreign'). Dr. Facilier had a voice that was not nearly as low and 'dark' enough, like Keith David's. He sounded far too polite'he spoke too correct. There was no menace in his voice.

The only good Dutch voice was that of Mama Odie. She matched the character perfectly and she also approached the original very closely. But I won't be watching this film again in any other language than it's original English.

This applies to the Norwegian dub as well! Norwegian dubs of Disney movies are usually were good, but many voices did not suit the original voices on this dub. Tiana was dubbed by some singer who can't act, prince Naveen had no accent and Facilier did not sound scary enough. Ray, Louis, Charlotte and others were good though!

[Disney Duster]

The Princess and the Frog was NOT as powerful as the Renaissance films. One things for certain was the music wasn't as powerful. But even the story. Guess what feminists, Tiana fighting to have her own restaraunt is NOT as powerful or as important as finding love or another, better world.

But even without those, the film, the whole film, was just not as powerful as the others.

I think you will know why I posted this, from Animated Views:

When we began the film we read a number of treatments that had been written over the years when the studio was considering doing an animated version of The Frog Prince. One of them by Dean Welins and Chris Ure, two story artists, who had the idea of a firefly who fell in love with the Evening Star. We love that idea and thought it fit the theme of love conquering even the most impossible obstacles. We thought he should be a Cajun. While we were down in New Orleans researching the movie, we went on a tour of the bayou and had a gap toothed Cajun tour guide who fed alligators over the side of the boat. His name was Reggie and when we later wrote the script we had him in mind. We also thought he could sing a wistful Cajun waltz to his star. The name Evangeline came from a Nathanial Hawthorne poem about a Cajun woman named Evangeline who wandered in search of her lost love.

It still could reference Uncle Tom's Cabin, but I do not think so just because of what they said. But then again magic at Disney may have worked more connections than they intended.

[DisneyJedi]

The Princess and the Frog was NOT as powerful as the Renaissance films. One things for certain was the music wasn't as powerful.

You know, I am getting SO fed up with everyone putting down on the music in the movie! I don't give a damn if it's supposedly all "opinion-based"! Whenever someone discusses the movie, the only thing I see getting complained about is the music and Randy Newman, with crap like his music "stinks" or "Alan Menken should have done the music!"

I'm sick and $%#@*&! tired of hearing everyone complain about it or saying it was the weak factor! And just to let you know, I loved the music and I like Randy Newman's jazzy musical ways! There! I stated my opinion! Don't like it? TOUGH!!!!

[aurum-femina]

One thing I loving the most about the movie right now is how it has inspired a lot of great fan videos on YouTube!

A long time ago, I had noticed some of the videos linked in this topic were mine. (The Michigan J. Frog ones, the one set to Fireflies by Owl City, etc.)I'd wanted to sign up a while ago so say thank you, but my username here took a little while to get approved. So I wanted to say now thank you so much for liking them! :)

I still love this movie. The animation itself was a wee bit disappointing, but I figured Disney's just a little rusty. I know people aren't usually fond of the songs, but I really enjoyed them. :)

[DisneyJedi]

One thing I loving the most about the movie right now is how it has inspired a lot of great fan videos on YouTube!

Hey, I believe I'm one of those YouTubers who was influenced! I even made a few fandub scenes from the movie!

Louis the Alligator Dub (Warning: The first few Louis lines are LOUD!): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPnz1Gep ... re=related

Gator Down! Louis and Ray dub: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRpiOzHpWTo

Ma Belle Evangeline Fandub Collaboration With Fellow YouTuber, SonicHearts15 (me as Ray, Louis and Naveen, and SH15 as Tiana): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOdqQmQtWRg

BTW, I gotta say the PatF vids set to Fireflies are pretty much perfect matches.

I still love this movie. The animation itself was a wee bit disappointing, but I figured Disney's just a little rusty. I know people aren't usually fond of the songs, but I really enjoyed them.

Well, this is Disney's first time doing a full-fledged hand-drawn movie in YEARS! Oh, and I loved the music, too. Even if it was done by Randy Newman.

[UmbrellaFish]

The Princess and the Frog was NOT as powerful as the Renaissance films. One things for certain was the music wasn't as powerful. But even the story. Guess what feminists, Tiana fighting to have her own restaraunt is NOT as powerful or as important as finding love or another, better world.

But even without those, the film, the whole film, was just not as powerful as the others.

I hate to agree, but I do (although I think the death of Ray touched me more than other movie-goers). The moment it was announced Maddy/Tiana's goal in the film was to open a restauraunt, it felt a little lackluster, and it is. I don't think it slows the progress of the film, but it's not the type of thing that would have been in a Renaissance movie. At the same time though, I think we had unrealistic expectations for this film. To us, TPATF was a return to form, to the great tradition of animation.

While it had been years since the release of a big, traditionally animated film, the public obviously didn't notice. If you watched Oscar telecasts you saw 2-D animation from other countries, and commercials still used 2-D animation, especially cereal commercials. What the public saw was just a new princess movie, not a new traditionally animated film.

On the subject of music- it is weaker. I felt for a long time it was unfair to say Menken could have done a better job, but I do feel now that he could have. There's nothing so special about the music that it immediately captivates you, which is a shame because if the music had been more memorable, I think the film would have done even better box office.

Eh, but discussing this is sort of like beating a dead horse, isn't it?

[DisneyJedi]

On the subject of music- it is weaker. I felt for a long time it was unfair to say Menken could have done a better job, but I do feel now that he could have. There's nothing so special about the music that it immediately captivates you, which is a shame because if the music had been more memorable, I think the film would have done even better box office.

Eh, but discussing this is sort of like beating a dead horse, isn't it?

Well.... I could be wrong, but I think the directors of TPatF intentionally chose Randy Newman b/c his music sounded jazzy.

I honestly do tend to get annoyed when people say that Alan Menken should have done it when I thought Randy Newman did a great job. Besides, Menken had his hands full with Enchanted and Tangled.

[tsom]

The music was amazing!!!! Honestly, I'm glad Newman did it and not Menken, and I love Menken's music!. Menken isn't the god of all Disney music. There are other people suitable for the job in my opinion.

The movie itself was powerful to me! Tiana had a great goal. It may seem lackluster, but just imagine being not just a woman, but an African-American woman trying to open an upscale restaurant in the south back in the 1920s. It's almost impossible, but Tiana aimed to go against people's thoughts and opinions and worked hard to make her dream come true. Falling in love with a prince was just a bonus.

[UmbrellaFish]

Well.... I could be wrong, but I think the directors of TPatF intentionally chose Randy Newman b/c his music sounded jazzy.

I honestly do tend to get annoyed when people say that Alan Menken should have done it when I thought Randy Newman did a great job. Besides, Menken had his hands full with Enchanted and Tangled.

Your right in that the directors picked Newman, which is why I don't fault Lasseter in the decision of choosing him. But certainly Menken could have handled a "jazzy" soundtrack. Newman did the best job he could, but personally I think Menken could have been even better.

Speaking about Menken having his hands full, here's all the stuff he worked on from 1989 to 1995, courtesy of Wikipedia-

The Little Mermaid, 1989
Rocky V, 1990 (single song)
Cartoon All-Stars to the Rescue (single song)
Beauty and the Beast, 1991
Weird Romance, 1992
Newsies, 1992
Aladdin, 1992
Home Alone 2: Lost in New York, 1992 (single song)
Life With Mikey, 1993
Beauty and the Beast, 1994
Pocahontas, 1995
A Christmas Carol, 1995

And that's a mix of film, television, and Broadway. I'm sure that as a professional he rather have more work than none.

[blackcauldron85]

The music was amazing!!!! Honestly, I'm glad Newman did it and not Menken, and I love Menken's music!. Menken isn't the god of all Disney music. There are other people suitable for the job in my opinion.

The movie itself was powerful to me! Tiana had a great goal. It may seem lackluster, but just imagine being not just a woman, but an African-American woman trying to open an upscale restaurant in the south back in the 1920s. It's almost impossible, but Tiana aimed to go against people's thoughts and opinions and worked hard to make her dream come true. Falling in love with a prince was just a bonus.

I feel the same way. Menken is my favorite composer BY FAR, but I LOVE the soundtrack- it's definitely one of my favorites. I don't think there's anything lackluster at all about Tiana's goal. I mean, cooking was her love, and so it shouldn't be seen as lesser than other princesses wanting love. I mean, other goals:

Snow White: hoping to find the man of her dreams
Cinderella: to go to the ball and experience a night of non-torture
Aurora: um...to meet a man. I think even just meeting anyone.
Ariel: to experience the human world
Belle: to get out of her small town
Jasmine: to marry for true love
Pocahontas: to help relations between the Powatans and the English
Mulan: to take her dad's place in the army
Tiana: to open a restaurant

Very few of those goals are about love, so why is Tiana's any less than any of the other's? I mean, sure, who doesn't want to fall in love, so, as tsom said, that's a bonus.

[UmbrellaFish]

I speak for myself, but I think the major problem with Tiana's goal is it's less relatable, not necessarily less romantic. Most people can relate to wanting to break out of their normal world, ala Ariel, or wanting to help a loved one so much that you'll do anything for them, ala Mulan, or just wanting to fall in love like various other princesses, but not everybody can relate to having aspirations of opening a business like Tiana (although you could argue her goal is similar to Mulan's in that she was inspired by her father's own failed goal). And in the movie, her poverty (not so much her ethnicity) is touched on very lightly, primarily at the beginning.

To me, though, that's a minor, minor nitpick.

[Jules]

http://www.cartoonbrew.com/disney/matt- ... l#comments

This is an important post that details animator Matt Williames' experience at WDAS while working on TPatF. He didn't like it. Clearly the studio environment is still incredibly far from the ideal.

Note: I would like to comment before anyone reads or comments on this topic below that the intent of this post is NOT to bash anyone at Disney Animation, or the Princess and the Frog. As I wrote below my issues were not with any individual but rather the larger system, establishment, and current direction of Disney Animation. I have worked at several big studios and I feel this response to my time there comes from a deep love for what the original Disney stood for. I have worked at far worse studio, but some far better. But none with the legacy and responsibility that Disney owns due to it’s name. So as you read this know that my intent is coming from a heart that wants to see change, not one with malicious intent to damage the Disney name. I have no desire to offend or start any war via “Cartoon Brew” or whatever public site people frequent. My ONLY desire to see Disney recognize how far they have fallen because quite honestly I think we all care quite a lot about the studio that a guy named Walt started don’t we?

So I suppose I should start this post by explaining the unposted “Disney Experience” post I discussed a few months back. I wrote about 3 versions of the post and just never found the balance of honesty and tact that I wanted. I either said too much that was unnecessary, or not enough to give a true flavor of my experience at the studio. That being said I’ll try to sum it up this way. I believe any studio should be at least these three things (but particularly Disney):

- A place with amazing films that challenge and inspire their artists.
- An environment of camaraderie (with the crew) where people are challenged and inspired to grow.
- An environment of active education and study.

Bluntly, Disney fails on all 3 counts. The thing I want to get clear is the thing I miss about Disney is the people… there are some wonderful/amazing people there whom I miss very much.
But that being said it is the general set up and direction of the studio that I take issue with.

On the first count “A place with amazing films that challenge and inspire their artists”, this is fairly straight forward to me. Frog was an ill-conceived film and a lot of us knew it. The entire concept with the film was to go back to the past. That is suicide. And it obviously was at the box office. I believe there is too much talent at Disney to be waisted on such silliness.

The second point, “An environment of camaraderie (with the crew) where people are challenged and inspired to grow.” This is also fairly straight forward. This does tend to come down to the individual attitude of the crew member for which I am not necessarily attacking. I more take issue with the “Star animator” mentality that Disney is so good at pushing. If you don’t know what I mean how often do you hear about Dale Oliver? Dale was Frank Thomas’ assistant for a long time, and honestly he made Frank look VERY good without getting any credit himself. Find some of Franks original ruffs, they are nothing to marvel at. Look at what Dale did with them… amazing assistant work. But you never hear about him. Disney has the horribly destructive idea that there are a few “star” animators and everyone else is not as good and should be in a support role next to them. Translation? If they think you are not of star calibre then you get crap shots. Frankly, how dare they assume what you are capable of particularly when they have never given you a chance to show what you can do. This I think was one of the more difficult things to deal with at Disney.

And lastly “An environment of active education and study”. Honestly to their credit there are several classes to take and things they “encourage” you to be apart of. But honestly when people around you are getting fired for not going fast enough then you don’t exactly feel welcome to take the time necessary to invest in these classes. I could see being apart of these things if you were single and living at the studio, as many of the artists do, but refuse to sell my life and deprive my family of a father and husband for the sake of an ill-conceived film that will ultimately be forgotten someday.

This may sound harsh, but this was simply my experience at the studio and if you couldn’t tell I was highly disappointed. Since I have been gone I have felt more artistically fulfilled then I ever did at Disney… I have seen way more of my family, worked on far more personal films and in general just grown much faster as an artist. I only write this review of my time at the studio, not to bash them out of spite, but to speak up! So few people say what they really think, and that is partly why Disney continues down the road that they are on. Disney needs to hear from people that have been apart of their “family”… there is strength in numbers and frankly, people with much harsher (and truthful) things to say than I have just now. I sincerely hope Disney discovers the value of people and how they treat them along with finally making a film worth making.

[Disney Duster]

First of all...

Okay, I don't want to get anyone mad, but I just gotta say it.

Alan Menken would have made a more powerful film score. He just would have. Have you listened to most of Newman's stuff? It's quiet and mellow!Alan Menken could have done jazz, he can do any style. I don't care if you liked Newman's score. Menken would have made a more powerful one.

Next, I didn't just say the other princesses wanted love, they also wanted a different and better world or life. I guess Tiana kinda did...but it was not nearly as touched upon as the other princesses.

By the way Amy, Snow White wanted a better life, too. In fact all of them probably wanted both love and a better life.

Now I understand that Tiana may have a girl who didn't care about becoming a princess and going on a grand, big adventure. But then that means her film will be just as down to Earth as she is. As you can see, that is then less grand than the other films.

And you know, Tiana herself really bugged me, being a funless workaholic who didn't believe in wishing or magic or the very things Disney was all about...

I liked this movie, but I think I would have liked it more with the first idea when the heroine was a chambermaid and she dreamed of being, I dunno, a jazz princess. I was interested much more...

[blackcauldron85]

Alan Menken would have made a more powerful film score. He just would have.

***


By the way Amy, Snow White wanted a better life, too. In fact all of them probably wanted both love and a better life.

Score-wise, the score isn't my favorite...I meant more the songs than the score as far as being a favorite...so in that regard, yes, I personally feel that I would like the score better if it were Menken, since his scores are always my favorites. But song-wise, I feel that Newman did an excellent job.

***

And, well, I was basing that more on "I'm Wishing" and "Someday My Prince Will Come," but you're definitely right; I think that a better life would be brought by a man for her, to sweep her away from the Queen.

[Disney Duster]

Well, when I said score I also meant the songs. I thought scores could include the songs, too.

You may think they are great...but...Menken would have done really, really great...at least more powerful.

[jpanimation]

Well, when I said score I also meant the songs. I thought scores could include the songs, too.

I think grouping them together can make things a little confusing. Since the Academy Awards has two separate categories for songs and scores, I think we should treat them as two separate components.

You may think they are great...but...Menken would have done really, really great...at least more powerful.

True

[Atlantica]

The DVD finially came out in the UK on Monday, picked up my copy

I was the only one in my family to go to the cinema to watch the movie, so we all sat down together to watch it, and have to say they all adored it. Especially Louis for some reason ! They also thought it was wonderful to see hand drawn animation again.

Just thought I'd share

[tsom]

Amy, I agree with everything you've written! Also, Menken has had flops too. What if he had done the music and it wasn't up to par? Then what?

There are many people I know who would love to own their own business, so at least that aprt is relatable. Everyone has different dreams. If Tiana's dream was to be a jazz princess or Queen of Mardi Gras, there would be people complaining "ah, we've seen this before. When will Disney do something new?," etc. Everyone has different goals and aspirations. What if Tiana had wanted to be a fashion desginer? Or a silent-screen actress? Or a writer? I don't know if I'm making any sense...

And, I thought the movie was quite magical for a 1920s American setting. The Evening star, the church/wedding, Charlotte's mainsion/neighborhood, etc.