Col. Wilkerson: Bush knew Guantánamo prisoners were innocent

[Goliath]

From: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w ... 092435.ece

George W. Bush 'knew Guantánamo prisoners were innocent'

George W. Bush, Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld covered up that hundreds of innocent men were sent to the Guantánamo Bay prison camp because they feared that releasing them would harm the push for war in Iraq and the broader War on Terror, according to a new document obtained by The Times.

The accusations were made by Lawrence Wilkerson, a top aide to Colin Powell, the former Republican Secretary of State, in a signed declaration to support a lawsuit filed by a Guantánamo detainee. It is the first time that such allegations have been made by a senior member of the Bush Administration.

Colonel Wilkerson, who was General Powell’s chief of staff when he ran the State Department, was most critical of Mr Cheney and Mr Rumsfeld. He claimed that the former Vice-President and Defence Secretary knew that the majority of the initial 742 detainees sent to Guantánamo in 2002 were innocent but believed that it was “politically impossible to release them”.

General Powell, who left the Bush Administration in 2005, angry about the misinformation that he unwittingly gave the world when he made the case for the invasion of Iraq at the UN, is understood to have backed Colonel Wilkerson’s declaration.

Colonel Wilkerson, a long-time critic of the Bush Administration’s approach to counter-terrorism and the war in Iraq, claimed that the majority of detainees — children as young as 12 and men as old as 93, he said — never saw a US soldier when they were captured. He said that many were turned over by Afghans and Pakistanis for up to $5,000. Little or no evidence was produced as to why they had been taken.

He also claimed that one reason Mr Cheney and Mr Rumsfeld did not want the innocent detainees released was because “the detention efforts would be revealed as the incredibly confused operation that they were”. This was “not acceptable to the Administration and would have been severely detrimental to the leadership at DoD [Mr Rumsfeld at the Defence Department]”.

Referring to Mr Cheney, Colonel Wilkerson, who served 31 years in the US Army, asserted: “He had absolutely no concern that the vast majority of Guantánamo detainees were innocent ... If hundreds of innocent individuals had to suffer in order to detain a handful of hardcore terrorists, so be it.”

He alleged that for Mr Cheney and Mr Rumsfeld “innocent people languishing in Guantánamo for years was justified by the broader War on Terror and the small number of terrorists who were responsible for the September 11 attacks”.

He added: “I discussed the issue of the Guantánamo detainees with Secretary Powell. I learnt that it was his view that it was not just Vice-President Cheney and Secretary Rumsfeld, but also President Bush who was involved in all of the Guantánamo decision making.”

Mr Cheney and Mr Rumsfeld, Colonel Wilkerson said, deemed the incarceration of innocent men acceptable if some genuine militants were captured, leading to a better intelligence picture of Iraq at a time when the Bush Administration was desperate to find a link between Saddam Hussein and 9/11, “thus justifying the Administration’s plans for war with that country”.

He signed the declaration in support of Adel Hassan Hamad, a Sudanese man who was held at Guantánamo Bay from March 2003 until December 2007. Mr Hamad claims that he was tortured by US agents while in custody and yesterday filed a damages action against a list of American officials.

Defenders of Guantánamo said that detainees began to be released as early as September 2002, nine months after the first prisoners were sent to the jail at the US naval base in Cuba. By the time Mr Bush left office more than 530 detainees had been freed.

A spokesman for Mr Bush said of Colonel Wilkerson’s allegations: “We are not going to have any comment on that.” A former associate to Mr Rumsfeld said that Mr Wilkerson's assertions were completely untrue.

The associate said the former Defence Secretary had worked harder than anyone to get detainees released and worked assiduously to keep the prison population as small as possible. Mr Cheney’s office did not respond.

There are currently about 180 detainees left in the facility.

[ajmrowland]

HOO, BOY! Wait 'til the boys back home here 'bout this!

[Lazario]

Gee,

and maybe if they talk about this during American Idol, House, and Lost... the public might actually pay attention to it.

[ajmrowland]

Well, ppl turn to fiction in bad times.

[milojthatch]

And yet Tea Baggers defend this?! I will never understand many of my countrymen's totally disregard fro human life.

[jpanimation]

And yet Tea Baggers defend this?! I will never understand many of my countrymen's totally disregard fro human life.

Do they? I thought they were protesting taxes with misrepresentation and the budgetary disregard of congress contributing to the skyrocketing national deficit (with the health reform bill being one of them). I don't think the tea party movement would be soo off-base as to defend the actions of the Busch Administration (who, with congress, started the bailouts and spending they're protesting). Maybe I missed it but I didn't see anyone in the article defending these actions.

As for Gitmo, they need to worry less about shutting it down, and moving detainees, and more about looking into the evidence justifying the detainee's imprisonment and whether it's legal or even exists. I don't believe for a second that shutting down Gitmo and moving potentially innocent detainees to ANOTHER prison facility for who knows how long is a solution as much as it's an evasion. What's weird is I always thought there was more then 180 detainees at Gitmo. With that in mind, it shouldn't be taking so long to review the roster of detainees and start freeing the innocents. Then again, nothing seems to get done in this country as I'm still waiting for them to repeal the Patriot Act.

"By the time Mr Bush left office more than 530 detainees had been freed"
- wow, thats a lot of fuck ups. Did they apologize and give reparations? Did anyone get fired because of this? Doubt it.

[Lazario]

As for Gitmo, they need to worry less about shutting it down, and moving detainees, and more about looking into the evidence justifying the detainee's imprisonment and whether it's legal or even exists. I don't believe for a second that shutting down Gitmo and moving potentially innocent detainees to ANOTHER prison facility for who knows how long is a solution as much as it's an evasion. What's weird is I always thought there was more then 180 detainees at Gitmo. With that in mind, it shouldn't be taking so long to review the roster of detainees and start freeing the innocents. Then again, nothing seems to get done in this country as I'm still waiting for them to repeal the Patriot Act.

"By the time Mr Bush left office more than 530 detainees had been freed"
- wow, thats a lot of fuck ups. Did they apologize and give reparations? Did anyone get fired because of this? Doubt it.

Got to say it, Goliath - what about this? It's like Obama doesn't really care about being seen as an opponent of what Bush's administration did...

The first thing he should do to prove he isn't another Bush is to kick the guy's ass and start putting people in jail for what they did. That might actually make the guy look like the hero everyone thought he was.

[Goliath]

Do they? I thought they were protesting taxes with misrepresentation and the budgetary disregard of congress contributing to the skyrocketing national deficit (with the health reform bill being one of them).

Oh please... They are working-class Americans whose taxes under Obama have gone done or stayed exactly the same... yet they scream and protest about "tax hikes". When Bush created the biggest deficit in American history (borrowing more money than the previous 42 administrations *combined*), these people didn't utter a word...

So no, it's not about taxes or the deficit. If they were really concerned with those kind of things, we would have heard from them when Bush was in office. One of their claims is that Obama isn't eligible for the presidency. Yet we never heard from them during the Florida 2000 debacle, when the Supreme Court handed the presidency to Bush.

So why *are* these people protesting? Well, if you look at the signs they're carrying with them, you say Obama depicted as Hitler, or Stalin, calling Obama a facist or a communist... and asking for his birth certificate. Or telling him to go back to Kenya. These are not reasonable people. They are not informed about the issues, obviously. Not only are they conspiracy theorists, they are also... racists. "Birth certificate", "Kenya", "not eligible"... these are all code-words. They want to say a certain word soooooo badly, but they can't, because it's not the 1950s anymore. They want to say the N-word, but instead they use code language.

And these are not spontaneous outbursts of protesters... They are promoted and organized by Fox 'News' and Republican politicians and/or right-wing political organizations.

I don't think the tea party movement would be soo off-base as to defend the actions of the Busch Administration (who, with congress, started the bailouts and spending they're protesting). Maybe I missed it but I didn't see anyone in the article defending these actions.

I'm sure they would defend those actions by Bush. I think the Tea Party people are the "25 percenters", the 25% of people who, at the end of the Bush pResidency, still backed him no matter what... The group Stephen Colbert so adequately referred to as "backwash". They have been so scared about "the terr'rists" by their right-wing radio and tv hosts that they will accept any unlawful actions by their government, as long as the government says it's part ofd the "war on terror". (Unless you take away their guns, of course.)

Then again, nothing seems to get done in this country as I'm still waiting for them to repeal the Patriot Act.

They won't. Obama won't repeal the Patriot Act. It gives the president unprecedented power. No president wants to give up that kind of power. Just like so many violations of the Consitution by Bush that Obama hasn't repealed... If you want real change, you'll have to vote for the guy the tv networks say have the least chance of winning.

- wow, thats a lot of fuck ups. Did they apologize and give reparations? Did anyone get fired because of this? Doubt it.

No. Ever since Nixon said that "it's not illegal when the president does it", you can count on it that nobody in the cabinet will ever get fired/prosecuted for anything they did. Basically, the president and his secretaries are above the law. They don't have to abide to the law. They are free to do whatever they want. They're above the law. Nobody can touch them.

[Goliath]

Got to say it, Goliath - what about this? It's like Obama doesn't really care about being seen as an opponent of what Bush's administration did...

The first thing he should do to prove he isn't another Bush is to kick the guy's ass and start putting people in jail for what they did. That might actually make the guy look like the hero everyone thought he was.

I knew Obama wasn't that hero only six months after his inauguration. I knew it when he recognized the coup government of Honduras after their fraudulent elections. Now this might not mean much to you, when you compare it to Afghanistan, Iraq and the economy, but let me assure you, it means a lot to the regular people of one of the poorest countries in the Western hemisphere. That's when I knew Obama had the exact same foreign policy as the Bushes and Reagan before him.

The Honduran people, for the first time in their history, had a president who actually represented their interests. Manuel Zelaya raised the minimum wage by 60%, to assure the people of a living wage. He wanted to created much more policies for the poor, at the expense of the olicarchy, so the rich elite had the military topple him, and they installed a coup government, which scheduled "elections" under military siege. With political assassinations, disappearances and torture still rampant, the Obama-administrations has thrown its full support behind thw regime.

Like I said, this will seem like a very tiny, insignificant matter to most Americans, and I doubt it will have made the tv news headlines. But if an American president is prepared to crush the democratic rights of regular people in poor countries to further his own political goals (president Zelaya wanted to close the American military base; the new regime wants to keep it open), I know this is not "change we can believe in".

But please, let's get back on topic. Try to imagine this: the president of a democratic, Western country who keeps hundreds of people in jail under less-than-human circumstances (torture), while he knows for a fact they're innocent, just so he can further his own political agenda... Just to sell the war in Iraq, which was bogus to begin with! And he will never, ever, be punished. Instead, when he passes away, the next president will speak kind words about him and all tv networks will sob and cry... like they did with Reagan.

[ajmrowland]

Unfortunately, that's probably the very detail that causes our government to go through this downwards spiral in the first place. We've been a World Power for a century or so, and like all the others, we're being kicked off throne due to just a couple handfuls of people who decide to get cocky with it. It's official: no one in government remembers what they learned in History class.

[jpanimation]

If you want real change, you'll have to vote for the guy the tv networks say have the least chance of winning.

I did. Regardless of how much my vote is "wasted," I'll continue voting third party. The two main political parties are corrupt and run by corporations, so anyone they suggest can bite me. While everyone else was arguing as to the difference between McCain and Obama (still trying to figure that one out), I wanted someone who wasn't rich and actually gave a shit about the people.

Basically, the president and his secretaries are above the law. They don't have to abide to the law. They are free to do whatever they want. They're above the law. Nobody can touch them.

This is no different then Congress. These people get away with murder (literally). It seems every bill they pass has tax breaks for their privately owned corporations or special favors for their biggest backers (even tax payer money), even if it has NOTHING to do with the bill. Not to mention they pay each other off for votes, they don't pay their taxes, they use taxpayer money for pet projects/vacations, and they consistently pass illegal bills that go against the constitution. Everything they've done a normal citizen would've been arrested for by now.

This is why I want to cleanse Congress by voting ALL the incumbents out, regardless, and get some people who haven't been corrupted in there. As it is, we seem to have to wait for the incumbents to dye of old age to get them out of office as they all seem to make a career out of politics. The president got term limits for good reason, so should Congress.

Worth checking out:
http://www.crewsmostcorrupt.org/

[Goliath]

Amen, jpanimation, amen! The only way to change this all is campaign finance reform. Half the time the people in Congress are busy begging for money from their donaters. Only public financing can change that. But who's gonna vote for that? If they do, they'll lose their donations. Which basically means it will never happen. It's even getting worse with the recent Supreme Court decision that corporations can spend unlimited amounts of money sponsoring politicians.

Back on-topic:

General Powell, who left the Bush Administration in 2005, angry about the misinformation that he unwittingly gave the world when he made the case for the invasion of Iraq at the UN, is understood to have backed Colonel Wilkerson’s declaration.

I'm angry the BBC phrased this the way they did. Is there anbody who still believes that Powell was "mislead"?

[milojthatch]

Do they? I thought they were protesting taxes with misrepresentation and the budgetary disregard of congress contributing to the skyrocketing national deficit (with the health reform bill being one of them).

Oh please... They are working-class Americans whose taxes under Obama have gone done or stayed exactly the same... yet they scream and protest about "tax hikes". When Bush created the biggest deficit in American history (borrowing more money than the previous 42 administrations *combined*), these people didn't utter a word...

So no, it's not about taxes or the deficit. If they were really concerned with those kind of things, we would have heard from them when Bush was in office. One of their claims is that Obama isn't eligible for the presidency. Yet we never heard from them during the Florida 2000 debacle, when the Supreme Court handed the presidency to Bush.

So why *are* these people protesting? Well, if you look at the signs they're carrying with them, you say Obama depicted as Hitler, or Stalin, calling Obama a facist or a communist... and asking for his birth certificate. Or telling him to go back to Kenya. These are not reasonable people. They are not informed about the issues, obviously. Not only are they conspiracy theorists, they are also... racists. "Birth certificate", "Kenya", "not eligible"... these are all code-words. They want to say a certain word soooooo badly, but they can't, because it's not the 1950s anymore. They want to say the N-word, but instead they use code language.

And these are not spontaneous outbursts of protesters... They are promoted and organized by Fox 'News' and Republican politicians and/or right-wing political organizations.

I don't think the tea party movement would be soo off-base as to defend the actions of the Busch Administration (who, with congress, started the bailouts and spending they're protesting). Maybe I missed it but I didn't see anyone in the article defending these actions.

I'm sure they would defend those actions by Bush. I think the Tea Party people are the "25 percenters", the 25% of people who, at the end of the Bush pResidency, still backed him no matter what... The group Stephen Colbert so adequately referred to as "backwash". They have been so scared about "the terr'rists" by their right-wing radio and tv hosts that they will accept any unlawful actions by their government, as long as the government says it's part ofd the "war on terror". (Unless you take away their guns, of course.)

Then again, nothing seems to get done in this country as I'm still waiting for them to repeal the Patriot Act.

They won't. Obama won't repeal the Patriot Act. It gives the president unprecedented power. No president wants to give up that kind of power. Just like so many violations of the Consitution by Bush that Obama hasn't repealed... If you want real change, you'll have to vote for the guy the tv networks say have the least chance of winning.

- wow, thats a lot of fuck ups. Did they apologize and give reparations? Did anyone get fired because of this? Doubt it.

No. Ever since Nixon said that "it's not illegal when the president does it", you can count on it that nobody in the cabinet will ever get fired/prosecuted for anything they did. Basically, the president and his secretaries are above the law. They don't have to abide to the law. They are free to do whatever they want. They're above the law. Nobody can touch them.

Exactly! The Tea Baggers are defending this. Anyone who watches Fox News would know that. The fact is that there are a lot of people who hate that the GOP lost the election. People who attack Obama all the time talk about how they wish Bush was back in. Why? So we can kill more 12-year-olds? It's sick and any American who defends it is sick too.

[jpanimation]

Exactly! The Tea Baggers are defending this.

Once again, proof? Maybe a statement the tea party movement made defending this, a quote, a clip online, a picket sign claiming they defend wrongful imprisonment? Anything other then your assumption. Unless you're using the term "teabagger" to represent the far-right, instead of the tea party movement, then what you say has no basis.

Also, the term "teabagger" is offensive. My brother is a cop and he has gone to a couple of rallies with his partner (who's black) and your name calling and false accusations about him are offensive. As someone who attended protests against the Iraq War and against the Bush Administration, I find it funny that his current protest is suddenly equated to nothing but racism or mindless partisanship (considering he's Democrat). I'd like to see your (or whoever made this claim) proof that my brother is a racist or that everyone at these rallies supported Bush.

Of course you have some members of the GOP or talk radio heading some of these rallies (which pisses me off), trying to take advantage of people's anger for political gain, but not at the ones my brother attended. Considering he took pictures and video, and I didn't see anything racist is enough for me. I'd trust it over the media any day (unless the media has suddenly become serious journalism and without bias). My brother was just happy that his anger and distraught with the government is finally getting attention (he was happy to talk with people there who feel the same way) and to brush it off as pure racism is only belittling serious concerns most people have with the government (unless you think corruption is non-existent and congress is doing a bang-up job?).

Sure you get a few of the ass-holes who are there out of racism; holding signs that show their ignorance while they parrot what they heard on TV, but they should just be ignored (if they keep getting attention, they'll keep showing up). It really is a shame that these few have to show up and ruin the whole thing. The "news" will concentrate on this minority and equate it to the entire movement, which is an absolute shame. I'm all for what it represents (I'm really upset with the government) but I feel its all for naught until the talk-show hosts/Fox News/politicians quite trying to use it and the racist/ignorant attention whores quite showing up (as they just ruin it for everyone there with ligament concerns).

[Goliath]

The term "teabagger" was coined by the Tea Party movement itself. They identify themselves that way; they wear the name as an honorary title. Just because they're too stupid to know what it means, doesn't mean we shouldn't make fun of it.

Where were the teabaggers when Bush was in office? Bush actually created a concentration camp in Guantánamo Bay where he held hundreds of prisoners who never had a trial, a lawyer and in most cases didn't even know why they were there. At the same time, Bush was running secret CIA prisons in Eastern Europe. Reports have come out from which we know what kind of horrible torture techniques the personell of those prisons carried out against the inmates. Where were the teabaggers, who are now holding up signs saying "Obama = Hitler"?

The Tea Party movement thrives on people like Sarah Palin and Michelle Bachmann, who are considered rockstars within that movement. Palin said that Obama's health care plan was about "death panels". The people at those rallies ate it up. No offense to your brother, jp, but those are not informed people. They're angry at Obama's tax raises, while actually their taxes have gone down or stayed the same. They don't have a clue what they're protesting against. But how could anybody, when they hold up signs saying Obama is a "communist nazi"? That's a combination that's not even possible!

I'm not saying mainstream media can be trusted to provide an objective look at reality. You know how I've railed against them in the past. But it's a sign of weakness to hide behind that, and say that all their coverage of the teabaggers have (purposefully) misrepresented all Tea Party gatherings. And if you don't believe the media, check YouTube for video's these people have made themselves. You'll see the same thing. People asking for Obama's birth certificate, telling Obama to "go back to Kenya" etc. You really think this kind of vitriol would have happened if Hillary Clinton or John Edwards had become president?

"Only two percent of the people in a movement about taxes, named after a tax revolt, have the slightest idea what's going on... with taxes".

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[jpanimation]

The term "teabagger" was coined by the Tea Party movement itself. They identify themselves that way; they wear the name as an honorary title. Just because they're too stupid to know what it means, doesn't mean we shouldn't make fun of it.

No, the specific term "teabagger" was coined by CNN and MSNBC. Where's your facts on this one? Most people understand what that means and I doubt they would wear a vulgar sexual term proudly. Did you see them wearing shirts saying "proud to be a teabagger" or something similar to which you base your claim? I know my brother is quite annoyed with it. Your statements are baseless.

Where were the teabaggers when Bush was in office?

Like I said, my brother was there and now he's here. Are we suddenly making up excuses NOT to protest Congress (the very same one that was there during the Bush reign)? Has all the problems the Bush protesters had suddenly been fixed? If not, why are we hating on people protesting these problems now instead of joining them? The only reason to suddenly stop protesting, when the same problems with the government still exist, is pure partisanship and hypocrisy. I'd also like it if you'd stop calling my brother a teabagger.

Bush actually created a concentration camp in Guantánamo Bay where he held hundreds of prisoners who never had a trial, a lawyer and in most cases didn't even know why they were there. At the same time, Bush was running secret CIA prisons in Eastern Europe. Reports have come out from which we know what kind of horrible torture techniques the personell of those prisons carried out against the inmates. Where were the teabaggers, who are now holding up signs saying "Obama = Hitler"?

The "Obama = Hitler" nuts were probably at home, in ignorant bliss, as they are far-right/racist sheep. Luckily, they do not represent this movement, which basically wants lower taxes and smaller government (sign me up). They are the extreme minority. There will always be nuts at rallies/protests and they ruin it for everyone. The problem being the people with the least to say are usually the loudest (signs count), so they get all the attention, and leave the silent majority who know what they're talking about to be misrepresented (including by the obnoxious speakers). The majority of the people have been forced out of their shells and just now woke up due to the sharp increase in unemployment and loss of their savings (which didn't happen until the end of the Bush reign). I'm sure if those major events happened earlier, the protests would've happened sooner.

The Tea Party movement thrives on people like Sarah Palin and Michelle Bachmann, who are considered rockstars within that movement. Palin said that Obama's health care plan was about "death panels". The people at those rallies ate it up. No offense to your brother, jp, but those are not informed people. They're angry at Obama's tax raises, while actually their taxes have gone down or stayed the same. They don't have a clue what they're protesting against. But how could anybody, when they hold up signs saying Obama is a "communist nazi"? That's a combination that's not even possible!

My brother hates Palin (she annoys me too). Have you ever seen one of the Tea Parties not gathered by the GOP? The smaller, local ones? The people at them are quite different then the ones you see on TV. They're the ones not being exploited. Once again, the Obama is a "communist nazi" nuts are the minority, but maybe you have some factual evidence otherwise. Most people attending just disagree with the Bush 2.0 tactics of government spending and expansion that Congress is continuing to do, despite the will of the people. Obama's health care plan isn't inciting anger over fake death panels but the fact that it just increases our counties spending without actually "fixing" healthcare. Right now its just a mess-of-a-bill that is in no way fiscally responsible.

And if you don't believe the media, check YouTube for video's these people have made themselves. You'll see the same thing. People asking for Obama's birth certificate, telling Obama to "go back to Kenya" etc. You really think this kind of vitriol would have happened if Hillary Clinton or John Edwards had become president?

Once again, the conspirator/racist nuts that can be tracked back to the far-right are not representations of the overall Tea Party movement. I have yet to see factual basis for these assumptions. Just a couple of pictures/videos online of the nut-jobs who are the minorities in these rallies. I haven't seen any evidence that they are the majority of this movement. We'll see, when at the upcoming elections the Republicans lose big time due to a split-vote, in which only the far-right continues to vote for the Republican candidates. My brother brought home some pamphlets from the rallies he attended with all the corrupt politicians (pretty much all of them) and it lists what they've done to make the list, then it encourages you to vote out all incumbents. If Republicans think they're getting support from the Tea Party movement by pretending they're fiscally conservative (a platform they continually run on but have yet to hold up) they'll be in for a shock.

Congress is upset that the Tea Party movement wants to vote out all incumbents. There's a conflict of interest here. This is why they use all their corporate connections, gained trough years of corruption, to start this whole teabagger thing to belittle the movement (which works to Republican advantage trying to incite anger). For all we know those people holding the racist signs are astroturf sent by Congress to discredit the movement. It's standard for Congress to belittle a movement and then play the sympathy card for political gain (that way Democrats gain off of sympathy by the movement while Republicans gain off of anger from the movement, both fear re-election due to this movement and have to give the illusion they're different by using the protesters for either anger/sympathy). Politics have become very intricate now.

As to whether this would've happened if Hillary Clinton or John Edwards had become president, that depends. Would they've stopped funding for the Bush bailouts or continued it with a new series of bailouts like Obama, even after the first set having caused financial disaster for most families (losing jobs, homes, and savings). Of course, if they had rallies like the current ones, you'd get extremist at those either spouting sexist things about Hilary or sexually vulgar things about Edwards (after his affair was revealed). In those circumstances, those extremist wouldn't represent that movement either.

"Only two percent of the people in a movement about taxes, named after a tax revolt, have the slightest idea what's going on... with taxes".

I assume that quote refers to the poll CBS News/New York Times took that found that only 2% of Tea Party supporters were aware that President Obama had cut taxes. Considering my brother talked to people there who all seemed to know what they were talking about, I doubt that poll is accurate. I'd venture to guess that the people that participated in that poll are the same vocal nuts-jobs that [at the rallies] parrot crap from Fox News. You know, the only ones the media concentrates on (oh wait, that poll was done by the media and the quote comes from a personality in the media).

I personally feel that he [Obama] didn't do enough to alleviate the tax burden and want the FairTax to be implemented. Income taxes are anything but fair and they just let the government take our hard earned money from us before we even get it to decide what to do with it. Its really just been a burden on the working class for the past 100 years. If I had all the money I've paid in Income Taxes back, I'd have my Student Loan paid off right now. I bet a lot of families struggling to make ends meat could really use that large chunk of their paycheck back to just live off of. Let the government feed off of our spending/consuming, not our living.

[Goliath]

Look, I'm not even going to bother to discuss this point-by-point. If you want to defend the pointless, the clueless, the ignorant and the racist, that's your right. But don't expect me to take you seriously when you do.

Defending teabaggers like they have some just, noble cause clearly shows a detachment from reality. You try to downplay the nutty, crazy, vitriolic, racist and nasty elements of the 'movement', while that's actually the core element of the group. They are NOT, I repeat: NOT, only a "tiny" segment of the Tea Party people. They are the core, the mainstream of the movement. They are batshit crazy, hateful and violent.

You try to make them look like a group with legitimate complaints. Like I already explained over and over again: they're not. They don't even know what they're protesting against. I already stated the majority of these people have seen their taxes go down and they're still protesting Obama's "tax hikes". You don't adress this, but you repeat their claim. As if it has never been refuted. Do you expect me to keep talking to a brick wall?

Judging from your posts, you come off as a teabagger yourself (and I'm starting to doubt if that "brother" of yours isn't just you, yourself). Fine, but don't expect me to take anyone seriously who defends a 'movement' that's headed by nitwits, hatemongers and racists like Palin, Bachmann and Limbaugh.

And when it comes to taxes: if America wants to get out of debt, Obama should raise taxes for people making over $ 200,000 a year (not starting with $ 250,000) not to the meager 39% where it was under Clinton, but to at least 50%. (The top tax rate under the Republican Eisenhower was 95% and the rich and the country as a whole were doing great.)