Dr. Syn / Scarecrow of Romney Marsh needs to be remastered

[Richard--W]

Paul Beeson was one of the great, great, great Directors of Photography. He shot a dozen films for Disney from the 1950s up through the 1970s. Some of his best work is in Dr. Syn / The Scarecrow of Romney Marsh. There is a lot of day-for-night shooting in this film. Typically, Beeson's day-for-night reel was always professional, with faces and figures illuminated in the "darkness."

The Walt Disney Treasures set, however, is incorrectly mastered. The backgrounds are bright and the faces and figures are dark. We can't really tell what's going in these long day-for-night scenes which take up roughly half the film and half the length of each episode. The telecine operator gets it all wrong. The set needs to be completely remastered. Disney should never have released it looking this way

[Flanger-Hanger]

Are you the Marky of Disney live action films?

If you think you can do better or know better than the individuals who did the restoration, feel free to write a hand written letter to Disney or restore it yourself.

[Richard--W]

Grow Up.

[merlinjones]

I thought it looked really great! Especially since we hadn't seen a fresh print struck at least since the 1970's - - the masters used on Disney Channel and VHS in the 80's were so muddy, dark and grainy you couldn't even see the show! No matter what, I thank the powers that be for finally giving Dr. Syn back to the public in such a crisp state.

[Flanger-Hanger]

Grow Up.

Don't ever change, doll.

You come to a forum to illustrate a point without any pictorial evidence, written reports or credentials to support your view begin the correct one and expect anybody to notice or care? And on a forum that's more likely to care about the latest Ariel Barbie than a live action WDT set?

I'm siding with merlin on this one.

[merlinjones]

I certainly respect the OP's critical and creative opinion though and his right to express it freely as a consumer. Aesthetically, he may have a point - - for me, it's just a relief to have any Scarecrow at all at this point - - after 20 years of the film being in virtual limbo. Looks like they spent some dough to get it restored in both formats yet, so I'm grateful.

[Flanger-Hanger]

I certainly respect the OP's critical and creative opinion though and his right to express it freely as a consumer. Aesthetically, he may have a point - -

Looking at screenshots on an HD display, I don't see he point. For all we know, his or her display could be set up incorrectly and maybe the brightness needs to be adjusted? What I see is consistent visibility for the day for night shooting. I do not see dark faces at all. He or she also uses the word "we" in the post implying we all think the same way and makes statements without support, insisting it is fact. There's no "IMO" to accompany "is incorrectly mastered". I'd respect the "opinion" more of the OP, if it were treated as such and backed up with something. Right now it's just a lone angry rant, muffled by the praise us Dr. Syn fans have right now for finally owning this title.

...for me, it's just a relief to have any Scarecrow at all at this point - - after 20 years of the film being in virtual limbo. Looks like they spent some dough to get it restored in both formats yet, so I'm grateful.

And hopefully we won't have to wait another 20 years for the Blu-ray release!

[Richard--W]

My post was written in a calm relaxed voice not an angry rant. The anger is in "Flanger-Hangar's" head, not mine, and his reaction is way over the top.

I have a great affection for The Scarecrow of Romnry Marsh and I'm sincerely disappointed in how the day-for-night scenes are timed. It is a common mistake nowadays in the transfer of old films to the digital realm.

Restoration, transfer, mastering, telecine operations -- all different things. I leave it to "Flanger-Hangar" to learn for himself what is what.

I certainly respect the OP's critical and creative opinion though and his right to express it freely as a consumer.

Thanks.

Aesthetically, he may have a point - -

Check.

My post is technically correct.

the masters used on Disney Channel and VHS in the 80's were so muddy, dark and grainy you couldn't even see the show! No matter what, I thank the powers that be for finally giving Dr. Syn back to the public in such a crisp state.

No disagreement from me insofar as that goes.

All I did was make an honest statement about a film. About a film, not about any member here. It is inappropriate for "Flangar-Hangar" to attack me personally because he doesn't agree with my statement about the film. Disagreements about a film are fine, but personal attacks are inappropriate at any time.

[WilbyDaniels]

Richard W.,
I agree with you 100 % about Flanger???'s remarks. He needs to grow up.

[Flanger-Hanger]

It is a common mistake nowadays in the transfer of old films to the digital realm.

Examples?

Restoration, transfer, mastering, telecine operations -- all different things. I leave it to "Flanger-Hangar" to learn for himself what is what.

I'll leave it to you to also learn how to spell my name correctly.

My post is technically correct.

Why? Without examples "too dark" is a vague description of a personal reaction that may not apply to everyone. Without pictures of the prints used to create the new master or knowledge of what was done afterwords, there is no basis of comparison for anyone willing to learn or comprehend your post. In addition to other factors that could affect what you are seeing on your display or what display you are using. Telling me to go do research to understand what's going on in your head will not explain everything. You assume everyone will agree with you because of what? Such is the problem with posts criticizing restoration work.

You have done nothing to show your post is "correct" in any fashion, regardless of your supposed knowledge of telecine operations. Do you have any filming experience with the process in question, what "research" did you do to come to a conclusion that this and other films suffer from these problems? Can you cite others who share a similar view of this issue based on the work they have done?

Finally, You still haven't explained why posting here will get Disney's attention and possibly restore the film to meet your expectations as to what it "should" look like. Writing a hand-written letter to them will do more making a post here.

Looking at DVD Beaver's review for the movie, it only complains about edge enhancement. DVD Verdict's review has this to say however:

"The one problem are the film's "day for night" shots. I know it was common practice of the era, but they were unrealistic back then and appear even more so today. The restoration team worked hard to balance the brightness and contrast, so we can actually see what's going on. Their efforts are well rewarded on the 151 minute version, but for some reason seem less so on the 98 minute print. And yet a side-by-side comparison of the two show they same scenes nearly identical. Not sure what to attribute to overall lessening impression to, but the hunt for the escaped American is the best example of where the filtering fails miserably. As one might expect, the night shoots on the Pinewood sets are a dramatically different story. Well lit and exceptionally staged, there's a clarity and warmth you won't find in the location shots. The prison escape sequence holds the greatest evidence of this"

Looking at the screenshots posted (http://www.dvdverdict.com/reviews/drsynscarecrow.php) , they look the same so the "lessening impression" could be the fault of the reviewer. As for the "filtering failing" could that not be a result of the original film crew? Without knowing the circumstances of the shoot or the restoration I wouldn't know. And as for the studio shots looking better than the location filming, that would seem logical as the lighting is obviously more controlled in a studio setting than it is outdoors.

This site's review criticizes the film's transfer as begin dark, but not just for the outdoor nighttime sets and is unsure about whether or not that was the intent.

[Richard--W]

.. Finally, You still haven't explained why posting here will get Disney's attention and possibly restore the film to meet your expectations as to what it "should" look like. ...

Who is doing the ranting? Who said anything about getting Disney's attention and restoring the film again? You are making this stuff up, and projecting your own baggage onto my simple statement.

All I said is that the day-for-night photography in Dr. Syn is incorrectly timed on the DVD, and it should not have been released this way. I've read harsher criticisms of Disney films all over this forum. I know whereof I speak, and I will leave it at that.

I have nothing to prove to Paper Hanger. There are perfectly good answers to these challenges, but if I write a long post, rebut every attack and prove the minutia of every point, I will only be feeding the rant. He or she is going to belittle me no matter what I say or prove.

This is harassment. This is a personal attack. I won't be drawn into it. I really do love the film, and I stand by my statement that the day-for-night photography is incorrectly timed. It's not to supposed to look this way.

[Flanger-Hanger]

I really do love the film, and I stand by my statement that the day-for-night photography is incorrectly timed. It's not to supposed to look this way.

It's obvious that you feel strongly and confident about your opinion. In your original post you states that the film needs to be completely remastered and it should never have been released this way. You've also stated that this is a common occurrence in film restoration and yet the team of individuals paid to do this kind of work have not come across the information that you have found on this aspect of film production.

Would it not be in your best interest to contact Disney? If you don't then won't this problem likely happen again with some other film, and won't Dr Syn. remain the same in the future?

Making a post here is like complaining to a carpenter that the baker ruined your order. The likelihood of anyone begin able to change the situation or care is not in your favor. Especially since this is some 16 months after the release of the DVD and Disney probably isn't tracking the reaction to this
title anymore.

This isn't about you personally, or even Dr. Syn. This about yet another UD post where someone has a strong, confident opinion on something and feels the need to make a post, yet not really do anything (such as the explanation of a plan) to solve the apparent problem or convince others that the opinion is right.

[Richard--W]

The day-for-night scenes in Dr Syn / The Scarecrow of Romney Marsh are too dark because they are incorrectly timed. The film should not have been issued on DVD this way.

Making a post here is like complaining to a carpenter that the baker ruined your order. The likelihood of anyone begin able to change the situation or care is not in your favor. Especially since this is some 16 months after the release of the DVD and Disney probably isn't tracking the reaction to this title anymore.

If it doesn't matter why do you bother to post here?

Why don't you shut up and stop harassing people?

This might have turned into an interesting discussion with other Disney fans if you hadn't turned it into some kind of psychotic fit.

Why don't you grow up and go get yourself a life?

[disneyboy20022]

Richard - I think the hostility around this subject is because.....it never ends.....about colors and darkness or light in film restoratioin.....im sure there are people that are happy with the way it is....and im sure that there are people would agree you Richard.....and yes perhaps it could have a better restoration....but honestly imo its not like they put a vhs transfer on it and besides...some of these films are so old that if they start restoring them too much...it won't look like the same film....The Treasures was basicly aimed at fans of the classic retro Disney that find the current Disney style Hannah and Spy Pooh well....not anywhere near teh standards of yesteryear's disney...so imo we were lucky to get any of the treasures.....should all of them been restored to glory yes.....but theres only so much restoration you can do before it looks too restored?

[MattDean]

And on a forum that's more likely to care about the latest Ariel Barbie than a live action WDT set?

Are you sure about this statement?

Where's YOUR evidence?

This thoughtless remark is far more questionable than anything Richard--W posted, not to mention patronising and disparaging!

Matt

[Flanger-Hanger]

Are you sure about this statement?

Where's YOUR evidence?

This thoughtless remark is far more questionable than anything Richard--W posted, not to mention patronising and disparaging!

Matt

Hyperbole?

[merlinjones]

It's wonderful that that someone is passionate about a film and preserving a filmmaker's intent! If only it was more about the movies again and less about the marketing...

[Duckburger]

Hyperbole?

Most definitely.

These kinds of topics never go right. Never.

[Richard--W]

Richard - I think the hostility around this subject is because.....

There was no hostility in my initial post nor in my initial reply. I made my statement, which comes out of my professional experience, and I stand by it. But the moderators should not permit Paper Hanger to harass people like this. Enough is enough.

it never ends.....about colors and darkness or light in film restoration.....im sure there are people that are happy with the way it is....and im sure that there are people would agree you Richard.....and yes perhaps it could have a better restoration....but honestly imo its not like they put a vhs transfer on it and besides...some of these films are so old that if they start restoring them too much...it won't look like the same film....The Treasures was basicly aimed at fans of the classic retro Disney that find the current Disney style Hannah and Spy Pooh well....not anywhere near the standards of yesteryear's disney...so imo we were lucky to get any of the treasures.....should all of them been restored to glory yes.....but theres only so much restoration you can do before it looks too restored?

I don't see a problem with the restoration of The Scarecrow of Romney Marsh / Dr. Syn Alias the Scarecrow. It's an exquisite looking film and an exquisite restoration, clean, sharp, and richly saturated. I could turn off the sound and just enjoy the film on the basis of its composition and color alone. There's no emulsion in existence anymore that gives you that kind of color. I'm watching it now, as I write.

My disappointment is in how the restoration has been transferred to DVD. The day for night photography is problematic to begin with. It doesn't spoil the film for me, but I do wish some other steps had been tried. Sometimes, digital tools do not address photochemical issues. I give this Treasure my highest recommendation in any case.

I have all the Walt Disney Treasures and about 150 other Disney DVD's, including all the pre-1980s titles that are available. Sometimes I have the same complaints that others here express about pan & scan when the film should be widescreen and anamorphic, or released on DVD without being properly restored first, but overall Disney's standards are impeccably high.

[MattDean]

Hyperbole?



This really is becoming an entertaining discussion!

Matt